Failed ATP/Garrett Turbo Thread

[Dano]

So there seems to be a recent rash of failed GT and or ATP/GT BB turbos, so I thought it might be a good idea to have a database of which turbos failed, failure mode, and outcome.

I think the following criteria should be included;

Turbo type: [GT30xx or ATP GT30xx, GTX30xx, etc]
Restrictor used: [no restrictor, .035, .040 etc]
Failure Mode: [CHRA bearing falure, hotside cracking, etc.]
Oil feed line used: [OE, ATP, other]
Oil return line used and if modified for length.
Vendor Purchased from:
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer:
Symptoms: [cloud of smoke out of the back + no boost, etc.]
Turbo mileage:
Turbo failure after blown motor: [yes/no]

I think that's about it unless anyone has other ideas of what would be useful.


@chimmike
@BlueStreak
@crazyp

and any others

[RayRay]

Here is my wall of frustration...

Turbo type: GTX3076
Restrictor used: Told by ATP that no restrictor was needed on new GTX series.
Failure Mode: Two time Seal failure. First time had metal bur left inside CHRA housing that caused rubbing and excessive heat. Defective Oil Return line sent from ATP.
Oil feed line used: OE Feed line.
Oil return line used and if modified for length. Original install had Oil Feed line used supplied by ATP. Now running custom line supplied by ATP that is 1in shorter in length.
Vendor Purchased from: Edge AutoSports
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer: First time ATP rebuilt entire CHRA housing. Still waiting on resolution for second issue.
Symptoms: Oil blow back through Compressor housing. Oil in Intercooler, Intake and Throttle Body. Massive "Spy Hunter" smokescreen from tail pipe.
Turbo mileage: About 5k on original install, 1.5k on second failure.
Turbo failure after blown motor: No Blown Motor


Here are some pics of the bur in the CHRA housing and of the defective Oil Return line sent to me by ATP.

[crazyp]

Turbo type: T3 GT3071
Restrictor used: .035
Failure Mode: CHRA bearing failure
Oil feed line used: custom ATP steel braided line
Oil return line used : Custom ATP steel Braided line
Vendor Purchased from: bought used forum user
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer:
Symptoms: no boost , mileage unknown and boosted up to 24 psi

Turbo type: T3 GTX3076
Restrictor used: .035,
Failure Mode: no failure as of yet
Oil feed line used: custom ATP steel braided line
Oil return line used : Custom ATP steel Braided line.
Vendor Purchased from: Edgeautosport
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer:
Symptoms:working fine so far, bought november 2011 boosted up to 27 psi

[BlueStreak]

Turbo type: GT3071R /w ATP IWG
Mileage: 30K KMs
Restrictor used: None
Failure Mode: Bearing failure. Shaft play in all directions. Damaged compressor wheel.
Oil feed line used: OEM
Oil return line used and if modified for length: ATP oil return line. Not modified.
Vendor Purchased from: StreetUnit
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer: Haven't sent it out yet.
Symptoms: Zero positive manifold pressure. Smokescreen out the exhaust.

I added mileage in there. Figured it would be a good parameter to list.

[TWOptSL0W]

did your turbos blow after a blown motor, or just all by themselves?

[Dano]

From rayray pending more details

Originally Posted by RayRay I have definitely had similar issues with my gtx. First time I had a metal burr left on the inside of my housing. This supposedly caused excessive heat. This caused the seals to go bad. From there I sent the turbo in and they rebuilt it.sent it back and I am having the same issues. My oil return line from them had a mountain range inside of it. They sent me a new one, 1 in shorter. (I let them know the one in their kit was too long). I am still having issues. Everything is pointing to the seals again. I am actually pulling the gtx this weekend and putting the stock k04 in. ATP had told me I will have first priority when I.. send it back to get looked at. We will see what they say but I have very little faith right now. I am hoping they will take care of it!

Tappin

[RayRay]

Originally Posted by Dano From rayray pending more details Tappin

Updated my post with all important details!!

[Chimmike]

Turbo type: GTX3076R
Restrictor used: No, stock oil line via ATP fittings
Failure Mode: 'clog' in oil feed inside turbo, bearings failed.
Oil feed line used: OE via ATP fittings
Oil return line used and if modified for length: ATP, not modified
Vendor Purchased from: StreetUnit
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer: "user-induced error"
Symptoms: No boost, metallic whirring
Turbo mileage: 15k
Turbo failure after blown motor: NO

[rfinkle2]

@SPEED6 KILLAH.. You made mention of seeing this more than once. Could you tag the owners of the turbos in this thread when you have a chance?

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @SPEED6 KILLAH.. You made mention of seeing this more than once. Could you tag the owners of the turbos in this thread when you have a chance?

Pablo's precision turbo blew due to a bottom end assembly failure.

Ms3ko he owned an t3 gt3071 turbo blew post zzb

Twoptslow atp gt 3076 turbo blew post zzb

If you blow you're motor there is a big change for the contaminated oil to take out your turbo, this is why he recommended the oil feed filter.

[Dano]

now we're startin to get somewhere.

Ziggo made an interesting observation in chimmike's thread about the in-line filter, in that it can be a blessing or a curse. if you don't monitor it and keep it clean of debris it will be the cause of your failure. It will likely never get anything in there unless you do lose a motor but as Pablo said you have to check it religiously.

From your data it would seem that if you do blow the motor you WILL blow the turbo as well..

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Dano now we're startin to get somewhere. Ziggo made an interesting observation in chimmike's thread about the in-line filter, in that it can be a blessing or a curse. if you don't monitor it and keep it clean of debris it will be the cause of your failure. It will likely never get anything in there unless you do lose a motor but as Pablo said you have to check it religiously. From your data it would seem that if you do blow the motor you WILL blow the turbo as well..

That's exactly what we are seeing, we can't stress enough how important it is to continuously check your filter. I would run a oil feed filter only if I was breaking in a new motor, but not after that.

[Chimmike]

Yeah, definitely did NOT pop the motor on this end, lol. OEM pistons/rods completely intact, hg intact, etc.

[Dano]

My immediate plan is to not change my setup. Namely no restrictor or filter until some data can be gathered.

IMO a guy should install a pressure gauge in the feed line and measure actual pressure at higher RPMs then compare to Garrett's recommended pressure and install the correct size restrictor if needed.

It could very well be that we are over oiling the GTs but really have no idea by how much. So ATP is erring on the side of caution and so will I.

Maybe when I install my GTX I'll throw a gauge on there and see what's what.


Tappin

[Dano]

pertinent info from the other thread

Originally Posted by Dano holy shitstorm of conflicting information batman! Garratt says use a restrictor..but only if you are under 40PSI ATP says..do not use one. some guys use them some guys dont has anyone actually measured oil pressure at the feed line in the upper RPMs? edit: I see that Garrett wants pressure at least 40-45PSI if lower then the restrictor will increase said pressure in the CHRA. This may be the same source @rfinkle2 quoted Ball Bearing Turbo "An oil restrictor is recommended for optimal performance with ball bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure of 40 - 45 psi at maximum engine speed is recommended to prevent damage to the turbocharger's internals. In order to achieve this pressure, a restrictor with a 0.040' orifice will normally suffice, but you should always verify the oil pressure entering the turbo after the restrictor in insure that the components are functioning properly. Recommended oil feed is -3AN or -4AN line or hose/tubing with a similar ID. As always, use an oil filter that meets or exceeds the OEM specifications. " Oil & Water Lines | Turbobygarrett

[Chimmike]

ATP told me specific to the MZR disi a restrictor is not needed. This is why they use the OEM feed without a restrictor. ATP also tells me you cannot "over oil" a turbo, but oil can leak by the seals, at which point a properly sized restrictor will stop the leaking. They say the seals are not rubber and do not "go out", that it's usually another problem.

Just repeating what I'm told, that's all.
I would be willing to believe we're not over-oiling them if we're not getting smoke/oil leak past the seals, though.

[Dano]

I understand completely and am in the "no restrictor" camp. I was putting that information up for the restrictor guys.

a blanket statement like "all BB turbos on all platforms need a restrictor" is BS until proven otherwise IMO. not hating on the guys that are running them but perhaps ATP knows something we don't in that our motor runs 45PSI in the feed line..enough to feed the bearings.

it sounds like Garrett only wants a restrictor to get you to the 40-45PSI oil pressure in the CHRA...but I can't say that for sure...just going off the statement on their site.

so if pressure is higher a smaller orifice will only make it more right?

so perhaps they are indicating they want a restrictor in there to INCREASE pressure if you don't have enough.

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by Dano I understand completely and am in the "no restrictor" camp. I was putting that information up for the restrictor guys. a blanket statement like "all BB turbos on all platforms need a restrictor" is BS until proven otherwise IMO. not hating on the guys that are running them but perhaps ATP knows something we don't in that our motor runs high pressure in the OE feed line..enough to feed the bearings. it sounds like Garrett only wants a restrictor to get you to the 40-45PSI oil pressure in the CHRA...but I can't say that for sure...just going off the statement on their site.

from what ATP told me, the only reason for a restrictor would be if you're getting leaking past the seals.

They apparently tested the oil pressure in the feed line to determine this data.

Doesn't change the fact that these failures are "mysterious" at best, and I'm not sure exactly who is at fault the most; ATP or Garrett or both

[Dano]

right.

we are covering two different topics here...lol

I don't think your failure mode has anything to do with running or not running a restrictor.

the other thing I am trying to put to rest is do we need one or not? lol it may always be a matter of opinion.

If I put a gauge on mine and wide open it reads 40-45PSE I will feel confident no restrictor is needed.

but if you are flowing too much oil IDK how to solve that...if you put in a restrictor you up the pressure correct? Then you are beyond spec for pressure but running correct volume.

catch 22 and prob why ATP says leave it alone unless you blow out smoke/seals.

edit: I am wrong according to @Lex so there you have it.

restrictor apparently does not increase pressure...I was thinking of the gargen hose analogy...put finger over part of it and the pressrue goes up and volume decreases...still don't understand why that is not the case but it doesn't matter...lol

[Chimmike]

Your question was answered in my other thread as you know.

restrictor reduces pressure/flow.

[Dano]

haha

I love being wrong...I am getting dizzy and must take a break from MSF for awhile....

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Dano haha I love being wrong...I am getting dizzy and must take a break from MSF for awhile....

Ahhh. It was a good theory, and useful for the topic.

[Rokusek]

sub'd for future reference

[ganque]

Subbed, I'll probably join the list eventually

[Raider]

@bwallace04

[Spectrix]

Originally Posted by Dano restrictor apparently does not increase pressure...I was thinking of the gargen hose analogy...put finger over part of it and the pressrue goes up and volume decreases...still don't understand why that is not the case but it doesn't matter...lol

With the garden hose, it's that the pressure increases around your finger - and the fluid momentarily speeds up to get through the smaller gap.
Same deal with the oil restrictor, so once the oil gets *past* the restriction, the pressure is reduced to less than it was in the first place.

Last time I contacted Garrett about the correct size restrictor they told me that the GT series had the 'correct' restrictor is already built into the top of the CHRA.

This still doesn't quite make sense to me because I would have thought that the 'one size fits all' restrictor is really only suited to a certain range of feed pressures. And every car is different in that regard. So it would be good to know what pressures we're actually working with on this platform.

Sorry for going off topic, the pressure/restrictor size issue may well need its own thread.

[mituc]

In 7 days from now my GTX3071 will be one year old. I already pud 20k km/12k miles on it including a track session which left me with no brakes.
Knock on wood but no problems so far. The only problem that I have is overheating the engine coolant and the only thing that was changed was the turbo, TIH, and the engine coolant (FL22 50/50 mix, probably I should have to dilute it a bit). today at 0C/32F ambient the ECT after 2 hours of relatively calm city traffic (stop lights, moving speeds of 30-70Kmph/20-45mph) and 5 minutes of idling in the parking lot the ECT's were at 108C/225F).

[mituc]

Originally Posted by mituc The only problem that I have is overheating the engine coolant and the only thing that was changed was the turbo, TIH, and the engine coolant (FL22 50/50 mix, probably I should have to dilute it a bit). today at 0C/32F ambient the ECT after 2 hours of relatively calm city traffic (stop lights, moving speeds of 30-70Kmph/20-45mph) and 5 minutes of idling in the parking lot the ECT's were at 108C/225F).

My FAIL, I just figured I have a bad thermostat. The ECS's were 108-114C (226-237F), the radiator is cool as ice but the fan is like blowing the air from the whole planet through.

This is a total non-sense. When a thermostat fails it should remain open FFS! I don't give a .uck by the quick engine heat-up after startup during cold mornings if I'm going to cook the valve seals 30 miles later!

[Dano]

Apparently failed tstats are common

Mine runs hot all the time as well

You might want to check out the "mzr disi heat management" thread.


Tappin

[burn813]

I think I may be part of this group now, there was a kink in the return line because it is too long and now I am burning oil at a pretty constant rate. There is no oil pre-turbo(in the exhaust mani) intake and intercooler piping seem to be dry as well. The car is doing similar to what ray ray stated, at this point not much but there is some smoke. Has anyone priced what the cost it to have them fixe the issue?
Turbo type: gtx3071r
Restrictor type: none
Failure type: smoking under load
Oil return line: ATP, recently replaced by @HTP; with correct size
Turbo mileage: 20k
Symptoms: smoking like a k04 in boost

[rfinkle2]

Not being read @ the turbo feed line, but maybe a decent link for general oil pressure readings and as a guideline for deciding if you choose to install a restrictor:



purple drank oil pressure woes

[jreams]

interesting read,

so restrictor DOES lower pressure...

was it decided if our engine should or should not use a restrictor?

[redboat]

Originally Posted by jreams interesting read, so restrictor DOES lower pressure... was it decided if our engine should or should not use a restrictor?

I second this question, or is it case by case recommendation?

[jdmage_mx5]

I think this is a good thread idea to cover GT and GTX failures. So bump bump. @Dano; I know you have a recent failure also.

Turbo type:GTX3071r
Restrictor used: no restrictor using Garrett Turbo BB low profile banjo bolt
Failure Mode: CHRA bearing failure
Oil feed line used: OEM
Oil return line used and if modified for length: OEM modified (cut accordion section out and installed 5/8" steel braided hose to allow better flex.
Vendor Purchased from: original owner purchased from ATP
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer: CHRA exchange with ATP for $742.49
Symptoms: nails on chalkboard sound when turbo experienced any load.
Turbo mileage: 20,000-30,000 miles between two owners
Turbo failure after blown motor: no

I did have some compressor wheel to housing contact. There were some brazing marks on the housing but I was able to smooth it out with some 2000 grit wet sand paper.

[Dano]

So my GTX3071 failed a few weeks ago.

Turbo type:GTX3071r
Restrictor used: "Garrett BB turbo restrictor bolt" off e-bay. Full description below.
Failure Mode: CHRA bearing failure
Oil feed line used: -4AN PTFE SS
Oil return line used and if modified for length: ATP -10AN 1.5 " removed to make it fit.
Vendor Purchased from: forum member in FS section
Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer: FU cuz used - bought entire new kit
Symptoms: no boost with rough bearing sound upon shutdown - very slight contact with comp housing
Turbo mileage: 15-20K miles between two owners
Turbo failure after blown motor: no

So here are some details on my setup cross posted from ATP/Garrett Hate - failure GTX3076

So while swapping out turbos to get the GTX back in I thought I'd take a closer look at the restrictor's I have on hand.

In the below pic, from left to right you have:

the bolt that comes with a brand new ATP GTX kit, the Garrett BB bolt on e-bay and the Garrett "restrictor" bolt on e-bay.






Its hard to tell but the middle bolt is just slightly larger than the one on the far right. The one on the far right is what I was running on the failed GTX. So I have to wonder, if a "restrictor" bolt is needed, and we see that in Garrett's documentation, why does ATP ship out a new kit with the bolt shown on the far left hand side?

Not sure which bolt I'll use, out of the two on the left, the most restrictive bolt is out for sure. The far left bolt is what I ran my GT28 with for almost its entire life, 20-25K miles and I just ran it for 2 weeks as a temp with zero trouble - it runs like new. The middle bolt was run on the GTX for a while then I ran the most restrictive version for just a few K miles.

anyway I thought it would be good to have more data on this subject.

edit:

Here is a pic of a restrictor my buddy is running on his GTX3582r in his bugeye.

comparo to my smallest restrictor.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Dano So my GTX3071 failed a few weeks ago. Turbo type:GTX3071r Restrictor used: "Garrett BB turbo restrictor bolt" off e-bay. Full description below. Failure Mode: CHRA bearing failure Oil feed line used: -4AN PTFE SS Oil return line used and if modified for length: ATP -10AN 1.5 " removed to make it fit. Vendor Purchased from: forum member in FS section Answer/resolution from vendor or manufacturer: FU cuz used - bought entire new kit Symptoms: no boost with rough bearing sound upon shutdown - very slight contact with comp housing Turbo mileage: 15-20K miles between two owners Turbo failure after blown motor: no So here are some details on my setup cross posted from ATP/Garrett Hate - failure GTX3076 So while swapping out turbos to get the GTX back in I thought I'd take a closer look at the restrictor's I have on hand. In the below pic, from left to right you have: the bolt that comes with a brand new ATP GTX kit, the Garrett BB bolt on e-bay and the Garrett "restrictor" bolt on e-bay. Its hard to tell but the middle bolt is just slightly larger than the one on the far right. The one on the far right is what I was running on the failed GTX. So I have to wonder, if a "restrictor" bolt is needed, and we see that in Garrett's documentation, why does ATP ship out a new kit with the bolt shown on the far left hand side? Not sure which bolt I'll use, out of the two on the left, the most restrictive bolt is out for sure. The far left bolt is what I ran my GT28 with for almost its entire life, 20-25K miles. The middle bolt was run on the GTX for a while then I ran the most restrictive version for just a few K miles. anyway I thought it would be good to have more data on this subject.

When you shut your car down, did you continue to hear the compressor spinning all the way up until death?

I think we should all start using a filter inline with the feed.

When I took my 3071 off, I had a very small black piece of hardened something that I'm lucky didn't cover the feed hole.

[Dano]

1) why no avatar.

2) I did 1 last pull on my load tune and just drove the car home without looking at the log...just planned to look when I got home. it was a 10 minute drive and when I got off the freeway and pulled into my hood I noticed the car had no power...but no screeching noise either. I pull up into the garage shut the car off and then I hear the bearings as it spun down. no screeching but a horrible dry/toasted bearing sound..lol it was gone.

changed my oil 2x and did get metal shavings off my mag pan bolt which totally sucks but so far no oil pressure drop in the new motor.

I am fairly sure my restrictor bolt was the cause of my failure.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Dano 1) why no avatar. 2) I did 1 last pull on my load tune and just drove the car home without looking at the log...just planned to look when I got home. it was a 10 minute drive and when I got off the freeway and pulled into my hood I noticed the car had no power...but no screeching noise either. I pull up into the garage shut the car off and then I hear the bearings as it spun down. no screeching but a horrible dry/toasted bearing sound..lol it was gone. changed my oil 2x and did get metal shavings off my mag pan bolt which totally sucks but so far no oil pressure drop in the new motor. I am fairly sure my restrictor bolt was the cause of my failure.

Disaster avoided hopefully.

What do we need to do to actually measure this feed pressure so we can figure this out? Just a standard oil pressure gauge @ the turbo?

Fuck, I'll do that this week.

[Dano]

I'd have to go back and look at my build v1 thread but I measured the pressure unrestricted out of the block (my original oil sender location) and it was the same as at the sammach plate IIRC.

[Dano]

updated post 35 with a pic of an inline restrictor the subbie guys use on their Garrett/FP BB turbos.