My Port Injection Set Up

[SilverDemon]

This has been something I have wanted to do for quite a while now. I had to put it on hold until the intake manifold was on the market, I just couldn't take on 2 projects at the same time.

I talked to several techs (that are much more knowledgeable than I am about AUX fueling) about fuel injector options, fuel rails, hoses and sizes that would be able to handle the amount of fuel I need. The guys at Ballenger Motorsports ? High Performance Electronics were by far the most versed at setting this system up.

After talking to them for almost 45mins we decided that these were the best injectors to run. Home » Shop » Fuel » Injectors » Siemens DEKA IV ( DEKA 4 ) Mototron 60lb/hour High Impedance Injectors ( Short Style ) These are 60 lb 4 orifice 30° spray pattern high impedance injectors. 43mm in length, with an installed length of just under 24mm, this is a plus when installing in the tight confines of my engine bay.



Next, I went to Dash 6 Fuel Rail Extrusion - Ross Machine Racing for the fuel rail and bungs. These are high quality pieces, and best of all they are cheap, probably the cheapest part of the install. Now I have a blank fuel rail, I needed to cut o-ring ports for the injectors. The injectors are a standard domestic 14mm o-ring. For those of you that are into machining will appreciate how difficult it is to accurately cut an o-ring port. But never fail RmR has a beautiful tool already modified to cut a perfect o-ring port, It is pricey, but to me, worth every penny. 14mm Injector Port Tool

Now I have all the components to start modifying the intake manifold, by far the most nerve racking part of this install. I stopped by my buddy's machine shop since he has the proper fixtures to set this up properly. The angle of the injectors are 40°. We started off by cutting the bungs at the proper angle and length, which the length ended up being .620" on the short side at 40°.

The next step cooked my noodle for a minuet. The manifold was bolted to the table upside down and backwards. I struggled with what angle the table was to be set. At first, I thought this will be easy, I need a 40° on the injector, so the table has to be set at 40°. Wrong answer, it has to be set at the other half of 90°, so the table has to be set at 50°.

Next was to figure out where the long side of the bung would hit on the runner. I wanted to hold off the head plate .950" to give the most time to let the fuel atomize and also to hold the spray off of the divider in the head. Normally doing something like this on a 90° cut to the plane would be a simple calculation of the total of distance plus half the diameter of the cutter to achieve the center line. Well, when you throw an angle into the equation it gets a little more complicated. There are formulas to figure this out, but my cave man brain could not figure it out. So, I called my buddy over (knowing that I was in over my head) and asked him. He mentioned that there was more to this than a hard and fast calculation. He implemented some Kentucky windage, more to allow for tool flex on a longer cutter than anything.

We used a 1/2" end mill first just in case something was not right with his set up. He was able to hit it the very first time, sigh of relief!!





Next up was an undersized 3/4" end mill. The injector bungs actual measured .743".





Now I have a pocket in the runner to help orient the bungs for welding. Fits like a glove!!







I was still worried about keeping everything lined up with the heat from the welding process. I was not going to put the injectors in the rail and in the bung while I had the bungs tacked welded in place. Too much heat for my liking. I made some dummy injectors.



Fuel rail was next. Pretty much self explanatory.





Mock up of the dummy injectors. The rail looks a little crooked because they are just sitting in place and the bung slipped into the pocket.





Mocked up in the car with injectors. I need to trim the rail down about .750" on each end, that is the least of my worries after cutting holes in a perfectly good manifold.

[Matrix311]

Wow very impressive. Love the custom work.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[TiGraySpeed6]

wow, shit, you have nice toys. My drill press started crying about half-way thru that post and is now hiding in the closet.

Can't wait to see how this turns out

[Hamilton69]

fuck yeah man that's bad ass, when do they start offering that manifold with bungs for port injection?

[S-hendrix]

Beautiful... just beautiful.

DroidX2-TapTapTaparooo

[IshiKage]

damn

[helmetface]

Hey man saying you've got an awesome set up there is too obvious.


However, in the first shot manifold there are two flared -AN taps, with a vacuum port in the middle. I'm assuming one is for an OCC but the other?

[sleepyspeed6]

This should be marked NSFW, so much porn.

But this is awesome, you know tax returns are right around the corner... This is really tempting

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by Hamilton69 fuck yeah man that's bad ass, when do they start offering that manifold with bungs for port injection?

I do not know when Jim is going to release the PI version manifold. Jim is working on that on his own.

Originally Posted by helmetface Hey man saying you've got an awesome set up there is too obvious. However, in the first shot manifold there are two flared -AN taps, with a vacuum port in the middle. I'm assuming one is for an OCC but the other?

The -6 is the purge valve, and the -8 is the brake booster. The catch can fitting (you cannot see in those pics) is a -10 on the bottom of the plenum.

[helmetface]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I do not know when Jim is going to release the PI version manifold. Jim is working on that on his own. The -6 is the purge valve, and the -8 is the brake booster. The catch can fitting (you cannot see in those pics) is a -10 on the bottom of the plenum.

Oh brake booster..kind of need at huh?

What's the purpose of the purge valve?

[kmac]

I like the setup it's very nice the only thing that might be a problem is the straight runner meeting the head. The head runner is so steep it may cause atomization problem. I hope the don't because its a sick setup.

[cld12pk2go]

As someone who works in manufacturing doing R&D, I can appreciate how even things that look relatively simple can actually have dozens of subtle nuances each of which will kill a project if not properly accounted for...

It looks like you are doing more awesome super anal-retentive R&D here (like all of your work)!

Keep the details coming.

[Snotrocket]

Does this set up require a second in tank fuel pump? Sorry i am new to this auxiliary fuelling business..

[SilverDemon]

Not necessarily. I think I might be going the route of a stand alone cell, but I have not fully committed one way or the other.

EDIT: @Snotrocket;

Originally Posted by Snotrocket Does this set up require a second in tank fuel pump? Sorry i am new to this auxiliary fuelling business..

I misread your post (I was on my phone) sorry. If you are planning on going this far, I would highly recommend going to at least a dual in tank pump setup.

When I first read your post I thought you were asking about a full secondary fuel tank and pump.

[sidekick]

I'm curious, why are you so worried about heat? I know that warping can be a problem when welding, but you really shouldn't have much to worry about with such a large piece. The whole manifold is going to be acting as a giant heat sink, so as long as the welding is done slowly, there shouldn't be a problem. @SilverDemon;

This is awesome though, I can't wait to see the final product

[BlueStreak]

Looking beautiful, Scott.

What does the runner divider look like on the other side of the flange? Seems like the injector is lined up right in the middle. Do you expect any issues with this?

[Tomas]

Scot you fucking beast.

[Lex]

Nice work Scott!

Curious as to why you didn't put the bungs closer to the flange. I would want them as close to the ports in the head as possible to avoid wall wetting and pooling. If the injectors could literally poke out of the manifold towards the head it would be very nice.

Was it a spacing issue?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Lex Nice work Scott! Curious as to why you didn't put the bungs closer to the flange. I would want them as close to the ports in the head as possible to avoid wall wetting and pooling. If the injectors could literally poke out of the manifold towards the head it would be very nice. Was it a spacing issue?

I'd imagine the AUX fueling is only going to be running under high load at WOT, so I don't think either of those will be a problem with all of the air passing through the runners. I believe those are mostly problems at low engine speeds/low air velocity like when you're just driving around town in vacuum. Also, I believe that pooling is really only a problem in wet manifolds(carbureted) and this is a dry manifold design.

On top of that, it will probably mix the fuel more evenly between each port(which may not really matter) where it currently sits.

[Tokay444]

Opposite angles can fuck your couch.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by boost_addict I'm curious, why are you so worried about heat? I know that warping can be a problem when welding, but you really shouldn't have much to worry about with such a large piece. The whole manifold is going to be acting as a giant heat sink, so as long as the welding is done slowly, there shouldn't be a problem. @SilverDemon; This is awesome though, I can't wait to see the final product

I really did not word that part of the post correctly. I meant was I wanted to be able to make sure all the bungs were clocked correctly, and by making sure they were I felt there would be too much heat for the injector to handle, even just tacking the parts together. So instead of using the actual injectors for clocking purposes, I made some stand offs that will act, or hold the bungs and rail in properly in their place.

Originally Posted by BlueStreak Looking beautiful, Scott. What does the runner divider look like on the other side of the flange? Seems like the injector is lined up right in the middle. Do you expect any issues with this?

That was a problem, but not now.

Originally Posted by Lex Nice work Scott! Curious as to why you didn't put the bungs closer to the flange. I would want them as close to the ports in the head as possible to avoid wall wetting and pooling. If the injectors could literally poke out of the manifold towards the head it would be very nice. Was it a spacing issue?

My way of thinking (which may not be the correct way sometimes) was to hold the injectors back away from the head. I believe this will accomplish two things. One, it will let the spray pattern open as far as it can, remember these injectors have 30° cone spray, and the closer they are to the head the harder of a time it may have of opening up to the full cone. In turn possibly not filling both head ports with equal amounts of fuel. Two, the closer the injector is to the head means the fuel will run into the port divider.

I still have some work to do on the port divider. It needs to smoothed back, rounded, and then a rough surface applied to the ports.

But for right now I need to concentrate on getting the welding taken care of, and fabbing up fuel rail brackets. More info to come..

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Hamilton69 fuck yeah man that's bad ass, when do they start offering that manifold with bungs for port injection?

Jim is working on he design right now. it should be done sometime in mid feb

Originally Posted by Lex Nice work Scott! Curious as to why you didn't put the bungs closer to the flange. I would want them as close to the ports in the head as possible to avoid wall wetting and pooling. If the injectors could literally poke out of the manifold towards the head it would be very nice. Was it a spacing issue?

the injectors could never stick out of the IM because they would touch the divider between the ports in the head. the injectors i chose for Jims design atomize as soon as they fuel leaves the tip of the injector so it definitely wont be a problem.

[Ziggo]

Did you consider the split cone design injectors? They are advertised to be specifically for running on heads with 2 intake valves/cylinder?

Lex to your question, unless you cut the head, an injector in the middle, extending past the manifold flange, will hit the divider between the ports in the head.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Did you consider the split cone design injectors? The are advertised to be specifically for running on heads with 2 intake valves/cylinder?

Learn something new everyday.....No, I did not know there was something like that out there.

I can believe that this is leaps and bounds better than running 4 meth nozzles pointed directly at the opposite side of the runner.

[Downmented]

Glad to see you do this. Without people like you, we would still be in the ice ages.

With that said, i know that when you were running n2o, you had a set of criteria that needed to be met in order for spray to occur. Do you plan to have something like that going on here? If so do you mind elaborating on what will need to take place before it will spray.

I guess what im asking is whats going to control the spray characteristics of this fuel rail. lol

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Did you consider the split cone design injectors? They are advertised to be specifically for running on heads with 2 intake valves/cylinder? Lex to your question, unless you cut the head, an injector in the middle, extending past the manifold flange, will hit the divider between the ports in the head.

we (pablo and i) considered this greatly when we were choosing injectors for the JMF manifold. after taking to the guys at bosch motorsports and a few other places we decided against it. each split cone only has a ~5 deg angle of spray which makes it very hard for the fuel to atomize because its coming out of the injector like a faucet. Also, because we are only using this at WOT, theres no real benefit to the split cone vs the single because the air is moving so quickly and the injector is basically wide open the whole time anyway.

the biggest split cone injector from bosch is only ~650cc's which was also a great limiting factor. we could get them made larger but a custom set made them $500 each lol


attached is the datasheet on the 040 injector were going to be using and the 469-01 split cone we considered.


@SPEED6 KILLAH;

[Lex]

Doh, total lapse there on the split ports.

Ziggo's suggestion is interesting for the split port designed injector.



Super, 650cc injectors are good for at least another 350-400whp. That will bring total fueling to the 700-800whp level. This should be enough for most applications no?

[SilverDemon]

in before Ant says "not on e-85"

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Lex Doh, total lapse there on the split ports. Ziggo's suggestion is interesting for the split port designed injector. Super, 650cc injectors are good for at least another 350-400whp. That will bring total fueling to the 700-800whp level. This should be enough for most applications no?

that might be true for a NA setup but for an E85, FI setup, your BSFC is in the .75-.85 range which brings your additional BHP down to like 300 for the PI system alone. My goal is 600 EFFICIENT whp, at which i dont need to be maxing the shit out of my airflow or fuel flow to achieve it. I've always been stretching my parts as far as they can go before i upgrade and im doing it a little differently this time lol.

scotts goals are a little smaller then mine (because, well, he just cant handle anything bigger in that FWD fail-mobile haha) so the injector he chose should work just right for him. He can always bump his base pressure as well if he wants to turn up the wick a little.

[Ziggo]

Soooooo....

Bosch EV14 1150cc 105lb High Impedence- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

If 4 of those monsters cant get the job done I dunno what to tell you. They are "wide, split cone" which means to me that the split is 25*, though like you said each cone is more of a pencil type.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by Downmented Glad to see you do this. Without people like you, we would still be in the ice ages. With that said, i know that when you were running n2o, you had a set of criteria that needed to be met in order for spray to occur. Do you plan to have something like that going on here? If so do you mind elaborating on what will need to take place before it will spray. I guess what im asking is whats going to control the spray characteristics of this fuel rail. lol

Thanks for the kind words!

The N2O is much more volatile, so the need for specific safeties was needed, no mandatory in order to keep everything in check. But, I am not taking this lightly either, things can go bad with AUX fueling as well.

This is going to be controlled by the 4 injector AIC1 split second controller. I honestly was going to run the pro fuel controller from the stand back days, but I think a much simpler controller is the best for this task.

So the PI will ramp up based on MAF, simple and easy.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Soooooo.... Bosch EV14 1150cc 105lb High Impedence- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE If 4 of those monsters cant get the job done I dunno what to tell you. They are "wide, split cone" which means to me that the split is 25*, though like you said each cone is more of a pencil type.

these are NOT spit cone and are NOT certified BOSCH injectors. they are modified and POS.

call up treadstone and ask them about their bosch injectors or anything else they sell. no one there knows shit about their own products, its a joke really. I spoke to bosch motorsports directly and the only available injectors off the shelf in any decent size are the ones posted on that datasheet.

[NJSPEED3]

Very clean Scott, the final stroke to complete your masterpiece.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 Very clean Scott, the final stroke to complete your masterpiece.

i doubt this will be the last one, scotts been stroking it to long to quit now hahahaha

[Tomas]

Among all the failz I barrell through, now and again I have an epic moment of foresight and futuristic thinking. I am ready for this shit. Running knife edged head with the web cams right now. Bring the PI motherfuchers. And I don't care if the injector has split ejaculation or not.

[superskaterxes]

personally i think that the injector should be spraying in the same direction as the airflow for the BEST atomization. But i think because we are only using this at WOT that it wont make a difference if its implemented like scott has done it.

This is the spray pattern of the 040 Bosch injector we chose for Jims manifold. As you can see it comes out as a fine mist and all the fuel is essentially atomized right out of the tip.

Fuel Injector Connection Dynamic flow bench demo - YouTube

Fuel Injector Connection Dynamic flow bench demo - YouTube

[Tokay444]

For all the fuel to be atomized, you wouldn't see anything more than slight wave of distortion of the back of the test bed. Much like hot air rising from ashfault.
The fuel leaving out DI injectors is essentially fully atomized at the pressures we run, and is all but invisible to the naked eye.

[sidekick]

I think you guys may be over-thinking this a little bit. Sure, this set up may not be perfect and the fuel may not be perfectly atomized, but guess what, it will work just fine. Look at all of the big, carbeurated V8s that manage to make huge power by literally just dumping fuel into the intake manifold. You think they give a shit about fuel pooling or atomization? It's really not that big of a deal since we are only using this as AUX fueling. The only problem that I foresee this causing, would be making it hard to tune for the extra fuel. Even if fuel is pooled up on the intake valves, the second they open with 20+ PSI of boost flowing past them, I believe that the fuel will mix with the air pretty quickly. Perfect atomization is really only a big deal in low load/low throttle situations to get a complete burn. At full boost and high load, it really isn't going to make a significant difference in power output and I seriously doubt it will cause issues.

[Ziggo]

Sorry my question set off so much. I never meant to imply that there was a world of difference between the two, just wanted to know if it had been considered.
Like the above, these are really questions mostly for low throttle emissions/MPG and idle quality, none of which matters here.

Zigatapatalka

[SilverDemon]

No need to apologize Zig, your thoughts were the farthest from being the spark...You just mentioned that there were other options for injectors, which should have started a healthy discussion on the pro's and con's of those components.