BT installed - setup questions

[laxplayermjd]

cant you get a new boost solenoid and run interrupt mode? i believe its more responsive and with a retune and run much lower wgdc %

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by laxplayermjd cant you get a new boost solenoid and run interrupt mode? i believe its more responsive and with a retune and run much lower wgdc %

Interrupt works great with a 3 port solenoid, and a 3 port WG actuator, where you can actually apply boost to the top of the diaphragm until you want to open it. This helps spool etc etc etc.

But Dano has a stock IWG actuator and stock 2 port solenoid, so there's no way to run interrupt really.


Plus, it seems he either has a very bad boost leak, or alternatively his exhaust mani pressure is so high that it's physically opening the IWG flapper on it's own.


With an ewg, yeah 3 port is a great way to go (though akuma says they suck, i've never tried).

[laxplayermjd]

Perrin Performance - EBCS Pro Boost Control Solenoid

thiers says you can run interupt with stock wg actuator and run about 50% of the wgdc

but yea it seems there may still be issues with wga spring pressure

[Dano]

Well I don't have any boost leaks so that leaves me with the spring. I pressurized my system to 20PSI and no leak down.

I am going to disconnect the BC and see what spring pressure is now that I have adjusted the preload. If its 14 then IDK.

My stock K04 WGA spring was 12 and I had no problem hitting 17 PSI until this summer when WGDC hit 99. hell that is the whole reason I went BT to get away from raping my WG sol to get 18PSI.

lax,

I will check out that link and give them a call to see if that BC will resolve my issue. I doubt another/larger WGA will fit.

[Dano]

ya think in their zeal to overcome creep ATP over ported the WG?

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 ya think in their zeal to overcome creep ATP over ported the WG?

Keep me posted on this. My new IWG should be here Friday, but I may do some more tinkering with preload until it gets here. You know ATP, everything is delivered exactly when they say it will be

[Dano]

capped a few pulls today with my BC disconnected and got right at 14PSI so I def have the 12-14PSI WGA.

With that sad, it looks like the published specs on the ATP WGAs is at the high end with full preload enabled. So, I think I will try and get the 18PSI WGA and adjust the preload on it and hopefully get around 16PSI which would be ideal.

Just need to get the dimensions from ATP to see if it will even fit between the turbo and firewall. Maybe I need a big hammer to gain some room on the FW LOL

My other option is some flavor of EBCS, BUT , to run them in Interrupt mode, which is really the only way to run one effectively, may require ALOT of tuning in ATR. Every boost related table, including Boost Dynamics may need to be adjusted to keep the ECU from overcompensating for the faster response of the EBCS. That doesn't sound like too much fun but you do start out by reducing the WGDC tables by 50% so that would give me plenty of room to tune boost. I know Fobio runs the Grimspeed and Douge has a Perrin so I am going to hit them up for advice.

That’s all I have for now.

Oh I re-enabled WMI today and holymutherfuckingsonofabitch! The meth somehow makes the snail spool way faster or at least creates its own punch which fills in the spool gap. Still haven’t touched TRLs yet so I can make it spool faster yet.

I can’t wait to get the tune completed and see what it can really do. It seems the “completed tune” is always j-u-s-t out of reach

[Lex]

Glad to hear things are coming along Dano. Are you going to bring this to a dyno or track?

[Dano]

ya know I should have been dynoing all along to guage my progress but just didn't want to take the time. Lazy I suppose but I think I owe it to at least myself to hit the dyno when I have the 28 completely dialed in to see what is up.

I know it's not going to be a big HP car and I wasn't going for that so not sure what the sheet would really prove.

[Lex]

I'm curious to see what it looks like compared to a K04 ... although you can see that from load and g/s curves

[Dano]

yeah I thought I could dyno on the final tune then back track with all my logs to see where I was before. I always log load and g/s so it would be fairly easy.

[djuosnteisn]

Dano, do you have logs pre-maf scaling for the load? Looking at g/s only holds true if you use the same maf curve pre / post hardware mods.

[Dano]

yep yep


I have recent logs created while testing ATR with the MAF scaling removed but still the same MAF scale that matches my intake as before. So I should be able to track a good tune with the K04, Load cap removed, and a good tune with the 28 when its completed.

[Dano]

DJ and Lex,

What do you think of this possibility since I appear to breaking new ground on being unable to obtain boost and everything else appears to be in line.

Lets say that the majority of guys that install an ATP BT also install a new higher flowing exmani.
ATP gets numerous calls about boost creep.
ATP ports the WG to compensate for said creep

Along comes Dan and he is running a stock mani with less flow and his thinking was “ with less exhaust flow I will not creep”. [this is certainly the case BTW hahahah] So now the ATP ported WG opens and lets all the gas out and doesn’t spin up the snail. BC works its ass off to try and bleed boost away from WG and close it.

Does that sound plausible?

I know it doesn’t help me in the long run but I am just trying to figure out why I am having this much trouble with a 14PSI spring. Stock spring was 12 and I could get to 17 and only hit 99 WGDC above 5K. Now with the ATP 28 I peg 99 to get to 18-19 PSI at 4K IIRC. The math is about the same I guess but I am going to reduce TRL and see if I can get 17PSI now without overdriving my BC until I find a real solution i.e. EBCS or 18PSI WGA.

[Lex]

IF the WG flapper is being forced open by the exhaust it is because the pressure differential across the turbo is very large. In other words if you have very high pressure at the manifold and very low pressure past the turbine and you are flowing more gas than can be pushed through the turbine then the door will be forced open.

The WG spring simply places a force on the flapper door. If that force is less than what the exhaust pressure can apply along with the boost source, you have the door open. It's as simple as that. A stronger WG has a stiffer spring that requires more force to open.

The boost source and pre/post flapper exhaust pressure differential force act in the same direction. The WG spring acts in the opposite direction. There is also the length of the flapper arm, surface area of the flapper door and so forth but let's assume those stay constant.

Your WG solenoid bleeds off boost from the boost source so that it reduces that one force and that's all that you can control.

So I see 3 possible issues:

1. The mechanics of the WG itself are not allowing this. The spring is too soft, the flapper door is oversized, the lever arm is the wrong length, the turbine is too small

2. Your solenoid is not able to reduce/bleed the boost source enough

3. The pre/post WG flapper door exhaust pressure differential is too great.

Now, you know that you can hold 14psi to redline with the boost control simply relying on mechanics.

So that means the boost control solenoid is only able to divert ~5-6psi of "boost force" from the source line at 99% duty cycle. I would look into why that is first. Did you try completely removing the hose from the WG and slowly rolling into it? You can also place a small bleed hole between the WG and solenoid (essentially a manual boost controller).

As boost goes up, pre/post exhaust pressure differential also increases so keep that in mind because points 1 and 3 then come more into play.

[Dano]

great, thanks

I guess what I was trying to say is assuming the boost control system is working as designed, WG, WGA and BC, perhaps once the WG opens it is flowing more air, bypassing the turbine, and preventing sufficient flow thru the turbine. IDK

I believe in some of the early Cobb documentation regarding our boost control system they talked about porting the WG and if you did so achieving desired boost may become impossible do to the higher flow thru the WG. At that point a stronger spring would be required to keep the WG closed longer to build boost but still boost control would be a problem once the gate opened

I just wonder if this may be the case with the newer ported WG from ATP and not running a higher flowing exhaust mani nets me with less exhaust gas flow and thus slower turbine speeds.

I do still need to run without a boost source to the WGA and see what happens, carefully of course. If at that point I still can't get higher boost numbers we have our answer and I will def need to somehow fit a new WGA on with a stronger spring. Even an EBCS in inturrupt mode can't keep the pressure diff from forcing the WG open...damn.

At THAT point i need a 2 port WGA and 3 port sol. I love complicating my life. Maybe the K04 wasn't that bad after all LOL

[Jchouin1]

Here is a quick datalog of a 3rd gear pull, with a load request of 2.15, and .030 pill. You can see that boost bleeds off crazy fast, with an exmani. I have an email out to ATP about all of this, so hopefully I'll hear back soon.

[Dano]

dude you're in the exact situtation as I am and you have exmain so that blows my theory. Maybe ATP went too far with their porting.

Are you running a 14PSI spring?
Factory BC Sol?

[djuosnteisn]

I'd still like to see you try running the car with nothing hooked to the wg actuator, so you can damn well confirm that it is indeed exhaust pressure that's opening the flapper.

And then i'd like to see an MBC tried, to eliminate any possibility of your solenoid just being clogged, or slightly broken.

*edit* just got back from lunch and forgot to click "post reply" lol. All good info above

[Dano]

will run sans boost source later today or tonight. Don't have access to MBC. guess I could make one with a paint spray gun regulator and some fittings... hahahah

[Jchouin1]

i ordered a 14psi actuator when they stated that I shouldn't have one. I remember seeing 9psi with no boost control. I'll run out right now, pull the boost control and log it. back in a bit.

[djuosnteisn]

I think just a vta actuator will tell you enough on what to look for.

[Dano]

you will have to have full preload to get 14PSI. Shorten the rod as short as it will go... you wil then need to apply pressure to the can to get it to open enough to get back onto the WG ear.

[Jchouin1]

as it is currently set up, this is what I ended up with, 2nd gear.

[djuosnteisn]

Wait, jchouin, did you pull the line off the actuator? Cause it doesn't look like it. You need to completely remove all boost sources from the actuator and then do a cautious wot pull to see if the exhaust is opening the flapper.

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Wait, jchouin, did you pull the line off the actuator? Cause it doesn't look like it. You need to completely remove all boost sources from the actuator and then do a cautious wot pull to see if the exhaust is opening the flapper.

I didn't un plug the harness. I just ran a straight boost source to wg. the solenoid is plugged in with no lines going to it.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Wait, jchouin, did you pull the line off the actuator? Cause it doesn't look like it. You need to completely remove all boost sources from the actuator and then do a cautious wot pull to see if the exhaust is opening the flapper.

suggestions on how to "safely" do that? it boosts like a raped ape with no boost source, and a potential 30psi scares me. Roll on boost at 5500rpms? what's the best way to try this?

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Jchouin1 I didn't un plug the harness. I just ran a straight boost source to wg. the solenoid is plugged in with no lines going to it. suggestions on how to "safely" do that? it boosts like a raped ape with no boost source, and a potential 30psi scares me. Roll on boost at 5500rpms? what's the best way to try this?

Well if it boost great with no boos source then that means you simply have solenoid issues.

Basically i'd just roll into it at a fairly low rpm so boost build slow, like 2500rpms, and just keep an eye on boost gauge. The second you see 20psi or more just let off.


But this would eliminate the idea that exhaust pressure is whats opening up the WG flapper, and it points to either flawed plumbing with solenoid, faulty solenoid, or something else.

Plus i don't think your 2871 would ever make 30psi lol. It's still a fairly small turbo, but it would definitely make a lot of hot air lol.

Just be quick and watch the boost gauge. You can do it no problem

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Well if it boost great with no boos source then that means you simply have solenoid issues. Basically i'd just roll into it at a fairly low rpm so boost build slow, like 2500rpms, and just keep an eye on boost gauge. The second you see 20psi or more just let off. But this would eliminate the idea that exhaust pressure is whats opening up the WG flapper, and it points to either flawed plumbing with solenoid, faulty solenoid, or something else. Plus i don't think your 2871 would ever make 30psi lol. It's still a fairly small turbo, but it would definitely make a lot of hot air lol. Just be quick and watch the boost gauge. You can do it no problem

ok, so just run straight from the solenoid to the iwg, capping off the boost source?

[djuosnteisn]

If your running bleed mode like stock, the boos source goes directly to the actuator with a T to the solenoid. I say pull the boost source off entirely. Preferably, have no tube going to the nipple on your actuator, just let it vent to atmosphere.


And be super cautious, and do like 3rd gear from 2500 rpm, and just watch for like 20 psi or so and let off.

Probably don't even have to floor it.

[Jchouin1]

ok, i'll head out and see what happens! lol

[djuosnteisn]

GL hahaha, your built... be brave

[djuosnteisn]

*suspense*

[Dano]

Tick tick tick tick

[JumpingJackson]

BTW christian had no problem tuning my car with the grimmspeed EBCS in interrupt mode.. about 30% WGDC to hit 18 psi on my S256

[djuosnteisn]

Agreed, i know john at akuma hates the 3 port solenoids, but i honestly don't understand why. They are what they are.

But 3 ports only work on an ewg, which doesn't help these guys, unless they upgrade the hardware.

[Dano]

Well apparently jch didn't have trouble w the WG opening w no boost source so my only trouble is my factory BC or I can get a larger WGA.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn But 3 ports only work on an ewg, which doesn't help these guys, unless they upgrade the hardware.

3 port in interrupt mode works fine with IWG, atleast it will for a IWG actuator with a single nipple like the ATP does for the grimmspeed 3port EBCS do this:

port 3: boost pressure signal
port 2: IWG actuator
port 1: intake

not sure how you would hook it up to a stock turbo in interrupt mode since it has 2 nipples on the actuator

[Jchouin1]

done. easily jumped over 20psi at light throttle.

[Dano]

That is actually good news. We just need either an EBCS. Int mode or larger 18PSI wga

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson 3 port in interrupt mode works fine with IWG, atleast it will for a IWG actuator with a single nipple like the ATP does for the grimmspeed 3port EBCS do this: port 3: boost pressure signal port 2: IWG actuator port 1: intake not sure how you would hook it up to a stock turbo in interrupt mode since it has 2 nipples on the actuator

right, what you mention here is bleed mode. no way to run interrupt mode.