ATP/Garrett Hate - failure GTX3076

[Lex]

The only way you can have a large piece float into the oil feed is that it either came from the line itself or was there prior to install or the motor is blown and it's a piece of motor.

Otherwise, the oil going into the turbo not only passes through the car's oil filter but it also passes through bearings. So that's a little odd to get large pieces at the feed.

On the restriction comment, I am surprised no one has mentioned pressure. Oil pressure and therefore flow at the oil feed from the motor should determine the requirements and size of the restrictor if one is needed at all. All a restrictor does is drop pressure across it and regulate flow into the turbo.

On the bottom side the turbo must freely be able to evacuate oil.

The symptoms of too much oil are usually smoke and oil consumption.
The symptoms of too little oil are fried bearings.

[Mizzle]

My vote is that the oil line degraded, fell apart, fucked the turbo and ATP is playing stupid.

[Manny]

@paulwalll

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Lex The only way you can have a large piece float into the oil feed is that it either came from the line itself or was there prior to install or the motor is blown and it's a piece of motor. Otherwise, the oil going into the turbo not only passes through the car's oil filter but it also passes through bearings. So that's a little odd to get large pieces at the feed. On the restriction comment, I am surprised no one has mentioned pressure. Oil pressure and therefore flow at the oil feed from the motor should determine the requirements and size of the restrictor if one is needed at all. All a restrictor does is drop pressure across it and regulate flow into the turbo. On the bottom side the turbo must freely be able to evacuate oil. The symptoms of too much oil are usually smoke and oil consumption. The symptoms of too little oil are fried bearings.

I agree 100%, but I don't know that anyone knows what the feed line pressure actually is on our car, although there are Garrett specific recommendations.

@chimmike, I realize this may not be part of your issue, although I do feel this is a question that needs to be addressed (restrictor, need for filter etc). Again, I would definitely help you and RayRay in any way possible. I'm down for whatever direction this thread goes. (boycott atp / small claims donation... whatever)

@Dano, understood that the history of the gt turbos is that they are reliable, but it seems that the gtx may have brought a new issue to the table based on recent events.

@Ziggo, @cld12pk2go @Lex ... does it make sense from an engineering standpoint that using the same CHRA in a GTX vs a GT may require different oil demands OR stress the bearings in a different way? I don't know enough about intertia or metalurgy to make an educated statement, but my gut makes me think that using the same chra on a compressor that spins faster / accelerates quicker would be under different demands bearing wise.

I'd let it go if it weren't for members like Bluestreak, Chimmike, RayRay etc suddenly having an issue.

^^^^****No offense to any members, but if guys with what are probably well maintained, well installed turbos are having issues, what chance do some of the other members have with either less mechanical skill or whom practice less frequent routine maintenance.

[Chimmike]

That's the thing. I totally agree that I cannot explain how the 'debris' clogged the inlet. ATP's best explanation was that it could've been there since I installed the turbo and just wedged itself in at some point or another, who knows. Using Rotella this change, used Total before, and I use good oil filters.

I don't think an oil prefilter would harm flow enough to cause a starvation issue. I had a conversation with the guy at ATP on basically how I could prevent this from happening again, and he's like "I don't want you to feel like you have to go overboard with this, this was not a common failure, more like a one in a million deal", and I reiterated, then why won't garrett choke it and cover it? And he just repeated, the best they'll do is the core exchange.

[helmetface]

Originally Posted by chimmike That's the thing. I totally agree that I cannot explain how the 'debris' clogged the inlet. ATP's best explanation was that it could've been there since I installed the turbo and just wedged itself in at some point or another, who knows. Using Rotella this change, used Total before, and I use good oil filters. I don't think an oil prefilter would harm flow enough to cause a starvation issue. I had a conversation with the guy at ATP on basically how I could prevent this from happening again, and he's like "I don't want you to feel like you have to go overboard with this, this was not a common failure, more like a one in a million deal", and I reiterated, then why won't garrett choke it and cover it? And he just repeated, the best they'll do is the core exchange.

I know this has probably been brought up..

But I'm assuming they've cut open the line to find this so-called "clog"

Can you simply call up and ask for a picture of said clog?

[kritz]

Custom bent hard line?^

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by helmetface I know this has probably been brought up.. But I'm assuming they've cut open the line to find this so-called "clog" Can you simply call up and ask for a picture of said clog?

I don't think you're understanding. The clog wasn't in the oil feed line. The oil feed line is still reliably bolted to my block. That thing has never been removed from the motor.

They're saying the clog is inside the oil feed in the turbo, that it's in some portion we can't see, and the way they know this is they plugged in an oil feed and no oil was able to pass through to the bearings.

[mituc]

I think the oil pressure and flow are high enough on that line to wash away any debris that may be in there and prevent any clog from building up. And if there was any clog/debris just after the install I think the turbo would have failed within the next few hundred miles.
Also, we're talking about oil restrictors and stuff to lower the oil flow while the blown bearings are a result of poor oiling.

Just think how damaging cooked/burnt oil can be for a turbo: guy comes home with a hot turbo, does not let the turbo cool down, oil cooks on the shaft and makes a solid film, guy starts car next cold morning and bam!, it smokes slightly already. Repeat the process a week in a row and you have a blown bearing and possibly seals on that turbo. While mike and others used these turbo's for a while before they let go.

[helmetface]

Originally Posted by chimmike I don't think you're understanding. The clog wasn't in the oil feed line. The oil feed line is still reliably bolted to my block. That thing has never been removed from the motor. They're saying the clog is inside the oil feed in the turbo, that it's in some portion we can't see, and the way they know this is they plugged in an oil feed and no oil was able to pass through to the bearings.

Thanks for clearing that up. Even more convenient for them.

I may have missed it, but did you push for proof?

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by mituc I think the oil pressure and flow are high enough on that line to wash away any debris that may be in there and prevent any clog from building up. And if there was any clog/debris just after the install I think the turbo would have failed within the next few hundred miles. Also, we're talking about oil restrictors and stuff to lower the oil flow while the blown bearings are a result of poor oiling. Just think how damaging cooked/burnt oil can be for a turbo: guy comes home with a hot turbo, does not let the turbo cool down, oil cooks on the shaft and makes a solid film, guy starts car next cold morning and bam!, it smokes slightly already. Repeat the process a week in a row and you have a blown bearing and possibly seals on that turbo. While mike and others used these turbo's for a while before they let go.

funny thing was, there was NO SMOKE. None.


Anyways. If anyone feels like shooting me some help, my paypal is chimmike at hotmail dot com.

[irishking03]

Originally Posted by chimmike funny thing was, there was NO SMOKE. None. Anyways. If anyone feels like shooting me some help, my paypal is chimmike at hotmail dot com.

I maybe able to throw a donation.

DROID RAZR tapatalking2

[atvfreek]

Such B.S. and it certainly sounds like internal failure. Have you asked to escalate and speak to a manager? I know all this is time consuming, but seeing it's still in warranty, they don't have much to stand on.

[greg08]

FUCK ATP BABY!
i like there downpipe though, just because there is no chance of them fucking me over

Originally Posted by chimmike I don't think you're understanding. The clog wasn't in the oil feed line. The oil feed line is still reliably bolted to my block. That thing has never been removed from the motor. They're saying the clog is inside the oil feed in the turbo, that it's in some portion we can't see, and the way they know this is they plugged in an oil feed and no oil was able to pass through to the bearings.

are they going to replace the turbo for you? its bs it went out on u.

[atvfreek]

I believe they were also quick to tell @RayRay that his initial smoke issue was a PCV problem, then when they did further investigating, they found the bur in the turbo.

[Chimmike]

@greg08, no they're not replacing it for me.

[Raider]

@chimmike

ATP Turbo - Hayward, CA
ATP Business Review in Hayward, CA - San Francisco, Oakland, San Mateo, and Northern Coastal California BBB

Entity Name: ADVANCED TUNING PRODUCTS, INC.
Entity Number: C2516744
Date Filed: 06/02/2003
Status: ACTIVE
Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA
Entity Address: 28988 HOPKINS ST
Entity City, State, Zip: HAYWARD CA 94545
Agent for Service of Process: QUI LE
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[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion Well duh..anything can be done if you really want it. I am aware you can get a different flange. I was stating we need more option on Mazda flange. It is kind of a hassle and you will be at a loss if you already have a DP and/or ex mani to switch for a different flange.

Well my point was just that if you're doing a BT build I think most are changing out the exhaust mani and swapping the flange gives you plenty of otions

If you're sticking with the stock flange, which is pretty restrictive but I digress, then yes you're kind of screwed. It'd be nice if someone like Precision or Turbonetics offered stock Mazda flanged hot sides so you could ditch Garrett altogether if you wanted to. Both are cheaper than Garrett turbo's and you don't give up anything from a performance standpoint.

[robry]

mike, such a shitty thing to have to go through, "warranty" lol. anyhow, I threw you a few bucks to hopefully help easy the pain of paying the 750$ for the replacement. Curious to hear if anything further happens with ATP.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 ... does it make sense from an engineering standpoint that using the same CHRA in a GTX vs a GT may require different oil demands OR stress the bearings in a different way? I don't know enough about intertia or metalurgy to make an educated statement, but my gut makes me think that using the same chra on a compressor that spins faster / accelerates quicker would be under different demands bearing wise.

My engineering SWAG is that the oil demands would be similar and the stresses in the same ballpark.

However, I certainly am not a turbo bearing guru by any stretch, and thus I could be off by a mile...

[greg08]

dude i fuckin hate when companies dont cover warranty's on their products.

[Lex]

You would need to know what the changes to the CHRA and bearings are. Oil passages on the inside of the CHRA make up the meat and potatoes of the situation and that determines what oil pressure and therefore flow you need through there. This should be covered in Garrett technical papers on the turbo and not by ATP.

So just so I'm understanding this correctly. Are all the failures from poor oiling or is there something else? Metal burrs are just assembly/manufacturing issues.

[PapaSmurf]

I'm pretty sure the CHRA is the same, it's only the blades that change. @jmhinkle should be putting his GTX3076 on soon and he will be running the same restrictor he was running on his normal GT3076 and the same one I run on my GT3582, neither of us have had problems.


Sent from my flying tapadildo

[Payne Racing 67]

Cool glad to know I have a ticking time bomb in my car @rfinkle2 since Im not having any problems YET, any suggestions? Im not running a restrictor. Simply the one line ATP provided and the other stock aluminum line. Maybe I should just abort my GTX and go with a custom set up?

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 2 failures with properly maintained cars is suspect. In any case, their kits are poop, imo.. And if poop, they should @ least stand behind them.

Technically it is not ATP's kit failing it is garrett's chra that failed, all atp does is slap their bolt on turbine housing onto it ....IDK I think it should be garret who eats the loss.

Most definitely not you.....what exactly could have caused the feed to plug?

FYI the gtx uses the same exact bearing/shaft set-up as the gt series, the billet wheel distinguishes the 2 apart, being the case every bb garret tc I have used required a restrictor, they need/use minimal oil...........but this failure doesn't sound like it has anything to do with having too much......more like not enough.

To the best of my knowledge the seals are exactly like a piston ring, they are designed to weep to relieve pressure beyond something like 40psi, but that doesn't mean they have failed, usually something like a pinched oil return line causes back pressure.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Payne Racing 67 Cool glad to know I have a ticking time bomb in my car @rfinkle2 since Im not having any problems YET, any suggestions? Im not running a restrictor. Simply the one line ATP provided and the other stock aluminum line. Maybe I should just abort my GTX and go with a custom set up?

I would stick with the set-up you have now, and just make sure that your return line has a straight shot to the block, i.e., no bends or kinks that are even the tiniest bit suspect.

Otherwise, there is no sense in worrying about it.

[Dano]

holy shitstorm of conflicting information batman!

Garratt says use a restrictor..but only if you are under 40PSI
ATP says..do not use one.
some guys use them
some guys dont

has anyone actually measured oil pressure at the feed line in the upper RPMs?

edit: I see that Garrett wants pressure at least 40-45PSI if lower then the restrictor will increase said pressure in the CHRA.

This may be the same source @rfinkle2 quoted

Ball Bearing Turbo "An oil restrictor is recommended for optimal performance with ball bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure of 40 - 45 psi at maximum engine speed is recommended to prevent damage to the turbocharger's internals. In order to achieve this pressure, a restrictor with a 0.040' orifice will normally suffice, but you should always verify the oil pressure entering the turbo after the restrictor in insure that the components are functioning properly. Recommended oil feed is -3AN or -4AN line or hose/tubing with a similar ID. As always, use an oil filter that meets or exceeds the OEM specifications. "

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...il_water_lines

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano holy shitstorm of conflicting information batman! Garratt says use a restrictor..but only if you are under 40PSI ATP says..do not use one. some guys use them some guys dont has anyone actually measured oil pressure at the feed line in the upper RPMs? edit: I see that Garrett wants pressure at least 40-45PSI if lower then the restrictor will increase said pressure in the CHRA. This may be the same source @rfinkle2 quoted Oil & Water Lines | Turbobygarrett

I think there's a misunderstanding here. The restrictor in the feed will lower the pressure at the turbo since it causes a pressure drop. What they meant is that if you have above 40-45psi oil pressure coming from the block, use a restrictor. Not below.

Another note in here - if the oil feed is so large that pressure drops way low and the CHRA is not enough of a restriction, a restrictor may be needed since too much oil volume will pass through the turbo.

Oil pressure at the relief valve is probably around 70-80psi on our cars and its riding the relief at 3500 RPM and above. Someone check this in the manual. When oil passes through any passage some of that pressure drops, eventually dropping to zero as it return to the oil pan. The main bearings are fed first, then oil works its way up the block and into the head. I suspect the turbo feed to be between the main bearings and head.

I should add, more viscous oil increases pressure, and as the engine wears and bearings wear down/passages open up, pressure drops.

[Dano]

O I C,

I guess I was thinking a restrictor would INCREASE pressure/lower volume...place finger over garden hose pressure goes up.

my head hurts....

[Tabasco69]

WOT I had oil pressure in excess of 120psi, this is from a aem oil pressure gauge/sender, my tc oil feed is plumbed directly to the oil filter plate (non disi mzr), I absolutley have to run a restrictor.

you got to remember the whole premises behind oil pressure/volume has to do with hydro suspension of the older journal bearing which ride in a suspension of oil film, ball bearing only require a small amount of oil in comparison for general lubrication.


yeah restrictor decreases pressure, the hole is close to the diameter of a pencil lead

[865ms3]

@chimmike
this may be totally off topic and irrelevant but here goes.

ill start off by saying i think atp/garrett should be helping you out in this situation.
i work in the construction equipment industry. recently we had a machine that had a turbo go down. installed a new turbo and boom...turbo down again with an hour. we removed all the oil feed/drain lines and cleaned them. once again boom another turbo down. after days of scratching our heads we decided to investigate more. did a compression test. on this 3 cylinder engine cylinder #2 was WAYYYY down on compression. turns out blow by was causing the oil to get nasty and sludge up the feed line causing the turbo to fail.

not saying you have this problem, but if it was my money....id make 100% damn sure the turbo is getting sufficient oil.

do any of the gurus know if it is possible to get a reading on what pressure the oil pump is putting out? i know on our particular engine we where able to hook a gauge to the oil sending unit and see the oil pressure. but even in doing this....we did not realize the problem until it was too late. maybe there is a way to throw a pressure gauge on the feed line and check it. i didnt read ALL of the post, but did you pull the feed line and inspect it?

once again this may be un related....but figured i would throw this out to try to help. good luck with whatever you do.

[greg08]

yeas

u have so many JBR parts on ur gen pu 865 :p

[Chimmike]

Oh, the motor is/was fine, as was the oil pump. If anything was wrong with the motor/oil supply, other shit would've failed too, or i'd have spun a bearing or something.

[Lex]

I should add to my comment regarding the oil pressure discussion. The oil pressure in the motor is regulated by the oil pressure relief valve at the pump.

The pump spins up and and starts flowing. At low engine speeds it can't flow enough volume to really increase pressure in the engine but at around 3000 RPM it should get to the maximum pressure allowed in the engine. At this point the relief valve is open and pressure is maintained in the system.

Everywhere the oil flows, it will drop pressure from what the pressure is held at by the oil pump relief valve. The head thus has less oil pressure than the bottom end.

The CHRA is a restriction to the flow of oil, so it will see X pressure at the top and basically zero pressure at the bottom. That X pressure at the top is maintained by the oil pressure relief valve at the oil pump and the many passages before the CHRA.

If the oil feed is very large and the oiling system is not designed for a turbo, the oil pump may not be able to flow enough to hit the oil pump PRV. This will starve the motor of oil and it's very bad news. So this is when a restrictor is needed and it's usually in cars where you T off another oil passage such as from the head.

If the oil pump can maintain X pressure at the CHRA, say 40psi and you add a flow restriction, then the oil pump relief valve will potentially bleed more oil since it now sees extra pressure in the system overall. So now the restrictor will see 40psi but the CHRA will see less.

Dano, you're right that putting your finger over a hose will create a higher pressure coming out, but it also increases the pressure upstream. If that upstream pressure is regulated, it will drop, and you will see less flow from the nozzle. The key here is that the overall system pressure is regulated.

[Haltech]

You guys should all collaborate on a detailed paper, with pictures and everything else. I will publish it for you.

True, Garrett is the resp party of the CHRA.. However, you have an ATP modified turbo.. Therefore, they are ultimately responsible for the turbo as the reseller. ATP should be accepting these turbos back under warranty provisions and providing you a replacement. Its ATP's responsibility an an OEM distributor to deal with garrett on getting the warranty done.

None of this should be blown off. No one should be required to shell out another $750.. Its someones responsibility and thats ultimately Garrett.. I bet, if you collaborated with enough forums on the subject, you could easily get a class action lawsuit filed on Garrett.

[rfinkle2]

Has anyone tried contacting Garrett directly?

If someone does get a hold of them, tell them one of their distributors (ATP) is jerking around a forum with members nearing 30,000 which has in the 100's of members with Garrett turbos.

(drop in the bucket for Garrett, yeah, but worth a try)

[Lex]

I would think a little more investigation is needed regarding the failure mode and what actually failed as well as the numbers of failures. Danos resource thread is a good start.

Then contact them and explain the situation and get some technical answers regarding the failure. Ie, are we doing something wrong or are the turbos bad?

[SFWD 1934]

I forwarded the thread to one of my racing buddies that works for ATP. Hopefully it will help.

Jason

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by SFWD 1934 I forwarded the thread to one of my racing buddies that works for ATP. Hopefully it will help. Jason

Let me know what happens!

[Caligula]

In for win. Lets hope this gets sorted.