ATP/Garrett Hate - failure GTX3076

[rfinkle2]

@chimmike, I'm down to throw down some cash towards the $250 in small claims.

Originally Posted by Dano I thing Garrett is to blame...they made the CHRA which is where the failure occurred. ATP only adds a hotside, drain line and coupler to the mix so they never touch the CHRA oil feed. I have a GTX3071 on the way and will compare the CHRA to my GT28. AFAIK absolutely no restrictor needed and in-fact will likely destroy the CHRA.

Where did you read that? (I know there is definitely conflict)... This is from Garrett's site..

We really need to know the oil feed line pressure.

Q. Does my turbo require an oil restrictor?
A. Oil requirements depend on the turbo's bearing system type. Garrett has two types of bearing systems; traditional journal bearing; and ball bearing. The journal bearing system in a turbo functions very similarly to the rod or crank bearings in an engine. These bearings require enough oil pressure to keep the components separated by a hydrodynamic film. If the oil pressure is too low, the metal components will come in contact causing premature wear and ultimately failure. If the oil pressure is too high, leakage may occur from the turbocharger seals. With that as background, an oil restrictor is generally not needed for a journal-bearing turbocharger except for those applications with oil-pressure-induced seal leakage. Remember to address all other potential causes of leakage first (e.g., inadequate/improper oil drain out of the turbocharger, excessive crankcase pressure, turbocharger past its useful service life, etc.) and use a restrictor as a last resort. Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines. Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo. The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.

[Chimmike]

Like I said, I had a long conversation with ATP about oil feed on this turbo and this car in particular, and they swear that no restrictor is best, that if you are getting a leak at the seals merely use a restrictor and the leak will stop, but they say this car does not need a restrictor.

I will be swapping to a -4 line and run the FP filter WITHOUT the restrictor. And I'll check the filter every oil change.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @chimmike, I'm down to throw down some cash towards the $250 in small claims. ]

I'd rather you throw down some cash towards my new CHRA, lol

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by chimmike Like I said, I had a long conversation with ATP about oil feed on this turbo and this car in particular, and they swear that no restrictor is best, that if you are getting a leak at the seals merely use a restrictor and the leak will stop, but they say this car does not need a restrictor. I will be swapping to a -4 line and run the FP filter WITHOUT the restrictor. And I'll check the filter every oil change. I'd rather you throw down some cash towards my new CHRA, lol

If it is allowed, it will be inbound.

[Mizzle]

I call b.s. if they can't show you the "restriction."

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I believe Bluestreak thinks the excessively long drain line they supply with the kit is the culprit.

Yep. My line was kinked and I'm sure it caused the oil to back up. At this point, I'm kinda nervous about my second one failing so I ordered this oil restrictor for testing. Nuts to ATP saying we don't need one.

Turbo Oil Feed Banjo Bolt Kit Garrett GT2871R GT2876R GT3071R Ball Bearing | eBay

[Chimmike]

Well, donation threads aren't allowed but I don't see why that isn't.

This is the filter I'm going to use. Earl's Performance 230304ERL - Earl's Performance Screen-Type Inline Oil Filters - Overview - SummitRacing.com

[silvapain]

Just rolling over and paying for a new part isn't the MSF way. We fuck couches.

I'm down to donate for a small claims filing.


Tapadatass

[kritz]

Let Ye Royal Couch Fornication commenceith!

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by silvapain Just rolling over and paying for a new part isn't the MSF way. We fuck couches. I'm down to donate for a small claims filing. Tapadatass

dude, I can't take the time off work for that shit. I don't have time.

[Mizzle]

Either they show you the restriction so you can get it tested to find out if it was something in your oil or a piece of ATP's line that broke off inside (or something else,) or else ATP fixes it. If Garrett found any issue to cause the problem, they're not liable, but then ATP is unless they can prove it was something on your car that did it.

[aviator79]

Well I was going to buy an GTX3076 (non ATP), but I think I am better off going with something else. Are all the failures ATP failures or are there any strait Garrett failures?

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by aviator79 Well I was going to buy an GTX3076 (non ATP), but I think I am better off going with something else. Are all the failures ATP failures or are there any strait Garrett failures?

All ATP does it put a hotside on the turbo, the failures have nothing to do with ATP unless it is there return or feed kits fucking up.

[helmetface]

So when smart people disagree I get confused:


@SPEED6 KILLAH @Tomas

What is the consensus with these ball-bearing bitches?

Oil restrictor, Yay or Nay?

Oil Filter in-line to turbo, Yay or Nay?

[Chimmike]

An oil restrictor, improperly sized, is more likely to fry your turbo that not. ATP's saying was "you can't have too much oil, and when you do, use a big restrictor, not a small one, to minimize flow just a little bit"

ATP did not discourage the in line oil filter.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by chimmike Well, donation threads aren't allowed but I don't see why that isn't. This is the filter I'm going to use. Earl's Performance 230304ERL - Earl's Performance Screen-Type Inline Oil Filters - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Don't use that filter it a waste of money the screen are too big ...

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by helmetface So when smart people disagree I get confused: @SPEED6 KILLAH @Tomas What is the consensus with these ball-bearing bitches? Oil restrictor, Yay or Nay? Oil Filter in-line to turbo, Yay or Nay?

I will go with a oil restrictor. What I like about my turbo it came with one already on it. Also go with inline filter to be on the safe side

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Don't use that filter it a waste of money the screen are too big ...

140 microns is pretty small. It's not the best, but it's definitely better than nothing.

you can bet your ass I'll be checking it frequently too. There's really no explanation for what happened to me other than I got fucked. hard. I do regular oil changes and use good filters, not those shit fram filters. Did the spin on conversion.......shit I should almost get a sandwich adapter and set up a SECOND filter.

[crazyp]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @RayRay had a similar issue. @cld12pk2go, @NJSPEED3, @atvfreek, @ everyone interested.... The more I read about the gtx ball bearing turbos, the more I think we need to be running an oil restrictor. Garrett recommends it. @chimmike, we can get enough people together in this thread to show ATP how much business they do through this forum. TBH, we don't need them considering their "drop in" oil and water feed kits are not correctly sized anyway.

I don't understand? I've been running a restrictor since I installed my GTX? The same restricor I use to run on my GT3071, was I not supposed to? I figured since they made the claim that its was drop in interchangeable that meant it needed it?

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Look at the differences from earl and FP
That small shit will catch anything. Have your ever seen the oil feed whole for the ball bearing?
Also Im running a FP filter had no problem running it..

[aviator79]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf All ATP does it put a hotside on the turbo, the failures have nothing to do with ATP unless it is there return or feed kits fucking up.

I understand, that is why I do not think I can go with a GTX anymore. Just stating that me not getting one isnt like "Ha! see ATP, your lossing my bussiness cause I dont want to buy you POS nig rig turbo kit".

But now what can I get that will compare to a TS T3 GTX3076?. Have to start from scratch on that I guess...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @chimmike, I'm down to throw down some cash towards the $250 in small claims. Where did you read that? (I know there is definitely conflict)... This is from Garrett's site.. We really need to know the oil feed line pressure. Q. Does my turbo require an oil restrictor? A. Oil requirements depend on the turbo's bearing system type. Garrett has two types of bearing systems; traditional journal bearing; and ball bearing. The journal bearing system in a turbo functions very similarly to the rod or crank bearings in an engine. These bearings require enough oil pressure to keep the components separated by a hydrodynamic film. If the oil pressure is too low, the metal components will come in contact causing premature wear and ultimately failure. If the oil pressure is too high, leakage may occur from the turbocharger seals. With that as background, an oil restrictor is generally not needed for a journal-bearing turbocharger except for those applications with oil-pressure-induced seal leakage. Remember to address all other potential causes of leakage first (e.g., inadequate/improper oil drain out of the turbocharger, excessive crankcase pressure, turbocharger past its useful service life, etc.) and use a restrictor as a last resort. Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines. Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo. The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.

The ATP/GT kits have been out for 5+ years and only maybe a handfull of failures that I know of and very few guys use a restrictor. That is all I was going by. nothing scientific..lol

I do however know of a guy running Precision turbos on a TT setup that toasted his turbos in a month due to using their recommended sized restrictor. It does require some measurements of oil pressure and then choose a size...not using a chart or someones recommendations...even if they are from the vendor.

So I am in ATPs camp with no restrictor unless you begin to have smoking issues. If you want to put a gauge on the feed line and measure that would be the only way to tell for sure.

FWIW I have 20K on my GT28, no pill and no shaft play. *knocks on wood*

oh and this does suck for Chimmike, bluestreak and the others that have had issues. Fucking Garrett could hand them a free turbo or hell even a CHRA and never feel the loss.

[cld12pk2go]

I have no restriction other than the ~0.090'' orifice in my banjo...

So far so good...

[crazyp]

-4 size Oil inlet fitting for GT28/30/35R with built-in restrictor : atpturbo.com

Thats the restrictor I'm using, is that right or not?

I bought it last november an havent had any issues

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by crazyp -4 size Oil inlet fitting for GT28/30/35R with built-in restrictor : atpturbo.com Thats the restrictor I'm using, is that right or not? I bought it last november an havent had any issues

Running the same one on my 35r and havent had any issues. I beat the fuck out of my car also. lol

[RayRay]

I have definitely had similar issues with my gtx. First time I had a metal burr left on the inside of my housing. This supposedly caused excessive heat. This caused the seals to go bad. From there I sent the turbo in and they rebuilt it.sent it back and I am having the same issues. My oil return line from them had a mountain range inside of it. They sent me a new one, 1 in shorter. (I let them know the one in their kit was too long). I am still having issues. Everything is pointing to the seals again. I am actually pulling the gtx this weekend and putting the stock k04 in. ATP had told me I will have first priority when I.. send it back to get looked at. We will see what they say but I have very little faith right now. I am hoping they will take care of it!

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by RayRay I have definitely had similar issues with my gtx. First time I had a metal burr left on the inside of my housing. This supposedly caused excessive heat. This caused the seals to go bad. From there I sent the turbo in and they rebuilt it.sent it back and I am having the same issues. My oil return line from them had a mountain range inside of it. They sent me a new one, 1 in shorter. (I let them know the one in their kit was too long). I am still having issues. Everything is pointing to the seals again. I am actually pulling the gtx this weekend and putting the stock k04 in. ATP had told me I will have first priority when I.. send it back to get looked at. We will see what they say but I have very little faith right now. I am hoping they will take care of it!

yeah. I'm interested to hear what they say.

[themytb]

I'm just a journal bearing bnr having little turbo guy lol, but don't the gt30's have some sort of restriction built into the oil inlet port of the chra? or is it really a gaping 1/4 inch or so hole for the oil to flow through?

If there is a built in restriction- would you not want to just go with something .005 to .01 smaller just to cut the flow a tiny bit?

Also a kinked drain line is on the installer, no extra parts will help that. And IF there was a blockage in the feed line thats some bad fucking luck man-shitty. do you still have the feed line or did you send it to them?

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by Dano I do however know of a guy running Precision turbos on a TT setup that toasted his turbos in a month due to using their recommended sized restrictor. It does require some measurements of oil pressure and then choose a size...not using a chart or someones recommendations...even if they are from the vendor.

Not to threadjack, but how old was the turbo? My CEA 5858 has a restrictor built in. Was he using an additional one that was smaller or did his not have a restrictor built in?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Ezekiel81923 Not to threadjack, but how old was the turbo? My CEA 5858 has a restrictor built in. Was he using an additional one that was smaller or did his not have a restrictor built in?

new turbos as of 6 months ago.

[Mizzle]

...

I realize this wasn't my turbo, but seriously what the fuck caused the problem? Magic oil globs that only exist inside this line?

If ATP provided the lines and the lining came loose and clogged or pinched, then they're liable...

Again, this isn't my money, but I wouldn't pay for shit until someone showed me what the fuck happened and we'd be in small claims if not.

[forcedinduktion]

We need more options!

[Dano]

we need a failed GT turbo thread...here lemee get one started.

Failed ATP/Garrett Turbo Thread

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion We need more options!

There are options. Not a lot of options, but enough that you can run almost any turbo you want if you're willing to put a little extra work into it

[Dano]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion We need more options!

if you are just getting started, ie. no DP, no EM, no turbo...make the move and go T3 and get away from the mazda flange and your options are almost limitless.

but alas a DP is an an early mod and one that is hard to eat.

[Ziggo]

How would the filter have fixed this issue? I am thinking an inline filter would be more likely to starve the turbo than anything else. If whatever was stopping it up was bad enough to block the line it would have clogged the filter for sure.

Its bullshit that this is not covered.

[802MS3]

first, bullshit that its not covered.

what banjo bolt were you running and what oil. no problems yet, with me.

I'm using their "low profile" banjo for GT BB turbos. figures their site is not working right now. Rotella T6. I'll post of a pic of my drain when I get a sec, photobucket isn't loading either.

[aviator79]

Are there any failed non atp turbos, garretts that is

[Dano]

Yes.

I think one of crazyps was a T3 flanged but had ATP oil feed

Info in db thread.


Tappin

[SFWD 1934]

I can forward a couple guys I race with that work there to this thread. I obviously cannot promise or guarantee any change in the outcome, but maybe it will be of help with this situation and any future ones that may arise.

Jason

[forcedinduktion]

Originally Posted by Ezekiel81923 There are options. Not a lot of options, but enough that you can run almost any turbo you want if you're willing to put a little extra work into it

Well duh..anything can be done if you really want it. I am aware you can get a different flange. I was stating we need more option on Mazda flange. It is kind of a hassle and you will be at a loss if you already have a DP and/or ex mani to switch for a different flange.