Fuck EBC

[ChaunceyM]

Fuck EBC right in their english cunts.

edit: as I'm typing this I have no idea why I would have trusted their pads in the first place, but still fuck them.

I just had a set of Bluestuff pads completely wear out after 2 25 minute track sessions. Not full days; 2 SESSIONS! Attached pictures of what's left; these were a 0.490" thickness this morning. I'll be bringing my calipers home from work tomorrow (where I shouldn't be since I should be f'n racing!) to measure exactly what's left on them.

The pads never had bite, had fade issues even in session 1, and damn near wrecked me if I hadn't looked at them prior to session 3.
In their defense, EBC failed me once before, but because I'm an idiot I trusted them. I had a set of yellowstuffs on the stock calipers that I used for 1 track day and let sit in the driveway buried in snow for 3 weeks. Move the car, pad material rips off of the backer. Complain, they offer me new pads, I say "great, send me bluestuffs for my new Wilwood calipers!".
So much for a 1.5 day event for me; 2 f'n sessions!!


I'm immediately buying a set of DTC-60s, which I had before and really liked. But what is everyone else using? @Tomas; and @Code Monkey; you've been polite for my previous stupid questions and I know you both track a shit-ton more than me. I hear good feedback on Carbotech and Performance Friction.
These would be on my Wilwood 4-pistons (pad shape 7812 if anyone cares).

[Cheapspeed]

I like my hawk plus pads.FWIW.

[MS3Shadow]

have you tried Carbotech brake pads? they're pretty awesome, i'm running the AX6 version.

[ChaunceyM]

Not sure the AX6 compound would work, but I tempted to try their XP10. Read good things on this forum regarding carbotechs. My peak rotors temps are high enough that I not only exceeded, but completely burned off DBA's 1166F paint stripe. So the AX6 temp rating of 1000F is not going to be enough.

[MS3Shadow]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM Not sure the AX6 compound would work, but I tempted to try their XP10. Read good things on this forum regarding carbotechs. My peak rotors temps are high enough that I not only exceeded, but completely burned off DBA's 1166F paint stripe. So the AX6 temp rating of 1000F is not going to be enough.

i meant the brand mostly. i use the AX6 for Daily Driving. you should be much better luck with their XP10.

[Reedy]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM Not sure the AX6 compound would work, but I tempted to try their XP10. Read good things on this forum regarding carbotechs. My peak rotors temps are high enough that I not only exceeded, but completely burned off DBA's 1166F paint stripe. So the AX6 temp rating of 1000F is not going to be enough.

XP10 all day my friend. AX6 maybe for AutoX but I have found the XP10 to be a real sweet spot for my Speed3.

I tried XP8 on the front after installing my Alcon Brake kit as I figured I could afford to back it off a little with the bigger calipers, but I didn't like them at all. XP10 are way better.

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM DTC-60s .... Carbotech and Performance Friction.

^ All are good choices, with Carbotech edging out the Hawk a little bit on my setup. I really liked XP20's in front and XP8's in rear. Also liked Cobalt Friction XR1's in front. On my BBK, I run either Ferodo DSUNO or Endless N05U pads. Make sure you bed in Carbotechs properly, otherwise they will feel like shit.

[ChaunceyM]

Thanks for all the quick info. And I think it was one of your threads where I read about the carbotechs initially.

Okay, wasn't sure if you were autocrossing those or something else. Right I'm still filled with a bit of rage, and too much coffee, so my comprehension is low.

I need to have pads ready for the next event 10/29-30, so I think I'll be getting a set of the XP12 and a set of DTC-60s. I'd go DTC-70, but they don't make the right thickness for me. (I need .490; they only do .600).
I might also get Carbos for the rear. It hurts my core to know I've got yellowstuffs back there.

Where do you order your carbotechs from? Having trouble finding a vendor.

Anyone use Wilwood brand pads? From their charts, Compound A looks perfect for my current setup. But I'm not in the mood for more failures in 2 weeks. Or to buy 3 sets of pads (DTC-60/70 and XP10s are all but purchased at this point).

[MS3Shadow]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM Thanks for all the quick info. And I think it was one of your threads where I read about the carbotechs initially. Okay, wasn't sure if you were autocrossing those or something else. Right I'm still filled with a bit of rage, and too much coffee, so my comprehension is low. I need to have pads ready for the next event 10/29-30, so I think I'll be getting a set of the XP12 and a set of DTC-60s. I'd go DTC-70, but they don't make the right thickness for me. (I need .490; they only do .600). I might also get Carbos for the rear. It hurts my core to know I've got yellowstuffs back there. Where do you order your carbotechs from? Having trouble finding a vendor. Anyone use Wilwood brand pads? From their charts, Compound A looks perfect for my current setup. But I'm not in the mood for more failures in 2 weeks. Or to buy 3 sets of pads (DTC-60/70 and XP10s are all but purchased at this point).

KNS brakes are where i got mine. they pretty much got everything.

[ChaunceyM]

Right after I posted that I clicked on their link, and yeah they have everything.
Queued up XP12 and DTC60 for front, and XP8 for rear. My wife is going to love seeing that charge pop up tonight...

The big silver lining from today was my still-in-progress e85 tune from Justin was excellent. In session 2, even on pads that I didn't trust and tires not at optimal temps, I beat my previous best time by 6 seconds (1:49 --> 1:43) I could tell I was running faster when I had to up-shift in places I never needed to shift before. And I never got a perfectly clean lap because I had an ass in a 911 Targa that wouldn't give me a point-by. If I wasn't slowed by giving my own point-bys, I was right on his ass the entire time. Probably drove him nuts seeing that stupid smiling grill in his rear-view.
And FFS is pretty sweet once you get used to it.

[Voltwings]

So i just want to play Devil's advocate here. Even with traction control off on my car, i could feel the TC and SWAS being invasive in certain corners, and i am wondering if you were encountering similar scenarios? I was on stock brakes, stock tires, stock suspension... i may not have been able to push hard enough to really tax the TC (and therefore the brakes) but maybe you were?

I dont doubt the pad compound failed, but blue stuffs are closer to a street car pad than they are a track car pad. I am wondering if you just taxed them.

[ChaunceyM]

Originally Posted by Voltwings So i just want to play Devil's advocate here. Even with traction control off on my car, i could feel the TC and SWAS being invasive in certain corners, and i am wondering if you were encountering similar scenarios? I was on stock brakes, stock tires, stock suspension... i may not have been able to push hard enough to really tax the TC (and therefore the brakes) but maybe you were?

The only time I've had those issues was this summer when a previous tuner left SWAS enabled. Then the car was really lurching mid-turn when I tried to start applying throttle. Not cool in a FWD torque-steery car. Today it was just ABS kicking in if I'd trail brake into a very tight right hander. The rears would start locking due to all the weight being forward and then some cornering load.

Originally Posted by Voltwings I dont doubt the pad compound failed, but blue stuffs are closer to a street car pad than they are a track car pad. I am wondering if you just taxed them.

Oh yeah, I pushed them WAY beyond what they can do. This wasn't a material failure more than a marketing failure. I trusted EBC when they called them an "intermediate grade trackday pad". The fact they don't list any temperature ranges for their pads should have been a red flag...

[snailD]

Originally Posted by Voltwings So i just want to play Devil's advocate here. Even with traction control off on my car, i could feel the TC and SWAS being invasive in certain corners, and i am wondering if you were encountering similar scenarios? I was on stock brakes, stock tires, stock suspension... i may not have been able to push hard enough to really tax the TC (and therefore the brakes) but maybe you were? I dont doubt the pad compound failed, but blue stuffs are closer to a street car pad than they are a track car pad. I am wondering if you just taxed them.

not to derail the thread, but i noticed that too.... at least up until i pulled the ABS fuse. all better =)

[svd]

I've got ebc yellow ended in 7 10-minute sessions. I've talked about this with ebc - they say they usually have them lasting for about 3 hours at track.
This year I used ebc yellow at miata - it took about 3+ hours at track to wear them.

EBC seems too soft and MS6 too heavy for ebc

Now I use g-loc (carbotech) R10/R8 at miata and I happy with them.

I've also very impressed with cobalt xr1 - that is the most hard pads I ever used (got them from Code Monkey with calipers)

[svd]

Oh yeah, I pushed them WAY beyond what they can do. This wasn't a material failure more than a marketing failure. I trusted EBC when they called them an "intermediate grade trackday pad". The fact they don't list any temperature ranges for their pads should have been a red flag...

I think ebc lists temp ranges, at least yellows have ranges listed, and those are good enough - worked for me food until weared completely (about 1mm was remaining)

I used once hawk hp+ at ms6 - that was my fail. Pads overheated and I lost brakes at the end of 10 minute session

[ChaunceyM]

Originally Posted by svd I used once hawk hp+ at ms6 - that was my fail. Pads overheated and I lost brakes at the end of 10 minute session

That's what scares me the most in all of this. If I'd run that 3rd session I would have been down to the metal at some point. If that happened on the main straight when I was doing 120mph...

I'll never fire up for a session without looking over the pads again, that's for damn sure. And I'll always have a spare set ready to go if I need them.

[dagrimey1]

G-LOC Brakes -

Just putting this out there as I just stumbled across them recently. Former Carbontech employees started their own company and make pads for our cars. Haven't gotten a chance to try them, but I will. Home in NC where all the good race car stuff is.

[MS3Shadow]

Originally Posted by dagrimey1 G-LOC Brakes - Just putting this out there as I just stumbled across them recently. Former Carbontech employees started their own company and make pads for our cars. Haven't gotten a chance to try them, but I will. Home in NC where all the good race car stuff is.

i'm using G-Loc brakes right now. they're pretty awesome. most people don't know about them so i usually said the direct copy which are the Carbotechs.

and KNS brakes also carries them.

[ChaunceyM]

I thought about them for this time, but just couldn't pull the trigger over carbo. I'll definitely keep them in mind for next year. And really what I should be doing is using a consistent pad so I can work on my technique.

[xfeejayx]

Blues area step the wrong direction from yellows. What made you try them?

Had the yellows on track. The yellows still had stopping power, but lost feel on the front after a few sessions.

Just tried out dtc 60s this past weekend, and holy shit do those things stop. However, I think I melted those, also. 30 minute sessions seem to be VERY hard on the brakes.

[ChaunceyM]

I tried them because I'm stupid and like playing with new things. Instead of just using a consistent setup and working on my own driving consistency, I continually try to tinker and test different things.
Now it's time to just leave everything alone until I'm repeatable for that aspect. Then I can start tweaking things and know the real impact on lap times.

[xfeejayx]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM I tried them because I'm stupid and like playing with new things. Instead of just using a consistent setup and working on my own driving consistency, I continually try to tinker and test different things. Now it's time to just leave everything alone until I'm repeatable for that aspect. Then I can start tweaking things and know the real impact on lap times.

I just meant why did you go the other way? Blue are advertised as less of a track pad than the yellows. I guess that was the only other option to try from EBC.

The yellows were pretty good for AX, but road course/track just ruins them. I didn't even like driving home on them after.

Would be nice if we could get the orange.

[ChaunceyM]

EBC advertises the blues as a step up from yellow. On the page for yellows they recommend going blue for intermediate track usage and orange for longer races. And instead of digging far into it before trusting them I just went in blind.
Again, valuable lesson here. Unlike street usage, I need to be much more thorough before I put something on my car for the track.

[shamie]

I use Stoptech Street Performance pads and slotted rotors. They're at least half the cost of Carbotechs (or G-Locs). I get about 8 days out of the fronts and twice that for the rears. I'll turn the rotors once then toss, so twice the days for the rotors. As long as I do a proper brake cool down they remain very livable (quiet) as my dailys.

I'm not sure what they have that fit your calipers but I'm sure they've got something.

As for most Porsche owners they hate to be passed by a Mazda. It took 3 PCA events before I got any respect and even then they were constantly showing me the faster car approaching flag for the cars I'd just passed.

[ChaunceyM]

This was the first guy I've had an issue with at a PCA event. This group is actually really great. People are friendly and helpful in the paddock and have always been good about giving point-bys to whomever is behind them regardless of make. Probably 25% of the cars, maybe a bit more, were non-Porsches.
Hey, maybe this guy was just mis-judging the situation or just wasn't experienced enough to know when it's time to be passed. I didn't interact with him off-track, so I can't really judge him on his attitude.

[ChaunceyM]

I went XP12 for front and XP8 for rear.
And KNS brakes has been awesome. When I called yesterday to see if they could rush ship the pads so I could hit a track day on Monday they made sure they left their facility as soon as they showed up from Carbotech. En route now and should be at my house tomorrow.
Definitely going to use them for all my brake needs going forward.

[MS3Shadow]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM I went XP12 for front and XP8 for rear. And KNS brakes has been awesome. When I called yesterday to see if they could rush ship the pads so I could hit a track day on Monday they made sure they left their facility as soon as they showed up from Carbotech. En route now and should be at my house tomorrow. Definitely going to use them for all my brake needs going forward.

awesome. They are really helpful.

[Nliiitend1]

I have had good results with XP12s all around.

I switched to Carbotech because I got tired of switching rotors with my DTC-60s (I'm running Carbotech 1521s on the street)...

[ChaunceyM]

I like the ABS on. If I'm running correctly it doesn't matter either way, but if I go into a corner too hot it let's me know if it was the tires or brakes that were exceeded. That pulsing of the pedal is my cue that the tires lost grip as opposed to brakes not having enough bite.
Until I get enough seat time to just intuitively know that I need a helper.

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 I have had good results with XP12s all around. I switched to Carbotech because I got tired of switching rotors with my DTC-60s (I'm running Carbotech 1521s on the street)...

So instead of re-bedding at the track after switching pads you were just changing pads and rotors?

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM So instead of re-bedding at the track after switching pads you were just changing pads and rotors?

Pretty much. I'd still try to give them a good work-over on a backroad or even at the track when it was possible, but I never had any issues with mixing the XP12s and 1521s on the same rotors...

[Reedy]

Carbotech pads are all designed to have cross compatible with transfer layers. I do the same thing. XP10 for the track, 1521 on the street, don't need to change rotors.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Reedy Carbotech pads are all designed to have cross compatible with transfer layers. I do the same thing. XP10 for the track, 1521 on the street, don't need to change rotors.

Yup.

[ReverendDexter]

Back when I used to do more AX and track days, I had good luck with Porterfield pads. I was using their R4-S compound on stock brakes on my '98 Mustang Cobra. I did a full day at Thunderhill (4 or 5 20 minute sessions) and had plenty of life in those pads for a season of AX.

My only complaint is that those pads are super dusty.

[hartlch]

I've had good luck with the Porterfield pads also. They have lasted through multiple track weekends with no problem and they are also drivable on the street. They are dusty, but not as bad as a lot of track pads. A drawback might be that there aren't multiple compounds to play with. That being said, it's hard to go wrong with the Carbotechs. Lots of compounds and the compatibility between them is a definite plus.

[ChaunceyM]

Ran with the XP12 pads on Monday and like them. Not sure if I like them more htan DTC60, but they felt really good and I felt I could modulate well. However, my braking technique needs alot of work. I was able to boil my freshly flushed rbf600 fluid on lap 6 of session 4. Seeing rotor temps of 600F in the pits post-sessions.

Talking to a buddy that's also working his way up the intermediate ladder I need to get on the brakes much harder right away. I'm easing on too slowly out of fear of unsettling the car at 120mph instead of confidently getting right on it and up to threashold quickly. As he explained it (as was explained to him by a RTR instructor when he was boiling fluid in his Focus ST) my doing that is generating lots of heat early without peak braking. Then as I work up to threashold the heat spikes way too far. Apparently it's a really common issue that intermediate guys have.
So I've got something to work on for my final session of the year this Saturday. It sounds like they've added a 2nd car group, so hopefully I can get my buddy that's a Porsche club racer to ride along 1-2 sessions as an instructor. Worst case I can talk technique with him between runs.

I'll figure out some Nator brake ducting this winter to help the situation. And really, If I'm being honest I should not spend ~$1800 on going BT this winter until I fix my braking. More power = more speed = REALLY bad day if I don't upgrade my braking skills first. Clearly I've got plenty of work to do on braking and handling before I ramp up speed. Aka, what everyone said 8 months ago when I was acting way too big for my britches.

[Nliiitend1]

What tires are you using?

[ChaunceyM]

Nitto NT-01 in stock size (225 40/18). The tires have great grip and aren't loosing traction during braking. I don't think I'm getting close to their limit at all.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by ChaunceyM Nitto NT-01 in stock size (225 40/18). The tires have great grip and aren't loosing traction during braking. I don't think I'm getting close to their limit at all.

Reason for asking is because with that kind of rubber, you can probably more or less stand on the brakes and still not overdo it (just keeping a feel for lockup with a slow release as weight shifts back to the rear). Not sure how much your aftermarket brakes are affecting balance and the system's EBD calibration, but with my OEM brakes I stab the fuck out of the pedal initially and the car stays pretty well on course (alignment settings of course will affect this too of course). Hell, leave the DSC on for a few laps next time if that'll make you feel better until you get the feel for how violent you can be.

Your "threshold" is probably much deeper than you think.

[Reedy]

I met another Speed3 owner who has the 4 Piston Willwood kit on the weekend and I was shocked at how much of the brake rotor goes completely unused. I know that's not necessarily an indicator of relative braking performance but if you're boiling RBF600 brake fluid then something is not right. I guess a 6 lap session could do it if you were on it the entire time, with those tyres in particular.

I never do more than 3 hot laps back to back without doing a cooldown lap in between for this kind of reason.

[ChaunceyM]

It definitely is far from where I'm currently braking. Occasionally I'll really get on it off of some of the shorter straights, but never correctly. It just hasn't been an issue that worked it's way up my priority list...until now. I never appreciated how my shitty technique was actually making temps worse instead of better.
Tomorrow I'm going to work on really hitting it hard immediately. Especially on shorter stretches. Even with DSC off the ABS is still on, which is plenty to keep me from completely losing control. And with zero weight in the rear it'll be awfully hard for the tail to come around on me in a straight line. Just keep jamming it harder and harder until I get a hint of ABS under initial braking. Or until my neck is sore from being snapped forward.