On The Matter of MW Injection

[Tomas]

The following are a few tests, observations and recommendations for MW injection systems. The system below is for a MS3 but the principles are applicable to other platforms.

1. Pump location

In this set up the pump was installed on the passenger side under the WWF reservoir. Most pumps in the 150-250 psi range will fit on either front side of the MS3 behind the bumper.
This set up uses a Labonte MW pump which can draw fluid from a reservoir below pump level. Check pump specs to make sure your pump can do this or you will have to mount the reservoir above the pump.

Installing the pump inside the cabin is possible but not recommended. First, the sound it makes when engaged can be annoying over time and second, you will want the pump to be as close to the spraying nozzles as possible. More on this later on.



2. Tank location

Initially, the intention was to draw fluid from the WWF reservoir via a bypass line from one of the hoses going to the windshield washer nozzles. This set up works. The MW pump can draw fluid through any of these lines. The impellers for both rear and front windshield washer pumps do not block fluid from the tank when not engaged. 2 problems can arise with this set up however:

A. If you are running 100% meth such as VP racing fuels brew you will be wasting methanol every time you spray your windshield to clean it.

B. There is a small risk of etching to components of the vehicle body such as rubber gaskets, windshield wipers, clear coat etc with prolonged exposure.

Due to these drawbacks, although negligible, it was decided to install a dedicated tank. Pictured below a 5 qt tank from Labonte Motorsports installed under the bumper on the driver's side. In this location, a remote filler is required. You can purchase one or make your own. Pictured below is a remote filler made with components available at most hardware stores. It consists of the following:

* about 1 ft of hose.
* 1x elbow with 1/2" NPT thread on one side and a barbed end on the other.
* 1x straight coupling with 1/2" NPT thread on one side and a barbed end on the other
* 1x 1 1/2" threaded PVC end cap
* 1x 1 1/2" threaded PVC plug for above referenced end cap.
* 2 hose clamps.
* Teflon tape
* 1 zip tie

Assembly should be fairly self intuitive by looking at the pictures below.







You can install an inline filter on the SUCTION line of the pump as pictured below but it is not entirely necessary. It's an inexpensive addition however and provides added safety.
Do not install on the pressure line from the pump to the nozzle.



Note: Some chose to install a tank inside the cabin. One needs to question the safety aspect of such a set up in case of coalitions. There is also a risk of damage to the interior carpet and annoying odors in case of spillage or leaks.

3. Controller

There are a variety of controllers available from different vendors. You can choose a progressive one or a simpler one with an on/of signal. Both are powered by 12V which can be drawn from the fuse box or another + 12V source. The controllers also need to be grounded. Some recommend engine ground but chassis ground works fine. For the 12V power connection you can use a flat pin crimped to a cable and then stick in in one of the empty fuse slots in the fuse box, or more elegantly, a fuse tap such as in this set up.

Depending on the type of controller, the signal used to activate the MW injection pump can be drawn and shared from/by the OEM map sensor, an incorporated MAP sensor in the controller, a separate MAP sensor, or by reading the pulse width of the injectors as is the case with some Aquamist controllers. On progressive controllers using a MAP signal the pump will engage at an adjustable initial boost setting and ramp up pressure as boost goes up. A second setting determines max flow. Some controllers such as the Labonte one can withstand engine bay temperatures. Others such as the Devil's Own one can not and are supposed to be installed inside the cabin. This set up uses a Labonte Controller mounted on the driver's side front strut tower. The signal is acquired by installing a tee on the hose going to the bypass valve and routing the hose leaving the branch to the barbed fitting on the controller as pictured below. The barbed fitting on the controller has a smaller diameter than the hose used on the bypass valve. You will need to either install a tee with the branch smaller than the runs, or if you install a tee with the runs and branches matched to the bypass valve hose diameter a reducer on the hose going to the controller. Any vacuum hose available at car parts stores or silicone hose should work fine. You can secure the hose on the tee and barbed fitting with hose clamps or as used in this example with zip ties.





This is a guide from Devil's Own on wiring of their controller using the stock MAP signal.

mazda.pdf

4. Nozzle sizes

Nozzles from most MW injection system vendors are denominated with either an "M" or a "DO" followed by a number. The number following both types of denomination specify flow rating in GPH at 100 psi working pressure. So D03 and M3 nozzles both flow 3 gph at 100 psi and so on.

This is a guide provided by Labonte for nozzle sizes to be used according to HP targets.

NozzleGuide.pdf

5. Nozzle location

This is where it gets tricky. The nozzle mounting adapters for rubber or plastic tubes offered by all vendors seem to be the same. These mounting adapters appear to be faulty in design.
Following video shows the correct spray pattern of a D05 nozzle used as an example. The nozzle is unrestricted and the atomized fluid sprays the way it should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Pag_9BBjo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Pag_9BBjo

Second video below shows the same D05 nozzle installed on a mounting adapter during a spraying cycle. Clearly, the degree of atomization is greatly constricted by the length of the male piece of the adapter. The standard MW nozzles have a fairly wide spray pattern of around 90 to 120 degrees. The adapter is simply too long and when the nozzle sprays most of the mist hits the inner wall of the adapter resulting in a flow of bubbly juice instead of the desired finely atomized mist of air and fluid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lPlMaSm98c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lPlMaSm98c

There are a few ways to get around this problem:

A. Refrain from using a mounting adapter and tap/intall nozzle on any of the metallic connecting pieces between the outlet of the intercooler and throttle body.

This is the preferred method when using a single or dual nozzle. in the MS3 this would be the cast aluminum piece on connected to the cold side of the IC which also holds the bypass valve. Try to tap a surface that is not more than 4-5 mm thick of you will encounter the same problem as having a standard mounting adapter and the mist turned into sauce will just cascade down the hallway.
Note: Some of the mist will divert into the turbo inlet when the bypass valve opens since the system will be under boost (injecting) when this happens. With prolonged use there is a small, but also negligible risk of pitting to the compressor wheel of the turbocharger as a result of the mist impelling the wheel at high velocity. If possible, try to install downstream of the BPV.

A note on securing the nozzles: do not relay on the supplied o-rings to ensure a seal between the nozzle and the part you are securing it in. The o-rings disintegrate after a few months when exposed to engine bay temperatures. Use a thread securing compound such as red Locktite or equivalent and discard o-rings.

B. Use a straight pipe or elbow with a 1/8 npt bung, silicon hose couplings and t-bolt clamps.

As you can fix the mounting adapter issue with some machining as explained below, this solution might be irrelevant and not necessarily better than using the modified adapter.

C. Install individual nozzles on each runner of the intake manifold.

This provides the highest cooling efficiency and most accurate proportions of mist between cylinders at the expense of higher cost and more labor. The drawback with this set up is that you will have to compromise when changing nozzle sizes. For example: if you have 4x D04 nozzles (4 gph total) and you want to spray more you would have to either use 4x D02 nozzles (increasing total flow to 8 gph) or use a fifth nozzle upstream of the throtle body to get to flow rates between 4 and 8 gph.

D. Cut down the length of the mounting adapter and machine or grind a counter sunk edge to the end of the male part of the mounting adapter. In addition, cut thread on the mounting part of the nozzle all the way to the start of the thread of the connecting part of the nozzle as pictured below. You will also need to use a 1/8 NPT tap to cut the thread inside the male part of the adapter in order for the modified nozzle to screw in deeper. What you are trying to do here is have the nozzle go in as deep as possible into the adapter so it does not restrict the spray pattern.



You can use a saw to cut down to size and power tools such as a dremel to grind a counter sunk profile inside the male adapter. Or you can use a lathe.




NOTE: On experimenting with smaller and smaller sized it was found that the male adapter needs to be cut down to at leas 14mm in length. Anything longer and the spray will still hit the inner walls of the adapter. Watch out however as if you cut the adapter to less than about 12 mm you will not be able to secure the nut, or female part of the adapter onto the male one once it is installed int the rubber elbow (OEM cold pipe)

This is how the nozzle will spray if you follow above recommendations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zy5ZkuKwjA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zy5ZkuKwjA

A few additional observations....

*** Install the pump as close as possible to the nozzle(s). The fluid loses pressure the longer it has to travel through the hose. The more pressure the better for atomizing the fluid. It is better to have a pump produce high pressure with a small nozzle than to have a large nozzle with low pressure. It is also better to have multiple small nozzles instead of a big one.

*** Use a solenoid and use it as close as possible to the nozzle(s). If you have a long stretch of hose between the solenoid and the nozzle the same principle stated above will occur. The residual pressure between the solenoid and the nozzle will cause the nozzle to ejaculate, ha ha, a straight shot of fluid that does not atomize. From the conducted tests with the nozzle adapter it was found that the longer the hose between the solenoid and the nozzle the more fluid would leak once the solenoid shut of. A check valve did not help significantly here. In fact, they were found to hardly make a difference.

Below a pic of a solenoid installed on top of the radiator on an MS3 and secured with zip ties.



*** When tapping any piece of aluminum for the nozzle, due to the short length of the thread on the nozzle, try to tap the hole in 1/2 turn increments. You'll be surprised to find that if you tap the hole a certain amount, and the nozzle won't go in all the way on the thread, that turning the tap a complete turn might already make the nozzle sit loose on the threaded hole. The relationship between turning the tap and how deep the nozzle will screw into the hole is not linear. Again, do not rely on the provided o-rings to provide a seal. From 8 o-rings used over the last months none held longer than a few weeks exposed to engine bay temps.

[Tomas]

Oil sample after 3500 miles of driving with standard nozzle adapter and D04 nozzle.
As expected, fuel dilution is excessively high. The high insolubles are probably due to all the soot on the head and valves the MW fluid was washing away given that the system was installed at 22K miles.

Disregard comment about cold start prior to oil sampling. Sample was taken after 40 miles of spirited highway driving.


Oil Sample MS3.gif

Next: oil sample after another 3500 miles with machined nozzle holder.

Edit:

Ok, only drove the vehicle for another 2.5k miles with one track day in between.
Sample looks all right. Flashpoint is still a little high but much better than last time. Water in the oil is non existent so I would think the water in the meth mix is no reason for concern as far as oil goes.

[Docnox]

Great write-up. Why did you put your tank and pump on opposite sides? You couldn't fit the pump on the driver's side under the tank??

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Docnox Great write-up. Why did you put your tank and pump on opposite sides? You couldn't fit the pump on the driver's side under the tank??

Originally, I wanted to use the WWF reservoir so the pump on that side made sense. It might fit under tank at the driver's side, but it'd be tighter than Taliban pussy down there.

[taf0422]

I looked into mounting my tank/pump on the drivers side but its definitely a no go when you have a cai and fmic piping in there. lol. So I have a fill spout if anyone needs it. lol

great write up!

[Docnox]

I was originally gonna use my washer tank but now I'm deciding where to mount a separate one. I'm leaning towards the trunk so I don't have to worry about engine space. You talked me outta using the nozzle mounting adapter as well.

[wankular]

With tanks mounted in the bumper - how do you know when it's getting low?
Also, I hope you have a copy of this saved somewhere, in case there's another crash.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by wankular With tanks mounted in the bumper - how do you know when it's getting low? Also, I hope you have a copy of this saved somewhere, in case there's another crash.

If you opt for the the float in the tank, there is a light that will light up when the tank gets to a certain point.

[Post pwned]

You would want to put the float a little past half way
With all the bumps, jerking and tight turns when it's low.
Wouldn't that cause air in the lines kinda like skips in
Spraying cycle? And if so if that bad or less effective?

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by Post pwned You would want to put the float a little past half way With all the bumps, jerking and tight turns when it's low. Wouldn't that cause air in the lines kinda like skips in Spraying cycle? And if so if that bad or less effective?

The float is not a air line it is just a sensor located in the picture below. It is recommended that the float be placed about an 1inch above the bottom of the tank. This is why you have to constantly monitor the level of your meth tank but unless you are so aggressively tuned with meth there will not be any real worry about it running dry...( I wouldn't recommend it though)

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/ima...with-float.jpg

[Post pwned]

Originally Posted by taf0422 The float is not a air line it is just a sensor located in the picture below. It is recommended that the float be placed about an 1inch above the bottom of the tank. This is why you have to constantly monitor the level of your meth tank but unless you are so aggressively tuned with meth there will not be any real worry about it running dry...( I wouldn't recommend it though) http://www.alcohol-injection.com/ima...with-float.jpg

Sorry that's what I ment about the float,placing it high so you have almost half left so your not running dry or getting dry spots from splashing.
But you did answer that^^^ thanks

[themytb]

good info here, I thank you. BTW wire nuts FTL

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by taf0422 The float is not a air line it is just a sensor located in the picture below. It is recommended that the float be placed about an 1inch above the bottom of the tank. This is why you have to constantly monitor the level of your meth tank but unless you are so aggressively tuned with meth there will not be any real worry about it running dry...( I wouldn't recommend it though) http://www.alcohol-injection.com/ima...with-float.jpg

I use a sort of fail safe method with ATR in case there is a malfunction in the MW system.
High BAT flag ON is set at 120 degs and High BAT flag OFF at 118. I am running 19-20 psi boost and without MW BAT's past 5K rpm at WOT go to about 130. From previous tests without MW installed I noticed KR would appear at around 125 degs so if there is something wrong with the MW system and BATs pass 120 degs, the the ECU will switch to the HIGH BAT req. load tables by gear which are about 20% lower than the regular ones. I've tested it and it seems to work.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Docnox I was originally gonna use my washer tank but now I'm deciding where to mount a separate one. I'm leaning towards the trunk so I don't have to worry about engine space. You talked me outta using the nozzle mounting adapter as well.

You can install the tank in the trunk but I would consider the safety aspect of having it there. If you are in a collision or you turn the car over there is a risk you will have juice go all over the place. Including spilling it on passengers.

If you are thinking about installing the pump by the tank keep in mind the pump is noisy and will probably annoy you after a while.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by Tomas You can install the tank in the trunk but I would consider the safety aspect of having it there. If you are in a collision or you turn the car over there is a risk you will have juice go all over the place. Including spilling it on passengers. If you are thinking about installing the pump by the tank keep in mind the pump is noisy and will probably annoy you after a while.

I have the Devils own pump and you can't hear anything while it is on (mines in the trunk)...the only way I knew my pump was running was by putting my hand on it. lol. Especially not with the noise level of a modified car are you going to hear the pump running.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by taf0422 I have the Devils own pump and you can't hear anything while it is on (mines in the trunk)...the only way I knew my pump was running was by putting my hand on it. lol. Especially not with the noise level of a modified car are you going to hear the pump running.

yeah, a DP & TP probably drowns all other noises away.
Another aspect to keep in mind is that unless you have a solenoid close to the nozzle it will leak a lot given that when the pump stops pumping there will be residual pressure on the line from the trunk to the nozzle. Also, the pressure will not be as high as having the pump close to the nozzle.

Do a test with the nozzle out and different hose lengths and you will see.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by Tomas yeah, a DP & TP probably drowns all other noises away. Another aspect to keep in mind is that unless you have a solenoid close to the nozzle it will leak a lot given that when the pump stops pumping there will be residual pressure on the line from the trunk to the nozzle. Also, the pressure will not be as high as having the pump close to the nozzle. Do a test with the nozzle out and different hose lengths and you will see.

I'm sure there is a difference in pressure due to the length. That is why I have my pump coming on earlier than I would have if it was up close. Car is also pro-tuned to have the meth on there so I'm pretty sure the bugs are all worked out. I also have the solenoid attached to the 90 degree bend that goes to the nozzle...You don't need to tell me what to test for.

[Tomas]

subsequent oil sample with machined nozzle holder added to 2nd post.

[YokiMazoku]

I know this is an old thread but im wondering how the hell is everyone putting the hose in the cap. At first i thought you using a different cap but then i see in the picture it looks like the same cap that comes with the kit did u just drill a hole in the cap and put the hose in it? If so how are you secure it do it doesnt come out or leak? Sorry to bring back such an old thread!!!

Oh i almost forgot i see you say you can buy a remote filler where can you buy one?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by YokiMazoku I know this is an old thread but im wondering how the hell is everyone putting the hose in the cap. At first i thought you using a different cap but then i see in the picture it looks like the same cap that comes with the kit did u just drill a hole in the cap and put the hose in it? If so how are you secure it do it doesnt come out or leak? Sorry to bring back such an old thread!!! Oh i almost forgot i see you say you can buy a remote filler where can you buy one?

Hose in the cap?
Not sure what you mean.
The remote filler is DIY with Home Depot parts.

[Abilor]

LOL. I mounted my tank right under my intake filter. Nothing beats just opening it up, filling with funnel, and done.

[Jsn_Rob]

Great info. This is my next install. Can't wait to tackle this job.

[zatara]

Really awesome write up. I'll likely end up positioning my setup similar to what Abilor said he did. But the amount of information on everything is super detailed. Really well done, Tomas.

[Nazarite]

How fast do you guys running 50/50 go through meth? Say, how many quarts/tank of gas?

[wolly6973]

I just started running 50/50 through a D05 and it's not much.
I did about 15-20 4th gear pulls and used a little over 1 qt.

I am putting on the D07 as soon as I get home this weekend, and we will see how much more it takes.

[Abilor]

Man, I was running the D07, and it sucked it right down. D05 has been more reasonable at rate of use, but it still goes down quick. Must be my lead foot. By quick, I mean I use 3 quarts of meth per one tank of gas, roughly.

[SLOWHATCH]

Anyone know if the D.O nozzle adapter will fit the AEM kit?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH Anyone know if the D.O nozzle adapter will fit the AEM kit?

They all use 1/8 National Pipe Thread nozzles and nozzle holders.

Most brand parts are interchangeable.

Right now, I'm running snow nozzles, an AEM check valve and DO tubing.

Edit: 1/8" npt

[SLOWHATCH]

Thanks man. I just read somewhere else that snowperformance also makes a nozzle adapter. Can't decide it I actually want to just have the hard part of the cold pipe tapped or just the rubber piece?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH Thanks man. I just read somewhere else that snowperformance also makes a nozzle adapter. Can't decide it I actually want to just have the hard part of the cold pipe tapped or just the rubber piece?

That rubber piece and adapter seems to be problematic.

@wolly6973 is on point and had a hell of a time with it.

[Dust]

I wanted to link to this thread, so that those who are running water meth will know what to look for if their UOAs show up out of whack.

How H20 Meth effects engine oil - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

Understand the truck is a hauler, and is probably spraying most of the time, and he counts in gallons instead of quarts, but if they tell you you have a coolant leak, and you are using WWF, you might know why, and want to try it with a different fluid.

[zatara]

I would hope that would be pretty obvious to run distilled water. Where do people think all the impurities will end up if they run straight tap water?

Hell, the water I use at home to water my plants is heavy in calcium, I use terracotta pots and after 5 months of watering once a week, the entire bottom of the pot, calcium has started to grow on the outside of the pot. I don't want to imagine what that would do to my engine when I start running meth.

[thatsmrgimp2u]

Im using the DO adapter for the silicone inlet into the TB. It was tough getting that thing tight, but mine does not leak at all. I like having the meth closer to the tb, and after the BPV so it wont get to the turbo.

[wolly6973]

Did you test the spray with the adapter off of the car?

If not, I highly recommend that you do, and you probably won't like what you see.

[thatsmrgimp2u]

No i havent yet. I know people had issues with the longer style adapters. I cant imagine the nozzle being more than 8mm away from where this actually enters the tube. Are you talking about the poor atomization upon entry?
This is the one im talking about:

[wolly6973]

That's what I'm talking about. I tried it with the adapter and nozzle in my DO kit, and it sprayed just as shitty as everyone said. It looked like it was coming from a hose nozzle instead of a nice fine mist.

[thatsmrgimp2u]

Alright well ill check it out. What did you wind up doing instead? and did you notice any difference in BAT's when you moved it?

[wolly6973]

I tapped the cold pipe.

My BATs don't change much with the D07 & 50/50 until after I let off from WOT. Then they drop it like it's hot.

[rfinkle2]

If you guys wanna try that adapter, I think you need deeper threads.

Check out Snow performance's nozzles...

Snow Performance: Nozzles

[Abilor]

I use the adapter. It's tight as hell. Works fantastic. Sits just above the TB and mists very well. Drops 20+ degrees with a D05@200psi at only 12 psi boost; 60/40 Meth/Distilled water.