HPRV gone bad?

[C-love]

Hey Everyone,

First post here, I'm glad to have this forum as it's already proven to be a very useful resource for me.

I bought my '08 speed3 somewhat hastily and naively in Phoenix a couple weeks ago (i live in Tucson). It only has 40k mi. I've had a few surprises since getting home, but currently I am dealing with what I suspect to be a bad HPRV.

I really wish I knew everything that was done to this car, but this is a list of mods I'm aware of:
-Mazdaspeed 3 CAI (I shortened it to an SRI and added the air straightener which helped get my LTFT's in check)
-Cobb TIP
-Downpipe (not sure what brand, still need to inspect this closer)
-Turbosmart dual port BPV
-Cobb lowering springs

I am unsure if this car is currently tuned, I've been reluctant to commit to an AP just yet, not sure how aggressively I want to tune this car.

Since acquiring it I have done the following:
-New NGK 6509 plugs gapped to .27 (NGK's in there were factory gapped? to .42~ish!)
-Replaced front strut hats/bearings/bumpstops
-Comp test (done cold) showed 160 - 160 - 169 - 159
-Chased down a coolant leak to my EGR housing, discovered there was no gasket in there....

Last week I noticed a massive power cut around 4500-5000 rpms under WOT. I have an OBD2 BT adapter and snagged torque which showed me that fuel pressure was dropping dramatically during these events, sometimes diving from 1650-1800psi down to 90/100 in extreme cases. I had lean at idle codes when it was running rich before I got the AS installed. I've also had a few p0300 and 304/301's.

First I suspected I probably need HPFP internals, but since then poked around a little more and did the prescribed KOEO HPRV test a few times. The first time I hadn't driven the car but let it idle until reaching operating temp. The log showed it reaching 1615psi over the course of about 9 minutes.
1615psi.png

I tested it again after driving it, unfortunately torque didn't save my log file this time but I still noticed it peaked at 1100 psi before turning around per the realtime info gauge markings. Unsatisfied with my missing log file I did the test one more time (let it idle for 5 min or so to get back to temp) and it peaked at 746psi after about 6 minutes.
746psi.png

Please let me know if there is any possibility my HPRV is not the culprit here, and/or if there are any other test you think I should perform (Inspect/clean spill valve?) before ordering an OEM HPRV. I realize I may have issues beyond this but thought it smart to get this repaired if it is definitively bad and then reevaluate.

[Vansquish]

The "massive power cut around 4500-5000 rpms under WOT" that you've described sounds like your car is experiencing boost cut and/or load cut. If you're on the OEM tune with an aftermarket intake and downpipe, then you are definitely going to be overboosting and hitting load values that exceed the OEM tune's limits.

You cannot run the car with an aftermarket downpipe on the OEM tune safely. The OEM tune cannot account for or adjust for the increased air and exhaust flow modifications on your motor. This is very unsafe for the engine.

Additionally, you absolutely *must* have aftermarket HPFP internals installed to run an aftermarket downpipe on the MS3. You are risking your engine without them. This really is one of those non-negotiable things.

I would start with an Accessport and a proper tune before doing anything else. The HPRV might be going bad, but I'd also expect to see idle fuel pressure values that are too low if that was the case.

[MSMS3]

Do not run stock tune with that downpipe! You are likely spiking well over the 22.5 psi that your maf sensor can read, inducing dangerous lean out, inability of the fuel pump to meet commanded AFR, and getting cut to save your engine.

You must run an aftermarket tune compatable with that downpipe and must have upgraded (larger) hpfp internals. This is not optional. It is mandatory.

[C-love]

I am unsure if the car is currently tuned, as I am unsure of what my HPFP internals are currently. Hopefully the previous owner upgraded them as well. I'll probably pull them sooner than later to inspect/identify the components. I really wish I had more info from previous owner(s) regarding what was actually done to this vehicle. @Btstarcher , I noticed you're in AR and this vehicle was there previously. Does my mod list (in the OP) ring a bell for you in regards to a Jet mica black 08 speed3?

I am fairly certain that I am not overboosting. Prior to this issue I seemed to be limited to spring pressure as I couldn't exceed 10-12 psi. The car drove great before the current problem. Maybe some ECBS issue, or possibly the HPFP internals although I didn't observe and FP dips at the time. I don't think I even hit 10psi of boost doing these latest diagnostic runs to gather more data.

I haven't bought an AP yet as I am unsure of how involved I want to get in the tuning, I may prefer to have someone else tune it for me once. Hopefully I have some resources available to me out here in the Tucson/Phoenix area.

Rest assured the symptoms are very predictable and similarly easily avoidable. I'm staying out of boost altogether until this is sorted, and only driving it when absolutely necessary. I've spent a lot of time reading all through this forum over the last couple weeks, I certainly don't want to "ZZB" and am trying to take all reasonable precautions.

I really just wanted to get confirmation on the HPRV at this point, and then planned on reevaluating. Do you think it is prudent to pull/clean the spill valve and then do the KOEO test again before ordering my HPRV? Thank you for your time, I hope I don't sound dismissive to your very sound advice.

[btstarcher]

Originally Posted by C-love I am unsure if the car is currently tuned, as I am unsure of what my HPFP internals are currently. Hopefully the previous owner upgraded them as well. I'll probably pull them sooner than later to inspect/identify the components. I really wish I had more info from previous owner(s) regarding what was actually done to this vehicle. @Btstarcher , I noticed you're in AR and this vehicle was there previously. Does my mod list (in the OP) ring a bell for you in regards to a Jet mica black 08 speed3? I am fairly certain that I am not overboosting. Prior to this issue I seemed to be limited to spring pressure as I couldn't exceed 10-12 psi. The car drove great before the current problem. Maybe some ECBS issue, or possibly the HPFP internals although I didn't observe and FP dips at the time. I don't think I even hit 10psi of boost doing these latest diagnostic runs to gather more data. I haven't bought an AP yet as I am unsure of how involved I want to get in the tuning, I may prefer to have someone else tune it for me once. Hopefully I have some resources available to me out here in the Tucson/Phoenix area. Rest assured the symptoms are very predictable and similarly easily avoidable. I'm staying out of boost altogether until this is sorted, and only driving it when absolutely necessary. I've spent a lot of time reading all through this forum over the last couple weeks, I certainly don't want to "ZZB" and am trying to take all reasonable precautions. I really just wanted to get confirmation on the HPRV at this point, and then planned on reevaluating. Do you think it is prudent to pull/clean the spill valve and then do the KOEO test again before ordering my HPRV? Thank you for your time, I hope I don't sound dismissive to your very sound advice.

You will probably get a better response on Facebook these days. Search for Nator Arkansas and request membership.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[C-love]

So perhaps I can word my inquiry more succinctly:

Does the spill valve or any other component play a role in the pressure building with the HPRV key on engine off test?

[MSMS3]

I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you are running that intake and a 3” downpipe in stock tune, you ARE overboosting. Look at my mod list. We are not speculating on this.

And you must (not optional) have upgraded hpfp internals with that intake and downpipe or you will also run lean. The injectors will increase bandwidth (longer spray) to try to maintain safe AFR until they can’t keep up. Then you blow the engine. Only takes a deep drop in pressure for a fraction of a second to do you in.

[C-love]

Once I became more familiar with the car I started watching boost levels closely, I have yet to see over 12psi on the mechanical gauge or the OBD data in torque. TBH I'm still not even sure about the DP, I'll take a pic tmo.

I was just reviewing my last WOT logs (from Sat. after I last worked on it) to verify my AFR was rich enough when WOT. Looks good to me, getting 10.x-11 pretty close to what the ecu is commanding. Only saw anything lean when I let off the throttle entirely engine braking with neg boost pressures. Honestly I was expecting to see some lean condition from the HPFP dip, but perhaps my logging is just too slow to catch it.

Once I confirm what has been done to the exhaust and verify my HPFP was not already upgraded I'll order the FP internals if they're not already in there. I've been researching tuning options too.

On the weekend I also noticed that I seem to have a rev limiter/Launch control set to 3k rpm when the vehicle is not moving. Is this a stock function? Or does that suggest it has some tune currently installed for LC?

[Jeff23spl]

low rev limit isn't part of oem tune if i'm right but i never ran those car for long enough without a tune to be sure...
If you log with a wireless device, scan rate are too slow to really diagnose it. looking at afr alone isn't going to let you know for sure if hpfp is keeping up or not as the ecm will always try to keep it safe....
If pressure drop too much, it tend to flood with low afr to drop power. once it isn't that bad but over time, bad atomisation works against clean explosion creating all sort of problems from misfire to washing the cylinder lub and oil dilution to wear out your engine faster.

[C-love]

So I picked up some CS internals and an AP. I guess I'll get that all installed and then reevaluate and post an update as I have had some doubts about my initial HPRV suspicions since starting this thread. Thanks for the sound advice everyone.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by C-love So I picked up some CS internals and an AP. I guess I'll get that all installed and then reevaluate and post an update as I have had some doubts about my initial HPRV suspicions since starting this thread. Thanks for the sound advice everyone.

You will need to remove the pump and clamp it in a vise to get it apart. That big nut is torqued on very tight. The hard fuel line nut needs to be secured with a zip tie to keep it from sliding all the way down. You’ll have a difficult time retrieving it otherwise.

When you get it disassembled look carefully at the piston. If it’s the same diameter all the way it is stock. If it has a bulb on the end, larger than the shaft, it’s already been upgraded. If you haven’t opened the CS box, maybe you can return it.

There are several good how-to instructions on all of this. You need to do this in a very clean area as any dirt or contamination will undo your efforts. Use clean gasoline for flush. Clean engine oil for required lube.

Corksport’s video is pretty good.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cPCttIQC4eE

[Jeff23spl]

when installing the hpfp, instead of just removing the head, take all the pump out and clean it inside if you want peace of mind. (look for complete instruction, not sure if it was from cobb or maybe for the vw using the same internals but it shown how to open it in details...

[C-love]

Hey Guys, thanks. I already pulled the pump and cleaned it all up Weds night. Unfortunately it didn't come out to gracefully as I busted the spring retainer nut on the way out. Also took me a while to figure out how those little pieces on the spill valve side go back in. All cleaned up now, inside and out. Gonna drop the CS internals in later tonight.

On a side note, my blue fuel line was missing the clip and had a zip tie in place. How safe do you think that is? I Imagine it's a PITA to find that clip.

[C-love]

Hey Guys, I might need some help. This car is making me crazy!
I went and scooped up a new set of CS HPFP internals Thursday night, as well as an AP from. I installed the HPFP internals last night.
When I first fired it up I had torque running (still haven't installed the AP) and my idle FP was 1500-1700 so I quickly killed it after 2-3 seconds. I had cleaned the spill valve when I had it apart, so I pulled that and inspected everything, researched online to be sure I did it right. This time I didn't push the valve pieces into the top of the SV as hard, reinstalled, and fired it up. it still had High idle FP for maybe 1 second then settled down to a nice 450psi.
I let it Idle for roughly 10 min then went to take it for a quick drive. I didn't even get into boost and it just died on me leaving me in a left hand turn lane stranded w/ a p0340. I tried to start it a few times to no avail so pushed it onto the side street. Sounds like no spark, not sure about compression.
Came back with tools a little later, inspected cam sensor looked for something I might have forgot to plug in. There was some residue on the bottom of the cam sensor, looked like tiny bits of ground up metal but super fine. There also appears to be a line in the center of the cam piece/wheel it reads, and a tiny bit of that residue there.
Got a friend to help me tow it the 1/4 mi back to my place. Pulled the Valve cover, chain looks ok, but there is some monkeys shit with RTV all over the face of the VVT wheel (I'll get a pic of this today). I did find on TINY TINY fleck of metal in there a few inches to the left of the cam sensor. Rotated the engine by hand, lined up the bolt hole on the reluctor wheel? and it looked like the rear cam was lined up perfectly horizontally. By this point it was about 2am and I was exhausted so I went to bed.

I guess my plans for today include:
-Pulling the HPFP again to inspect the cam follower/piston, and probably the cam follower to verify timing?
-Testing the cam sensor however I can
-Inspecting all wiring harnesses for abrasion/shorts

I was logging, albeit with torque when she died on me (haven't installed the AP yet). Here is a link to that log:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Any and all advice/help would be GREATLY appreciated, this thing has me pulling my hair out.

[C-love]

Here's some pics with the valve cover off. Can't even really see that line I mentioned on the cam wheel the sensor reads from. I wiped off the fine residue last night when I was rotating the engine by hand.

-Do you think that residue messed up the cam pos sensor? I did try starting it after wiping off the sensor, no dice. Haven't tried since cleaning that wheel it reads.

-Do you think that RTV on the VVT is an issue?

[C-love]

Well, god damnit. The spring retainer was not on the HFPF piston. I spent a lot of time trying to be sure that was on right. The tapped kept sitting weird, finally got it to sit straight and whacked it on there really good with the Corksport tool.
Cam follower doesn't look good, haven't pulled it yet. Guessing she jumped time and this is gonna be a PITA to remedy.
Seems like I had the same experience a this dude:

EDIT: The cam *Lobe* looks trashed, because the follower was missing. The more you know!

P0340 Car Died while driving

[C-love]

So currently it seems most probable to me I was sold the car w/o the cam follower. Attached is a pic of the stock internals, look to me like they were riding on the cam lobe. I had also noticed scratches on the cam lobe when I pulled it, but didn't know what I was looking at or I would've realized the follower was missing. Do you think it's possible I drove on it like this for 500 mi?

Looks like timing jumped 20 deg or so (i lined up the holes on the reluctor wheel). So at least new cam, timing job, possibly bent valves?

[MSMS3]

Holy shit! Look for the cam follower on the ground where you pulled the pump, or in the under tray, if it is still there. Sometimes it sticks to the pump as you lift it off of the head, and falls away.

You always check for it’s presence when reinstalling the pump. I think that is covered in the various installation videos, including the CS one.

But, now you have bigger problems. I hope you did not have valve/piston contact if it did jump time.

[C-love]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Holy shit! Look for the cam follower on the ground where you pulled the pump, or in the under tray, if it is still there. Sometimes it sticks to the pump as you lift it off of the head, and falls away. You always check for it’s presence when reinstalling the pump. I think that is covered in the various installation videos, including the CS one. But, now you have bigger problems. I hope you did not have valve/piston contact if it did jump time.

That last picture is of the stock piston and spring retainer clearly have grinding marks from riding on the cam lobe. Also when I pulled the HPFP, noticed the spring retainer was missing pieces, and went back to the housing I found them sitting on the lip there. At that time I noticed some scratches on the cam lobe but didn't think anything of it as I assumed that piston head rode on the cam lobe. Timing was done just before I bought it, dude must've left it out then. I'm hoping they're willing to work with me.

I thought I might try to relieve chain tension, line up the cams, and do a leakdown test in order to try and gauge the extent of the damage.

Thinking about it more and more this kinda explains all the issues I had progressing. Initially it seemed to run really well but I couldn't exceed 10-12 lbs of boost. I'm assuming the reduced piston travel on the HPFP explains this. Then probably at the point that I noticed the WOT hesitation it probably had progressed.

I watched so many videos and viewed so many threads for HPFP installs, somehow never noticed the follower/cup mentioned if it was. Went back and checked the CS video and it is visible when reinserting the pump, but not mentioned. I've never done this sort of thing before or I would've clearly noticed it missing.

I'm guessing bare minimum I need at least a new spring retainer for the new CS internals, intake cam, washers, timing job, prob HPFP cam housing.

It died so quietly I didn't even realize it until the TSC and battery dash lights popped on. I was logging w/ torque at the time. Never even touched boost, I did see a FT bank spike to 25 right before it died.

It looks to me like it jumped 20... maybe 25 degrees based on the attached pic. Anyone know how much the timing generally needs to be off before a valve/piston collision?

[Jeff23spl]

go read the how to VVT thread before attempting anything at your timing.
many parts cannot be re-used more than once.

new cam isn,t expensive and a used pump core may be found for cheap too.
you would need a timing tool and if it died quick, it doesn,t sound good for your valves and maybe not for the vvt pin either...

for someone with a good idea of cam rotating resistance against a valve to piston contact, i would try to remove plugs and gently turn the crank to check if some valves don,t have too much clearance. bent valves should seat lower....
The best remain to remove timing cover, remove chain, make sure VVT is ok and temporary put the old timing chain in place with the timing tool to take engine compression.
Or if you have a leak down tester, instead of re-installing the old chain, you may just remove both cams and check if valves leaks....
If you are lucky enough and all cylinders read ok, then i would do a complete timing job with all required parts including the a new chain, new bolts, new washers as explained in the how to thread.
I would also disamble the VVT to inspect the pin groove and replace it if bad.
I would also check valve to replaced cam gap, it may have shifted....

It is very likely that you find out bad compression and then, you will need to lift the head to get it rebuild and surfaced...

Dont mix the cam caps or the valves tapets on the process.

[C-love]

Hey Jeff,

Thanks I already read over the how to VVT a few times, and I'll sure I'll be referencing that and several other how to's when I do the timing.

It did die quick but I'm pretty sure this was the cam pos sensor which disabled spark as I clearly shifted more than 6 degrees. I'm really hoping the valves are ok...

I did check for valve/cam clearance yesterday. It seems the Max clearance I have is .008", but some were less than .005", so it seems I have too little clearance. YAY another potentially tedious job...lol.

It appears to me as though only the intake cam shifted, as the exhaust cam seems to line up with the crankshaft with the holes lined up on the reluctor wheel.

If I need to replace the intake cam friction washer anyways, is there any harm in loosening the VVT bolt to line the cams back up just for the leakdown test? It looks like I can get a wrench on there w/o removing the cover.

[Jeff23spl]

as long as you don't fire up the engine and torque it like it should, i don't think it will slip for a compression test but i would check if the VVT itself is ok first...I don't have any exact procedure to validate if the VVT pin is busted without opening it, but maybe rotating the crank back and forth and checking if the intake cam is following correctly in both ways??? Maybe someone else with fallen VVT experience can comment ?

[C-love]

UPDATE:
New intake cam in transit
Never got the leakdown done, but got in there with an endoscope and discovered I did indeed have valve contact. Looks to only be on the intake side, which makes sense as it looks like only the int cam slipped timing.

-Are there any special considerations I need to take when pulling the head to examine all of the valves?

-How would I determine if need a machine shop to look over the head as opposed to just replacing the bent valves, valve seals, head studs etc while I'm in there?

-Any recommendations regarding valves? Or where to buy them? I assume I'll just stick with OEM and replace just what's needed, clean the rest, replace valve seals, etc.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by C-love UPDATE: New intake cam in transit Never got the leakdown done, but got in there with an endoscope and discovered I did indeed have valve contact. Looks to only be on the intake side, which makes sense as it looks like only the int cam slipped timing. -Are there any special considerations I need to take when pulling the head to examine all of the valves? -How would I determine if need a machine shop to look over the head as opposed to just replacing the bent valves, valve seals, head studs etc while I'm in there? -Any recommendations regarding valves? Or where to buy them? I assume I'll just stick with OEM and replace just what's needed, clean the rest, replace valve seals, etc.

This is the top on a Gen 1 ‘Speed 3 piston for reference. Note the two valve reliefs on the outer edge of the top. This is not my car, but just a photo I snatched off of the Internet.

[C-love]

I've looked at a lot of piston pictures online trying to determine if I actually did have valve contact, but still don't really know. I've come across pictures like this (cheap aftermarket piston?) that seem to have the grooves like my photo. Also the carbon embedded in that groove made me think it had been that way for quite a while as the engine hasn't been run since the timing slipped.

My plans involve pulling the cams and doing the leakdown test before committing to pulling the head. I'm really curious about your thoughts on the matter MSMS3. Thanks for all the help everyone, it is greatly appreciated.

[Jeff23spl]

The larger mark is probably by factory but the smaller one is probably not...

You would better have a machinist repair the head, a lot of special tools and skills is needed. ....It will be cheaper than buying the tools with extra peace of mind and extra sealing. You will also need to have the face machined if you don't want coolant leaks...
Just putting it back properly with timing could be a journey....

BTW, new oem bolts are said to be better than the standard size ARP studs.

[C-love]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl The larger mark is probably by factory but the smaller one is probably not...

Yeah, I'm still hopeful that they might be factory marks. The carbon embedded in that groove gives me hope. I'm still planning on pulling the cams and performing the leakdown before committing to pulling the head.

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl You would better have a machinist repair the head, a lot of special tools and skills is needed. ....It will be cheaper than buying the tools with extra peace of mind and extra sealing. You will also need to have the face machined if you don't want coolant leaks... Just putting it back properly with timing could be a journey.... BTW, new oem bolts are said to be better than the standard size ARP studs.

Thanks, definitely will have a machine shop look it over if needed. I thin i would feel comfortable replacing valves, but the seats and refacing are beyond my tools/scope.

I just read through that massive "Let's talk about head studs" thread last night and I came to the same conclusion, as well as sticking with the OEM head gasket as I currently don't have any plans to exceed 400hp.

[Jeff23spl]

regardless of the problem, you have a timing job to do so removing the cams and check leak down and valve seated height won't gives much more work as long as you don't mix parts.

[C-love]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl regardless of the problem, you have a timing job to do so removing the cams and check leak down and valve seated height won't gives much more work as long as you don't mix parts.

Thanks guys, this was my plan regardless of opinions put forth. Works been running me ragged, and it seems to want to rain every time I get the idea to go work on it some more. I'm confident I'll get at least the leakdown done this weekend.

[C-love]

Well, the cheapo leakdown tester kit I got from amazon (looks just like the harbor freight model) is a POS. Can't really go past 20PSI w/o blowing out the "leak" gauge. I ran it that way on all 4 and saw about 15% leakage. I also hooked up 90PSI via my compressor line right to the cylinders. I listened very closely with a piece of tubing as a stethoscope, and could only hear air leaking around my headstuds and timing chain cover. No bubbles in the coolant, and not a whisper from the intake or exhaust.

I had done a compression test previously when it was still running and saw:
160 - 160 - 169 - 159

This all leads me to believe I did not have valve contact and my valves are fine. Those must be the OEM valve reliefs I saw with the endoscope. I may try to get a better leakdown tester and run that test again.

Beyond that my plans are to accurately measure my valve lash clearance and order buckets accordingly once I have the cams back in (new intake cam). once that is done just the timing job and hopefully she'll be back on the road!

[C-love]

Update:
Spoke with mechanic who did the timing before I bought the car. He replaced intake valves and apparently neglected to adjust the valve clearance. I think this explains the piston marks and the valve lash.

I ordered all the timing parts, and ordered the 15 buckets I need, although this was a PITA. Had to order some of them 3 times!!! New cam, used CDFP cam housing, and cam follower all here already. Corksport was great and sold me just the tappet I need to replace. I'm hoping everything will be here by this weekend but not holding my breath.

[C-love]

Finally got the timing job done and new valve tappets in this weekend. Got the rest in tonight. Also new intake cam, new VVT gear, used CDFP lobe housing (mine had a few nicks/dents inside).

That crank pulley bolt was a PITA. Wound up snagging an electric impact to get it off and had to get a universal pulley holder (OTC off amazon) to hold it tight enough to get that 90 deg. Previous mechanic who did the timing job left a bunch of RTV in the timing cover bolt holes so that was fun...brake cleaner and tap back and forth.

It looks like I'm getting the guy who sold me the car to reimburse me $450 for all the timing parts I needed, the intake cam, and the CDFP cam housing on account of selling me the vehicle w/o the cam follower for the HPFP.

Seems it's running well now. Broke the new cam in @ 2k rpm for 10 min, then took a little drive. Didn't fully open it up yet so IDK if I have my previous 10 psi limit/issue still. Thanks for all the help and for coming along the ride. I'm excited to get my accessport installed and get this thing tuned once I work out any issues that might still remain.