New Injectors

[06Speed6]

I thought I would post up here that about a month ago I spoke with Alexander Leuze at Bosch Motorsports about making some new injectors and fuel pump for our cars. They offer an injector that should have nearly double the flow of our stock ones, he said:

"For your application and assuming that the flow-rates and spray geometry you are looking for are technically feasible, you would need a custom/sample injector which costs roughly $1,930.63 per piece and you would have to purchase also a one time spray targeting for roughly $9,555.00.

A motorsport HDP5 pump costs about $2,800 for the pump drive and engineering support you would also have to purchase an engineering package of at least 40 hours ($100/hour)."

That is in addition to the welding and port work on our factory head to machine out new injector ports and the custom fuel rail that would have to be designed to feed them.

I also talked to Mazda Motorsports about releasing the injector design for their MZR-R engine, but they basically laughed at me.

I talked to Rod Zervakos at Evolution Motorsports about their upgraded Audi R8 DI high pressure fuel pump which should be capable of flowing >800hp and he said they were still prototyping and it was still a few months out.

I talked to Jim Thompson at KSS Motorsports about the tuning work his company did for the Mazda MZR-R engine and the engineering for the injectors, and he turned me down for info.

I emailed Denso about making a high flow pnp version of our injectors, but I havent heard back yet.

[xcoldricex]

damn all these cockblockers.

[SSinstaller]

Damn.. I hope nothing ever happens to mine... It's starting to look like there may never be any replacements available...

[06Speed6]

Yeah I realllllyyyy have my fingers crossed for denso because I know they have a 1850cc/min injector design. Unfortunately I dont speak or understand Japanese or whatever their web page is written in.

I am going to call the guys at Mazda Motorsports back and see if they can source upgraded injectors through Mazda, the customer service guys there were pretty helpful. The Mazda race program guys werent helpful at all, but they probably have confidentiality agreements.

[Lex]

We have yet to need upgraded on any of the cars I've heard of so far.

[06Speed6]

Its a matter of time.

[ptperformance]

We have prototype +20% injectors being tested right now. They are rewored stockers and have around 15k miles on them. We are waiting to hit the 45k mark and we will be selling them. Need the miles ran on them before we release them.

I have done all sorts of testing of the stock components and the OEM pump has enough room inside of it to support larger internals, we just have not seen a need to go with anything bigger than the S3 pump that we offer. Hell with the new rail valve that we are going to be offering should support 600 WHP out of the OEM injectors with the higher fuel pressures.

[holeinmypocket]

has anyone called "Injector Clinic" to see if they could source some injectors for us?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by ptperformance We have prototype +20% injectors being tested right now. They are rewored stockers and have around 15k miles on them. We are waiting to hit the 45k mark and we will be selling them. Need the miles ran on them before we release them. I have done all sorts of testing of the stock components and the OEM pump has enough room inside of it to support larger internals, we just have not seen a need to go with anything bigger than the S3 pump that we offer. Hell with the new rail valve that we are going to be offering should support 600 WHP out of the OEM injectors with the higher fuel pressures.

Yeah Ron/Whoosh purchased some of those about two years ago, I remember them being very expensive and I would wonder if the oem spray angle is maintained.

Originally Posted by holeinmypocket has anyone called "Injector Clinic" to see if they could source some injectors for us?

I havent

[Fobio]

now I know why we have a Hitachi DI system instead of a Bosch one...

[holeinmypocket]

well someone who is looking for injectors why don't they call "Injector Clinic" they are very helpful

[xcoldricex]

hello injector clinic? i'm experiencing hesitancy and reduced flow from my injectors.

..... you want to stick what, up where?!

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by holeinmypocket has anyone called "Injector Clinic" to see if they could source some injectors for us?

Originally Posted by holeinmypocket well someone who is looking for injectors why don't they call "Injector Clinic" they are very helpful

The problem is that there isnt a source for upgraded injectors or injector parts - no one makes them.

[holeinmypocket]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 The problem is that there isnt a source for upgraded injectors or injector parts - no one makes them.

it doesn't hurt to try to contact them, instead of just doubting...even if they suggest something or give advice it's worth a shot

[06Speed6]

Well I finally nailed Denso down, here is how it went. Note that the newest is on top and the oldest is on the bottom.


RE: Mazda Direct injection injectors‏
From: SOUTHFIELDPR@denso-diam.com
Sent: Mon 7/12/10 6:55 AM
To:

Mr. Brown,
DENSO supplies parts and systems directly to the automakers, and does not provide engineering, development and/or production for consumers.

Thanks



07/09/2010 11:09 AM


To
<southfieldpr@denso-diam.com>


cc

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Subject
RE: Mazda Direct injection injectors

I dont want the OE injector that Denso supplied to Mazda, I dont need to research it, and I have a collection of them and I dont need to obtain any additional units.

Denso Aftermarket doesnt list any high pressure injectors.

I am looking to develop a new injector that is not used by any OE, can I get a sales quote for engineering and development costs.

Thanks


Marcus R. Brown Jr.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copying of this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you feel you should not have received this email, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system.



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Subject: RE: Mazda Direct injection injectors
To:
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:55:56 -0400
From: SOUTHFIELDPR@denso-diam.com

Hello,
Injectors that DENSO supplies to the OE's will have to be researched/obtained through the manufacturers.
Please see DENSO Aftermarket ( DENSO Aftermarket - OEM Quality Aftermarket Auto Parts) for all injectors that DENSO can provide.

Thank you

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
07/08/2010 03:29 PM
To
<southfieldpr@denso-diam.com>

cc

Subject
RE: Mazda Direct injection injectors

Thanks for the fast response,

Within your contractual obligations and non-disclosure agreements with Mazda, I imagine there is there a way to design a new injector. I don't want a repair or replacement part. Additionally I don't need access to their designs or proprietary information.

I believe only the hollow cone spray pattern would be the the same and that may not even be true, and I do not believe that would be covered by any confidentiality agreements since it is public information and it is a industry standard generic spray design that is offered by all high pressure injector manufacturers. I need to change the nozzle to a multi hole design, seal possibly to a diesel style threaded design, and retainer may by scrapped entirely along with raising its operating pressure to ~1800psi which would require different mechanisms and I would like to achieve approximately double flow capacity of Mazda's injector design. So I need essentially a completely different injector with a different form factor with different design goals and parameters.

Thanks for your assistance on this project.

Marcus R. Brown Jr.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copying of this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you feel you should not have received this email, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Mazda Direct injection injectors
To:
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 13:46:50 -0400
From: SOUTHFIELDPR@denso-diam.com

Hello,
DENSO offers some aftermarket parts, and details can be found at DENSO Aftermarket - OEM Quality Aftermarket Auto Parts

Other than that, DENSO is contractually prohibited from dealing directly with consumers. We must instead refer you to your vehicle's manufacturer with any questions you may have concerning your vehicle, repair and replacement parts. Your local Mazda dealership should be able to help you.

Kind regards,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
07/07/2010 09:02 PM
To
<southfieldpr@denso-diam.com>

cc

Subject
Mazda Direct injection injectors

Hello,

My understanding is that Denso manufactured the injector that was used in the Mazdaspeed 3, Mazdaspeed 6, and Mazda CX-7 direct injection engines.

I am looking for information and pricing on a production run of higher flowing injectors that is based losely on that original design.

Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.


Marcus R. Brown Jr.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copying of this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you feel you should not have received this email, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system.
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[xcoldricex]

damn. do all other platforms just take injectors from different cars or have a big company design/produce them?

are there any other DI cars we can steal injectors from?

[SilverDemon]

I don't think you understood the first 3 times.....LOL!!! Damn OE manufacturers.....

[djuosnteisn]

nailed em down? Damn fuck denso now.




Or we just need an OE manufacturer to place the order.....

(my guess is ptp has been working on this for 2 weeks, and their in testing)

[xcoldricex]

YouTube - Total Recall- Two Weeks

YouTube - Total Recall- Two Weeks

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I don't think you understood the first 3 times.....LOL!!! Damn OE manufacturers.....

Yeah I wanted them to actually say fuck you Marcus, we arent doing shit for you.

I already know Hitachi will not do a build run of less than 10,000 units so they are out as well.

[dan7225]

maybe we should ask him again.

[SRTie4k]

What about DeatschWorks or RC Engineering? I know DW modifies OE injectors for more flow and bench tests everything, and I'd imagine RC has the ability to do this type of work.

[whoosh@Realtune]

FYI
David Deatsch of Deatschwerks made the 20% upgrade for me
He said the cost to duplicate them would be over $1000 using your good OEM injectors

enjoy.....
DI FTMFL lol

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by whoosh@Realtune FYI David Deatsch of Deatschwerks made the 20% upgrade for me He said the cost to duplicate them would be over $1000 using your good OEM injectors enjoy..... DI FTMFL lol

I'm glad I bought your set when I had the chance...

[06Speed6]

Ive been talking to Chris @ Deatschwerks for the last few weeks. They have been considering making a higher flowing DI injector but it didnt appear that they were in any hurry to actually do it.

I just shot off another email to a very interesting company. I have a good feeling about this one.

[zx2man]

HUge thanks to the OP....Time to time we get a few really good people who go out of thier way to find new and improved products and or better ways to build em for this platform. A common theme I always see is fuck you,maybe in other words,but pretty much go fuck yourself, and thats a shame. Not many companies like our platform, its like were the Black fucking Plague or something, run everybody the ms3/6 guys are coming!

We should disguise are speeds so they look like subaru's and then when we pull up to a performance company theyll be like.......OH whew!!!.......for second there sir I thought you were driving a mazda!...but thank god its not, Can I suck your cock?

[06Speed6]

Well I got a reply and they only develop completely new DI fuel systems at a estimated cost of $250-500k rofl.

I asked if they were willing to give our their injector suppliers information.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Well I got a reply and they only develop completely new DI fuel systems at a estimated cost of $250-500k rofl. I asked if they were willing to give our their injector suppliers information.

That's only 5k each if we get 100 people... LOL

[SilverDemon]

Hahaha! If I had 5k to drop on injectors, I wouldn't be driving an MZR!!!

[06Speed6]

Yeah well thats also 5k for 100 people for 4 injectors =P

Actually its a completely new fuel system and matching cams and head.

[Lex]

I think at this point, it's cheaper to get an adapter and run PI past a certain load for additional fuel. No need to reinvent an expensive wheel here.

And no OE manufacturers don't give a rat's ass about a dude asking to have some injectors made for this project. There's no return for them there so it makes sense.

[djuosnteisn]

*cough*

looks around real creepily...

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Yeah Ron/Whoosh purchased some of those about two years ago, I remember them being very expensive and I would wonder if the oem spray angle is maintained. I havent

Yes, spray angle is with-in 2% or something like that.

Originally Posted by holeinmypocket it doesn't hurt to try to contact them, instead of just doubting...even if they suggest something or give advice it's worth a shot

I have called everyone an only one has been willing to do anything for us.

Originally Posted by xcoldricex damn. do all other platforms just take injectors from different cars or have a big company design/produce them? are there any other DI cars we can steal injectors from?

Toyota has an injector very similar to ours, no data on it but it was disscussed when we started looking into a higher flowing unit.

Originally Posted by whoosh@Realtune FYI David Deatsch of Deatschwerks made the 20% upgrade for me He said the cost to duplicate them would be over $1000 using your good OEM injectors enjoy..... DI FTMFL lol

Ding, this is who we are using. I have sent them several sets to test and tear down, we are not getting close to a finished unit.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Ive been talking to Chris @ Deatschwerks for the last few weeks. They have been considering making a higher flowing DI injector but it didnt appear that they were in any hurry to actually do it. I just shot off another email to a very interesting company. I have a good feeling about this one.

This is the only company that I can find that will do it for us, they really don't have a huge interest in the DI market but I have been bothering them for months to do something on a larger scale. I have 5 sets of injectors sitting here just waiting for them to give the go ahead on getting them done.

Originally Posted by Lex I think at this point, it's cheaper to get an adapter and run PI past a certain load for additional fuel. No need to reinvent an expensive wheel here. And no OE manufacturers don't give a rat's ass about a dude asking to have some injectors made for this project. There's no return for them there so it makes sense.

I don't think that we can run PI with the current in tank pump. Taking volume away from the HPFP could have very bad or negitive effects, so we would have to figure out a way to put a second pump in tank or make a second fuel system to feed the PI.

I think that some OE manufactures are going to miss the boat if they don't start offering a solution to those that want to run more fuel.

[Lex]

I don't think you understand that OE manufacturers work in very large quantities with very specific requirements and don't care about people that "want more fuel."

[Enki]

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. How difficult would it be to re-certify stock injectors for higher PSI? I.E. instead of 20% more flow, go 20% higher squirt force?

I think we already know the stock Crows' foot is suspect, but how about the rail, injector and pump?

[06Speed6]

I dont know, I am going to tear apart a few injectors and see what the inside looks like

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Enki Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. How difficult would it be to re-certify stock injectors for higher PSI? I.E. instead of 20% more flow, go 20% higher squirt force? I think we already know the stock Crows' foot is suspect, but how about the rail, injector and pump?

If our MFG ever get off there butt's we will have a rail valve that will support 2275 psi of pressure. The additional pressure will move 18 to 20% more fuel based on the increase in pressure (only way to test until we have the actual parts). The rail is good to 2 x the max pressure of the release valve. Injectors do start having issues at 2500 psi (tested with diesel testing equipment). Pump, I think we are going to have everyone covered there with the final pump design... its ability to move fuel is crazy.

[turd burglar]

i hate this car more and more everyday. "oh hey, you got this part workin good i see, well guess what, we just discovered forty eight million and a half more parts that need to be upgraded BUT you will have to have them custom made, because frankly sir, your car licks the balls, gooch and wrinkle grommet all in one swipe. now have a good day spending more money only to find out you still have a miniscule piece of shit thats gonna need fixing"

[06Speed6]

Lmao, this engine isnt that bad... but its close.

[djuosnteisn]

I like our motors



Just hate that fucking stock turbo location hahahahahaha