Methanol Direct Injection

[phate]

We all know that running water/meth injection (WMI) kits is beneficial for increasing octane and decreasing BAT's. We also know that direct injection (DI) is ridiculously awesome, because all of the heat is absorbed in the cylinder. We have found that running even small mixes of ethanol in our fuel system gives us enough effective octane to hit MBT without knock (Ethanol direct injection - EDI). The amount of heat ethanol absorbs is significantly higher than gas.

So the next logical step, of course, is the venture towards methanol direct injection (MDI).

The issue with running ethanol and methanol has always been their corrosive nature. Congress has mandated that vehicles be able to handle ethanol as a fuel, and we know we can run E85 in our cars without the seals and lines being eaten away or swelling. There has been no extensive testing of methanol with our OE fuel system.

PHASE 1 - Fuel Line Testing

I had an extra fuel line from my early E85 stages. This is the line that goes from the hard line at the firewall to the HPFP - it's the one with round, blue clips. I thought this would be a good candidate for testing methanol on the seals and lines, without running methanol in my car. [Ethanol didn't worry me, methanol does.] I pulled this line apart, and pulled the seals out and took measurements of everything so we can track the effects of methanol.

This is the line I'm talking about:



The line actually has split wire loom and a rubbery cover over it:



Here's what's on the actual line, itself. Maybe we can track down what this stuff is if we ever need to:



The ends have what seem to be 4 important pieces. Red is hard plastic, and seems to be a spacer to hold the seals in place. Green is an actual seal. Blue is another spacer between the Green and Black seal. Black is an actual seal. If you were to look into the end of the line, the order would go red/green/blue/black. Meaning black is on the line side, and red is on the connection side.



Measurements from each of these:

Red:
.050-.055" Thick - these got a little marred when I pulled them
.222-.225" Tall

Green:
.065" Width O-Ring

Blue:
.069-.070" Tall
.035-.037" Thick

Black:
.065" Width O-Ring

Fuel Line:
.032" Wall Thickness
.310" OD

I didn't get ID/OD's of the O-rings, because I cut these in half for the testing. That gave me 4 test vessels

The setup:

1) 100% Shell 93 octane - Control

2) 10% Methanol/90% 93

3) 25% Methanol/75% 93

4) 50% Methanol/50% 93



I will check these periodically. I was thinking every 2 weeks or so I could take a measurement. I'll give them a good swirl whenever I'm out in the garage and just keep an eye on them for any apparent changes. I was really hoping to see something blow up like those capsule animals, but that just didn't happen.

I didn't see any sense in testing E85 with these, as we already know the seals and lines hold up to ethanol. This isn't a comprehensive test, of course. We don't know if our fuel tank and fuel pump will hold up to methanol. This was just a simple test that may move us forward to testing the other components.

This idea originally came from here with @802MS3's question: M85 anyone?

UPDATES (phase 1)

5/20 - Around 7pm CST - pieces dropped into solution for testing.

5/21 - ~14 hours in: The black seal in the 50% solution looks to be swelling. This is the only change I see so far.

5/22 - ~48 hours in: 50% Methanol Solution: Black O-Ring - .076" Width (compared to .065" original) - kept in same solution to watch further changes

5/28 - 6 Days in: No further changes. 50% solution's black O-Ring still swelled to .076". All parts removed from solutions. Waiting to see if black O-Ring returns to normal size.

5/29 - 1 Day out of solution: Black O-Ring is back to original .065".

PHASE 2 - Injector O-Ring/Spacer Testing

I received the injector O-Rings and phenolic spacers from Ziggo yesterday, so I measured them and dropped them into solution.



Blue O-Ring:
.212-.215" Tall (Diameter not measured due to O-Ring damage)

Black Spacer:
.038-.041" Tall

Red Spacer:
.028-.032" Tall

These were dropped into the same solution setup:

1) 100% Shell 93 octane - Control

2) 10% Methanol/90% 93

3) 25% Methanol/75% 93

4) 50% Methanol/50% 93

UPDATES (phase 2)

5/31 - Around 7pm CST - Seals and Spacers dropped into solutions.

6/1 - ~12 Hours in - Blue O-Ring looks to be swelled in the 50% solution.

6/5 - 5 Days in:
00% Methanol - Blue O-Ring measured .218-.222"
10% Methanol - Blue O-Ring measured .220-.222"
25% Methanol -Blue O-Ring measured .229-.230"
50% Methanol - Blue O-Ring measured .247-.248" & Red Spacer measured .032-.034"

6/5 Results are possibly skewed for Blue O-Rings. All Blue O-Ring measurements (including the control) changed from original. Black and Red spacer measurements remained consistent, so I don't think my measuring skills or caliper are off. It is possibly they were still expanding from their slightly crushed state when I received them. The difference between solutions is still telling, though...

[phate]

No more double merge, post away

I'll update this one with some articles I have found over the past year or so about EDI/MDI.

Effective Octane And Efficiency Advantages Of Direct Injection Alcohol Engines - MIT - http://web.mit.edu/mitei/lfee/progra...2008-01-rp.pdf

[Dmurray06]

In first. For results. No e85 in Canada. Meth FTW. Thx @phate .

[cld12pk2go]

Much win in this thread I sense...

[ckMS3]

Subba dub dubbed in the tub

Give me your brain.

[jman46]

Damn phate, E85 AND meth? Maybe NASA will be able to copy your setup since you'll be able to get to the moon now lol. Nice work, waiting on results now.

[atvfreek]

Time to buy stock in heet. Can't wait to see how those o-rings and plastic hold up!

[802MS3]

@xxdjfate76xx why you being a fag and groaning this man's awesome post?

[jman46]

You know why he did?

[ryno077]

Awesomeness. Subbed for results

[dantes5823]

Subbed.

[SLOWHATCH]

Guys please don't crap up the thread posting "subbed"

Use the thread tools box at top of page.

[f-castrillo]

Subbed for results! Taking our platform to a new level

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

[xxdjfate76xx]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 @xxdjfate76xx why you being a fag and groaning this man's awesome post?

Fat finger iPhone fail

.. Anyway, this is a great experiment. Maybe try incorporating operating temps??

[Lex]

I'm going to venture that 10-20% is probably fine. This was an old trick to pass emissions people did on much older cars.

[Speed_j23]

Can't wait to see the results! Hopefully it'll be possible to run it with out any problems.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH Guys please don't crap up the thread posting "subbed" Use the thread tools box at top of page.

Personally I do that for the ones I'm really interested in so I get tapatalk notifications, which don't show up when you use the suscribe tool.

Have you started a thread on your current dealings with this?

[phate]

OP Updated. I'll keep updating the OP with any info about changes, as well as posting in here to let you guys know what is going on.

Went out to the garage this morning to take a look at any progress. The black O-Ring in the 50% solution looks to be swelled. I think I'll take everything out tonight and measure.

[SLOWHATCH]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Personally I do that for the ones I'm really interested in so I get tapatalk notifications, which don't show up when you use the suscribe tool. Have you started a thread on your current dealings with this?

Fair enough.

I have only posted butt dyno, initial impressions and vd plot on the other M85 thread. At this point I don't think another thread is needed, at least not from me. If I find anything new ill likely just post here or the other thread to keep everything together.

[phate]

You guys can shit in this thread all you want. I'm going to keep all of the information I collect in the first two posts.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by phate You guys can shit in this thread all you want. I'm going to keep all of the information I collect in the first two posts.

Ok great! I'll start shitting it up now!

J/k. Hey Clint, have you wondered about how the new injector tables (specific gravity ... easy enough) but the scalar will work with a substantial concentation of M?

[Ziggo]

You want some of my trashed fuel line spacers and orings?


Zigatapatalka

[phate]

Originally Posted by Ziggo You want some of my trashed fuel line spacers and orings? Zigatapatalka

Sure, the more we can test outside of the car the better. I'll PM you when I'm back on my PC, and not on my phone.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH Fair enough. I have only posted butt dyno, initial impressions and vd plot on the other M85 thread. At this point I don't think another thread is needed, at least not from me. If I find anything new ill likely just post here or the other thread to keep everything together.

Just want to make sure I don't miss anything

Originally Posted by phate You guys can shit in this thread all you want. I'm going to keep all of the information I collect in the first two posts.

Aaaahhhh, no more 63 pages of posts containing valuable information sporadically spread through it? I'm gonna miss all the "I just spent 10hrs a day for the past 3 days reading this! Thanks for all the information @phate!" posts.

[phate]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Ok great! I'll start shitting it up now! J/k. Hey Clint, have you wondered about how the new injector tables (specific gravity ... easy enough) but the scalar will work with a substantial concentation of M?

Looks like we have a scalar limit of 2.48 and Specific Gravity limit of 1.00. Should be plenty for even 100% methanol.

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Just want to make sure I don't miss anything Aaaahhhh, no more 63 pages of posts containing valuable information sporadically spread through it? I'm gonna miss all the "I just spent 10hrs a day for the past 3 days reading this! Thanks for all the information phate!" posts.

Yeah, that thread got a little out of control. Great information, throughout, but I sure as hell don't want to read through 60+ pages of it.

[vrspeed10]

in for results.. this is why dizzy rocks!!!

[Roddiy]

@phate

What's the price of Methanol / Gal compared to Ethanol?

Would the power gains (theoretically) be worth it?

[BigRedSpecial]

Have you given any thought to throwing some bits of aluminum in there to check for corrosion? Effects on seals is only half the concern.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Roddiy @phate What's the price of Methanol / Gal compared to Ethanol? Would the power gains (theoretically) be worth it?

Methanol ranges anywhere from a few bucks a gallon to $10+/gallon. It depends on where and what form you get it in. Race fuel distributors and chemical companies are probably the cheapest. You can get it in the form of HEET, or as methyl hydrate (paint thinner of sorts), but that's where it gets expensive.

This is more for the guys who don't have E85 available. I doubt there will be much (if any) power gain over E85 on the K04 (or on a give amount of air mass, in general). Ethanol has an effective octane of ~160 in DI engines, and methanol around 180. So, small amounts have a huge benefit, as we have seen with ethanol.

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Have you given any thought to throwing some pits of aluminum in there to check for corrosion? Effects on seals is only half the concern.

Yep, but I don't have an extra fuel rail or any hard lines, lol. Like I mentioned, this is definitely not a comprehensive test. Just something to get the ball rolling.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by phate Yep, but I don't have an extra fuel rail or any hard lines, lol. Like I mentioned, this is definitely not a comprehensive test. Just something to get the ball rolling.

Gotcha, I was just thinking anything at all, scraps of metal or whatever... just to show if there was a cutoff concentration for accelerated corrosion. Definitely wouldn't be comprehensive but could give some idea of when metal parts will start to be at risk.

[Ingle]

If you can get a hold of another set of the O-Rings and spacers, you should try an E85/Methanol mix which my belief would be the next logical progression to colonizing space.

[Lex]

Aluminum will for sure become corroded by methanol.

What materials are compatible with methanol?
Pure methanol is non-corrosive to most metals (not including lead, magnesium and platinum) at ambient temperatures. However, coatings of copper (or copper alloys), zinc (including galvanized steel) or aluminum are attacked at high temperatures and more slowly at ambient temperatures. Stainless steel and carbon steel are typically used in Methanex plants.

Plastics are generally not recommended for storage purposes due to long-term deterioration of the material and the subsequent risk of methanol contamination.

Many resins, nylons and rubbers, particularly nitrile (Buna-N), ethylene-propylene, teflon and neoprene are used satisfactorily as components of equipment in methanol service.

Source: http://www.methanex.com/products/faqs.html

Concerns with methanol's corrosivity have been addressed by using methanol-compatible materials, and fuel additives that serve as corrosion inhibitors.

Low levels of methanol can be used in existing vehicles, with the use of proper cosolvents and corrosion inhibitors. The European Fuel Quality Directive allows up to 3% methanol with an equal amount of cosolvent to be blending in gasoline sold in Europe.

Source: Wikipedia

Corrosion inhibitors:
Brine Anti Corrosion Chemicals - Methanol Brine Corrosion Inhibitor

Some of you may notice that the aluminum bodies of your meth/WMI pumps get pitting and aluminum corrosion - this is due to the methanol running through these and I don't think they are expected to have an infinite shelf life. Again, it's all about concentrations here.

[BigRedSpecial]

I'm excited to try this out as soon as I get back home; anxious to see the results from your testing.

[802MS3]

would really love to run meth in my fuel. no e85 in all of NH, ME, or VT, and no plans to bring it here. really pumped to get some thoughts together.

[p057]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 would really love to run meth in my fuel. no e85 in all of NH, ME, or VT, and no plans to bring it here. really pumped to get some thoughts together.

e85 would be at minimum 22 miles away from me (one way) to just get a little bit added to my tank. It would be pretty cost prohibitive.

Whereas if I could get my own generic supply of methanol and add as I please to my existing tank, it would greatly help with this florida heat!

[phate]

Originally Posted by p057 e85 would be at minimum 22 miles away from me (one way) to just get a little bit added to my tank. It would be pretty cost prohibitive. Whereas if I could get my own generic supply of methanol and add as I please to my existing tank, it would greatly help with this florida heat!

I know of a lot of guys that grab 5-10 gallons of E85 at a time, and add 2-3 gallons to each fill up. Might be cost effective, since methanol will likely be a bit more expensive per gallon.

[shawn.]

Originally Posted by phate I know of a lot of guys that grab 5-10 gallons of E85 at a time, and add 2-3 gallons to each fill up. Might be cost effective, since methanol will likely be a bit more expensive per gallon.

this. i use a 5 gallon mix, and drive 20 minutes one way for e85. just pick up around 10 gallons or so when you go and it's not that big of a deal. i drive out every 1.5-2 weeks and usually enjoy the drive anyways lol

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by phate I know of a lot of guys that grab 5-10 gallons of E85 at a time, and add 2-3 gallons to each fill up. Might be cost effective, since methanol will likely be a bit more expensive per gallon.

Last guy I tuned I added about 5-6° by only using 2 gal E85 per tank over pump gas. Epic benefit and he just purchased 15-20 gal from the E85 station like 30 min from his house every few months.

Not a bad setup.

[Boosted Beluga]

I use a 3 gal e85 mix and drive 20-25 mins one way. (10 miles mostly streets tho) I fill up a total of 15 gals plus put 3 gals in the car. Lasts about 5 weeks.

[J-Liss]

nice one