Koni FSD shock, strut, damper install

[FreeFlyFreak]

UNFORTUNATLY MOST OF THE PICS WERE LOST IN THE INFAMOUS MSF SITE CRASH. THEY ARE GONE FOREVER. WHEN I PULLED THE MS COILS AND INSTALLED THE FSD 4045's I TOOK SOME MORE PICS SO THOSE ARE WHAT YOU SEE HERE.

EDIT: Put at the start so it is not skipped over:
I HIGHLY recommend you cut the Front bump and rear bump stops down when doing this install. (4040's only, Leave the rears alone for the 4045's)

After 18K miles approx 13K on the FSD's the bottom third of the front bump stops were starting to come apart. I ended up cutting them down. The ride over large bumps/dips at speed was much improved after doing this. Pic: of the parts removed:


The rear stop cutting applies ONLY to the 4040's NOT the 4045's
After a while I decided to risk cutting the rear stops also. I trimmed the rear stops a lot.

I removed 2.75" it maybe possible to get away with removing less, but I am not sure how much less.
The rears made an even greater improvement than cutting the fronts.
Absolutely fantastic! you can read details, and see pics of what I did to the rears here:
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...mp-stop-45695/

If you dont want to cut your bumpstops (new rear stops are hard to come by) a MUCH BETTER WAY is to buy some short aftermarket stops like the fatcatmotorsports ones or the ones from Ground Control, and switch them out during install. That way you have the stock stops whole in case you ever want to stock out or change back.
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I installed my Koni FSD shocks/struts today, with the stock springs.

Thanks to Ken @ protege garage for a great deal on the FSD's

Here is my write up:

Disclaimer: If you are not sure what you are doing seek a professional install. If you mess it up following this how to, sorry, you should have paid to have it done.

My Koni FSD's 2100-4040 were drop shipped from Koni and arrived in a damaged box, both rear shocks had punched through the multiple layers of box, approx 1" thick in total. I'm not sure, the shocks must have been held somewhat compressed because they are longer than the box, what ever was holding them came off and bam they punched right through.
Fortunately the threads were undamaged and there appeared to be no damage to the shock so I said Fk'it and pushed ahead with the install.

PICS LOST IN MSF CRASH



Firstly it helps if you donate $$ to www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum and get access to the VIP section which has a manual you can download to help you. It is useful for Torque numbers for reinstall.

FIRST THE FRONT

Loosen the front lug nuts.
I recommend you drive the front wheels onto blocks/wood first so you have enough room to work the jack handle in a minute.

Chock rear wheels, set parking brake.

PIC LOST IN MSF CRASH


Open the hood, draw around the 3 nuts that hold the strut in place with a sharpie/pencil/whatever, so you can install in exactly the same position, there is a lot of potential play in this area.
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Jack up the vehicle using some wood between the jack and the metal cross brace, front jack point is just to the left of the rear engine mount, as you look from the front.

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Install jack stands.

Remove wheels. This is what you will see

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Remove ABS sensor wire.
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Remove Clip that holds brake hose to strut.
Remove brake hose from strut
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Remove stabilizer control link upper nut
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Remove shock absorber lower bolt. I didn't take a pic (sorry). but here is a pic of the bolt reversed for the spread trick.
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At this point the Mazda manual tells to remove the Tie-rod end ball joint and the Front lower arm ball joint, however the other write up's I have read and from talking to other members I found that if you are careful about not forcing anything, these steps are not necessary, and so I skipped those 2 steps.

Remove 3 shock absorber upper bolts around stiffener. (not the center one)
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At this point the strut is free it is up to you to get it out.
I found the best method with the OEM front struts was to use the standard jack from the trunk and jack it out.

Once you have it up a little, you can use the bolt you took out from the lower mount and put it in reverse, use a piece of metal/washer/quarter, as a stop to spread open the mount and make the job easy.
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Once out you can either take your strut to the likes of pep boys and have them switch out the spring to the new strut, or if like me you don't have somewhere nearby or don't have other transportation you can borrow/rent a spring compressor from a similar store and take the spring off yourself.
The spring must be compressed using the spring compressor, follow the directions that came with the compressor, don't cut corners, and don't use a cheap ass spring compressor, unless you want problems/slippage/danger. Power tools are your friend with the compressor, it takes forever to do this with hand tools, I did it once a long time ago when I was young and more stupid. I would not recommend it.
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Once the spring is compressed unlatch the bottom of the dust boot, this will prevent you from opening the upper strut mount bearing, and spilling all the balls everywhere.
Remove the piston rod nut. The nut is 17mm and you will need to hold the center of the piston with an allen wrench, 6mm IIRC (no pics)
Carefully remove the top mount/bearing/bumper/dust boot as one unit.
Here is a comparison of the OEM and Koni FSD struts, Konis have much more travel.


PICS LOST IN MSF CRASH


Place the Koni provided plastic bump ring on the strut, you shouldn't use the yellow stop from the stock struts, you will lose travel and the FSD's will not work properly Ploppity Drown found out the hard way.
Transfer the compressed spring to the new strut. Making sure it remains seated correctly in the perch.
Transfer the top mount/bearing/bumper/dust boot to the new strut.
Align the nubs on the top and bottom of the bearing with the end of the spring and guide on the back side of the strut.
Attach the new piston rod nut.
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IMPORTANT: the new nut for the Koni is 19mm and is way more recessed when installed than the OEM you MUST have a 19mm box end deep offset wrench or similar to torque this up, remember you need to hold the piston steady with an allen wrench as you tighten the nut.

The Koni struts are longer than the OEM and you will wonder how the hell you will make it fit, it can be done.
Use the reverse bolt and washer trick to open the mount, put the top in place, push the bottom mount down and rotate it a quarter turn to the rear (that is the key), and it will slide right in, I recommend some lubricant here, grease, anti seize, whatever to aid the install. Once mostly in, remove the nut/washer trick and use the car jack if needed to jack the mount up all the way onto the base of the strut.

Install from here is the reverse of removal.

Now do the other side.

Reinstall and re torque wheels/lugs.
Remove jack stands and take off jacks

THINGS THAT WENT WRONG, FRONT.

Broke a cheap socket I was using to hold the allen head when trying to take the top nut off. (had to bike to the store to get another)
Didnt have a 19mm box end deep offset wrench to install the new nut. (got everything off with the tools I had, but different size nut and much more recessed meant another store trip for me)
On the second (right side) I had a hell of a time getting the base of the strut back into the mount, The first side went in easy, so I was surprised.
I think the paint was a lot thicker on the right Koni strut. There was a ridge on the first strut that was barely visible on the second due to thicker paint. I struggled for a looong time. Eventually grease, scraping some paint off and cranking the hole open with the bolt/washer as far as I could, got it in.
That created my next problem, I had bent the mount open so much to get the strut in I could not reengage the threads with the bolt (too much offset angle).
That meant yet another bike trip to the store for a C clamp to bend the mount back in to get the bolt to catch.

By the time I finished the fronts, with all those bicycle trips to the store, I was done for the day.


Day 2.

NOW FOR THE REAR......

The rear shocks are a LOT easier.

Chock front wheels, put car in gear.

Loosen the rear Lug Nuts.
Jack the rear of the car up, again some wood between the jack point (you cant miss it, middle of rear crossmember)
Intall jack stands for safety
Remove wheels this is what you will see:
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Remove 2 upper shock mount nuts. 12mm(IIRC)
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Remove lower Bolt 17mm
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The strut will drop down and you will think huh? how the hell do I get this out.
Move the top of the shock toward you a little so it clears the top mounting point.
Compress the strut so it is short enough to get out.
Move the bottom of the strut out of the mount and in toward the center of the car.
The the shock can then be removed.

Remove the top nut (13mm) holding the mount to the strut.
Again you need to hold the piston so it doesnt turn this time a pair of locking pliers will do the job.

PIC LOST IN MSF CRASH

Remove the mount/bumper/dust shield as one unit.

Here is a pic comparing the rear OEM and Koni FSD again the Koni Piston is longer.
I saw no signs of bump stop contact on the rears, it was VERY obvious on the fronts.

PIC LOST IN MSF CRASH

Place the Koni provided plastic ring on the strut.
Place mount/bumper/dust shield on new shock.
Reinstall the 2 koni provided nuts to the top of the shock, holding the piston with locking pliers so it doesn't turn.

Reinstall the strut, again you will need to compress it to get it in.

Reinstall upper 2 nuts,

When reinstalling the lower bolt both the koni instructions and the mazda manual call for the axle to be supported in driving position, I was told I could skip this step but did it anyway for piece of mind. I jacked up the axle into normal driving position before torquing down the lower bolt
Reinstall lower bolt, the Koni bushing is slightly narrower than stock so use a washer if you can find one to fit, I couldn't, so I just tightened it enough to bend the mount and make it snug.

Repeat for other side

Remount wheels, re torque lugs, remove jack stands, let the car down and you are good to go.

THINGS THAT WENT WRONG, REAR:
Forgot to put the plastic ring on the first shock, didn't realize till I was doing the second one , so I had to pull it out again and take it apart to put the ring on.
Put that ring on NOW, not later.

The rears are a lot easier than the front.


INITIAL DRIVING IMPRESSIONS:

After a short drive these are my initial impressions.

The car is a lot smoother over the speed bumps in my neighborhood.
The fronts no longer hit the bump stops going over the speed bumps, I used to feel them bottom out everytime. (when I took the OEM fronts apart it was obvious there had been quite a bit of contact with the bumpers and the top of the strut)
There is a large reduction in road noise, from surface noise, to cracks, expansion joints, and reflectors. It is more of a thunk than a BAM.
The ride is definitely smoother all around, in town and on highway.

The bouncing is mostly cured, but not 100% unfortunately.
There are still some situations where I still get some rock and roll, but it is tamed, less bounce, and over in one cycle instead of repeated 2 or 3 times..

I would say 75% of the bouncing is gone completely, the worst 25% that remains is tamed, in that it has less amplitude. Im guessing 40% reduced amplitude (60% remains), and the big improvement is, it is over in one cycle, instead of being repeated 2 or 3 times.
There may be a small amount of added front end movement at lower speeds around town, accelerating/braking but I am not 100% sure, could be my imagination.

I certainly felt more relaxed pushing it at speed in corners. The edgy unstable feeling was gone.

Summary, it is not as good as I had hoped, but it is way better than stock.

Maybe Stretch and CP-e can cure the remaining 25%, I hope so, but I will be waiting to hear positive user impressions before ripping those front struts out again.

But I want to clarify something, having read what I just wrote.
If I was still stock and had just driven a car with the FSD's on, I am not sure I would rush out and buy them.

If that makes sense.

I am glad I have them, because they are much better than stock, but they don't entirely cure the problem that I was trying to cure.
The bouncy/floaty at high speed, it is much better but not altogether gone.
The FSD's may be part of the solution, but they are not a total solution.

Thanks to MAZDASTEVE3 for his assistance and advice for the install, and thanks also to SACRILICIOUS for his Cobb spring install write up on 24/7. Both those resources saved me much headache.

UPDATE:
Went for a longer test drive today, just driving and getting a feel for the Konis.

The route I took was this:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sadd...2&ie=UTF8&z=10

My impression after my longer drive today is this:
I would consider this setup perfect except for one thing, there are still some road surfaces that bother the car.
I felt it yesterday but couldn't quite put my finger on it, or describe it.
Hard to describe in words a road surface, the problem surface it is an undulating surface, where some parts of the road have sunk a little, not much, but enough. You often get areas that are like this in norcal, they may last a mile or so. It creates what I call jostle, not a dangerous or unsettling movement, but the kind of thing that could make someone car sick.
Where too much movement is transmitted to the cabin.
It is often mostly side to side, and I am not sure it can be removed, maybe the sway bars are to blame, and I would rather not change those and lose cornering.
The stock car had the same problem, but in a different way, the stock jostle was more harsh, and abrupt, the Koni Jostle feels like the same amplitude but smoother, it still would make you car sick, it just wouldn't beat you up while doing it (it would only shake you up).

I still get the odd bounce over a deep depression, but it is much more refined and the scary part is removed.
I am not a road racer.... well sometimes..... but today I hit speeds I have never dared hit before, because the unpredictability, the scary part was gone.
That was the main thing for me, the car scared me at times, that is gone and I am glad.

Having said that I wish the jostle was gone, I thought I would point out the good things, as they do far out way the bad bits that are left:
They are a reasonably priced solution @ 650 (set of 4) from Protege Garage.
They make the ride around town more comfortable.
They get rid of a lot of road noise, I always blamed the tires, but I think half the noise was the shocks transmitting more noise/vibes to the body.
They tamed the dangerous amplified bounces, into just one mild dampened bounce.
They got rid of most (75%) of the other bounces.
They made the car feel MUCH better at high speed. 80-140. I would say the car now feels like it is going 40 mph slower than it used to, so at 120 with the FSD's it feels like it used to at 80 on the OEM's.

I actually notice a HUGE difference backing out of my driveway, it slopes down to the road, drops off about a half inch to the concrete gutter and then jumps up a half inch to the road surface which slopes up toward the center. It used to be, anything faster than a slow crawl would give an abrupt jolt followed by a lot of oscillation, now I back out at a normal pace, nothing more than a dull thud sound, no jolt, no jive. It behaves like any other "normal" car.

All I am left with that I dont like is the remaining 25% tamed bounce, and the jostle which feels the same amount as stock but smoother.
Not perfect, but waaay better than stock.

I would like to go with another local, stock suspension, MS3 and do back to back runs on the same road at the same speed, hoping I can get someone else involved in norcal with an iphone or another accelerometer recording product for an unbiased comparo.
Anyone local to Santa Cruz/San Jose have something with an accelerometer that can record/measure, the bumps/jolts?

[Haltech]

Good write man!

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Haltech Good write man!

Not as good as yours...... but hey Im not having free stuff show up for the purposes of writing up...

I do like to give back to the community though, when I can.

By the way the FSD's were purchased from Protege Garage, I did get a deal from Ken.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Updated post with more driving impressions.

[FreeFlyFreak]

I am hoping to go with another local, stock suspension, MS3 and do back to back runs on the same road at the same speed, hoping I can get someone else involved in norcal with an iphone or another accelerometer recording product for an unbiased comparo.
Anyone local to Santa Cruz/San Jose have something with an accelerometer that can record/measure, the bumps/jolts?

[MidwestSpeed3]

Great write up. Have you thought about adding some springs to your setup? Just a thought, but it might help the other minor issues you are having.

Do you (or anyone else) know how well these would match up with Cobb Springs?

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by MidwestSpeed3 Great write up. Have you thought about adding some springs to your setup? Just a thought, but it might help the other minor issues you are having. Do you (or anyone else) know how well these would match up with Cobb Springs?

I have thought about it a lot.
I am waiting for the offering in development from Stretch/CP-e.
Should be released soon, last I heard was "hopefully before Christmas"
I was actually waiting for the whole package he has in development, but considered this car suspension dangerous and couldnt wait any longer.
I decided to do something to it, before it did something to me.

All I know is you need to keep FSD's off the bumpstops, which is OK with me, I dont want lowering anyway.
If Stretch/CPE springs are no lower in the rear (could even be higher for me), and lower the front to level the car, and are tested and approved by Stretch for the FSD, I will try them.
But not until I get some good user reviews first.
I did my experimenting for the cause, I am not ripping that stuff out again unless it is the perfect fix, it is good enough for me for now.

I personally would not buy the cobb springs, JMO from what I have read.

EDITED RIDE HEIGHT, THE FRONT HAS SETTLED A LITTLE>
Oh one last thing about the ride height, the FSD's raise the ride height in the front approx 0.5cm, rear ride height is approx the same... maybe a hair lower than stock. There is currently a difference of approx 1.75-2cm (0.7-0.8") between front and rear.

I say approx. because there is always a difference of 0.5cm in side to side measurement on the rear with my car. I think I may have a weak spring on the left rear. Maybe it was chained down hard on that side on the boat from Japan. I dont know I only noticed it when I measured before installing the FSD's, figured it would go away after install, it didnt. I measured underneath too, spring perch to frame, same thing, 1/2cm diff

[MazdaSteve3]

Great write up! I appreciate the effort that goes into it.

From your driving impressions, sounds like you like the FSDs with stock springs are better than I liked the yellows with stock springs. I think the stock springs are too weak to accommodate the increase in damping that we need to fully get things under control.

The reduction in road noise is very interesting. I didn't notice that with the yellows. I did notice a large reduction in the clunks that had bothered me since the car was new.

Good to see you had some power tools. They make the job much faster, especially with all the long threads typical on suspension parts. I have a cordless impact driver (lighter duty version of an impact wrench) that is great. Maybe 50 ft/lbs. max, so it won't break the big bolts loose, but runs them in and out quickly and can also fully tighten the smaller fasteners without fear of stripping. I have an air compressor and tools, but find it obnoxious and rarely use it.

"Remove 2 upper shock mount nuts. 10mm(IIRC)"
I think they are 13mm.

I would guess that a 5mm difference in ride height is within spec. Do you know what the specs are? Could be a short spring, could also be a misrotation of the rubber spring pad at the top of the spring on the opposite side.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by MazdaSteve3 Great write up! I appreciate the effort that goes into it. "Remove 2 upper shock mount nuts. 10mm(IIRC)" I think they are 13mm. I would guess that a 5mm difference in ride height is within spec. Do you know what the specs are? Could be a short spring, could also be a misrotation of the rubber spring pad at the top of the spring on the opposite side.

Maybe 13mm... I didn't write it down and realized when writing it up it was a big mistake, I wanted to do a required tools list but couldn't. So just made note of the unusual ones, and ones I could recall for sure. The nut on the top of the rear strut piston was 13mm for sure.

Don't know the tolerances of the side to side diff.... I didn't know there was a rubber spring pad in the top I'll have to take a look. I know the rear springs are seated correctly on the bottom spring perch.

Originally Posted by MazdaSteve3 Good to see you had some power tools. They make the job much faster, especially with all the long threads typical on suspension parts. I have a cordless impact driver (lighter duty version of an impact wrench) that is great. Maybe 50 ft/lbs. max, so it won't break the big bolts loose, but runs them in and out quickly and can also fully tighten the smaller fasteners without fear of stripping.

Yeah me too, cordless drill with attachment and cordless impact driver, both battery's were dead by the time I finished the fronts.
I would not advise anybody attempt to use spring compressors with out some kind of power tool. I did it once probably 20 years ago..... NEVER again.

The weird thing is, there are times, driving around town, where you would swear they would be too soft, but it is always when you need them to be soft.
Then when I push them, they lose that "too soft" feeling. I am sure they are softer than the yellows, but I lean more slightly more toward comfort than performance anyway, which is why I picked the FSD over the yellows.

[MazdaSteve3]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak The weird thing is, there are times, driving around town, where you would swear they would be too soft, but it is always when you need them to be soft. Then when I push them, they lose that "too soft" feeling. I am sure they are softer than the yellows, but I lean more slightly more toward comfort than performance anyway, which is why I picked the FSD over the yellows.

That's exactly how they are supposed to behave, according to Koni. Good to hear that they work.

[mlassek]

from what i know the fsd's are not designed for the speed3. but im glad they are treating you well. on the other hand sorry to hear you are not 100% satisfied.

you and i share the same dislikes for the stock ms3 suspension it seems
and for others wondering what the cure all fix is....MS3 mazdaspeed coilovers.
i installed them on saturday. everything is perfect. ride is not harsh at all. more responsive steering and handling and bounce is totally gone. weight transfer on acceleration is much more stable and flat which also helps tons with wheel spin and hop. (currently on outta the box settings for winter)

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by mlassek from what i know the fsd's are not designed for the speed3.

Correct they were originally designed for the mZ3, however!
There is not as much weight difference as you might think, only 200 lbs IIRC

I was waiting for Strech/CPE's strut spring combo, but AFAIAC these stock struts are dangerous on the roads that I drive and I coudnt live with them any longer.

The Ms coilovers were out for me as you have to drill out the rear mount which makes going back to a stock setup very difficult.

Steve

[enshadowed]

very good write up ,will be using it real soon!

[Ploppity Drown]

FFF, how are those FSD's holding up? They standing up to the bumpy Norcal roads alright?

And have you considered sticking with the stock springs up front, but installing slightly stiffer springs in the rear? I think it might help with the excess motions front-to-back over uneven pavement (aka "floatiness") which, according to Stretch's analysis, is mainly due to the rear spring frequency being lower than the front spring frequency. A while back I did some math and it seemed like running the Cobb rears with the stock fronts would closely approximate the Front/Rear spring frequency ratio that Stretch had recommended. And when I had them on my car they only lowered the rear by 1/8"--no worries about bumpstop contact.

Stretch said he wanted Front/Rear frequencies of 1.7 Hz/1.8 Hz (1.7/1.8 = 0.944), which when ideally damped (for flat ride quality) would yield damped frequencies of 1.5/1.7.

With stock front springs and Cobb rears you'd have 1.5 Hz/1.625 Hz. I dug up these numbers on the forums. 1.5/1.625 = 0.923. Pretty darn close.

Now where I get lost is with those magical dampers. First of all, I don't know whether they even exist. It seems like at some point Stretch just settled for using the Koni Yellows, whether or not they have the proper high-speed/low-speed bump/rebound damping rates to achieve flat ride quality with his desired spring frequencies. Mystery #2 is whether those same dampers would be properly matched for the softer Stock/Cobb setup I've proposed. Perhaps the FSD's would be a better match. Maybe Yellows in the front, FSDs in the rear. I don't have access to the detailed damping rates from Koni, and even if I did I probably wouldn't know what to do with them. Where's Stretch when you need him!?

I actually drove around for a while on stock fronts/Cobb rears and it wasn't half bad. I wasn't thinking critically about it at the time--I was just waiting until I had some garage time to swap the stockers back in. The shortcomings of the stock dampers overshadowed any appreciation for the spring combo. And that's more or less where I stand today... my dampers are bad and getting worse, Mazda won't replace them, and my Cobb springs are sitting in the box.

This started out as a question for you about your suspension and turned into me rambling about my own plight. Excuse my wandering mind... but, yeah, you still liking those FSD's?

[stretch]

The Koni's do not have more travel, at least not by as much as you think. At first it would appear that they have much more droop travel than stock. But what you really see is the stock strut not expanded all the way because of a soft droop limiter in the stock struts. Think of it as a bump stop, except it's for rebound. If you could pull on the strut hard enough, you'd see that there is indeed more travel there.

However, it makes little difference. The car already has tons of droop travel, and honestly, having too much makes the installation (more accurately, the design of) firmer springs more difficult. Excess droop forces the use of progressive spring rates, which in lengthens the solid length of the spring. But that's really nothing ya'll need to worry about, unless you're designing springs (but this is a lesson MANY aftermarket spring manufacturers haven't learned). Basically, you can't always make stiff springs to properly utilize lots of travel.

Anyway, what you want is more BUMP travel, but the problem in doing this is that the springs often don't have any travel left in them either. Again, it's that dang spring travel problem.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown FFF, how are those FSD's holding up? They standing up to the bumpy Norcal roads alright?

I actually like the FSD's more now than when I first put them on.
You couldnt pay me to go back to the stock struts.
The are holding up fine as far as I can tell.
I have nothing other than the stockers to compare them to so I cant say they are better, worse or the same as Koni yellows or Bilsteins. All I can say is that they are waaaaaay better than stock and I would definitely do it again. They are so much nicer to drive than the stockers. But I will qualify that by saying I lean toward comfort, I want as much performance as I can get without sacrificing comfort. The FSD's are so much more comfortable than stock there is no comparison. It is like a different car, and yet the performance is still there. I will know better how the performance compares when I go to the track again so I can compare exactly, but those are my impressions right now.

I wont be driving on them much for the next 2 months as I am away, but still looking forward to springs that Stretch may develop.
I cannot accept any lowering though.

Any word Stretch?
I see a post here but no update in the other thread.

[kwsmithphoto]

Just opened the box on my set and quickly spotted the really long shaft that you did. Although my delivery package wasn't punctured, just dimpled a bit.

They aren't on the car yet but it makes me wonder. I can only assume that Koni did some internal tricks so the shock body can swallow a really long shaft. OK, that sounded weird. Sorry.

What's odd is that in another thread, a Koni guy warned about lowered right heights beyond stock and factory lowered springs, but never mentioned shaft length, just advised to keep the ride height well above the bump stops. Of course, but combining a MZ3 specific shock with slightly lower and much stiffer MS3 stock springs, not to mention even lower ProKit's, seems a bit contradictory to me. It's hard to imagine that a non-adjustable damper can work with so many different spring rates.

My guess, and it is just that, is that the longer travel FSD's have internals that won't demolish themselves under full compression, despite the longer shaft length. I'm a little concerned about running dampers that were intended for the longer, softer springs of the MZ3, but your road tests have put me to rest.

Suspension travel on a road car is your friend. Apparently, just judging by your comments and some others, that it sounds like they still work well with the MS3 springs, even though though it should be a mis-match, given the MS3's much higher spring rates.

The FSD tech isn't really self adjusting, it's just a dual-circuit damper with a patented twist, so in theory, the rebound characteristics shouldn't match the increased spring rates of the OEM MS3 springs.

But that's just theory, anecdotal experience is a worth a lot more to me; if they work better with the MS3 OEM springs than the stocker's do, I'm not going to over-analyze why. My guess is that given their package deal with Eibach, they are probably a bit over damped for stock MZ3 springs, match pretty well with MZ3 ProKits, but might still be slightly under-damped for MS3 spring rates.

Anyway, I don't want to armchair quarterback anything, I'm just wondering how a non-adjustable damper can seemingly work well with such a wide variety of spring rates, spring types (progressive and linear), and ride heights.

Ah well, I'm just speculating. My FSD's are in the trunk awaiting a Tuesday installation, so I'll have my own impressions after that. But yours are very encouraging, we're both trying to accomplish exactly the same thing - reducing the crazy mad bounce the stocker's allow, while preserving or even improving daily driver ride quality. Cool.

[bani]

Originally Posted by kwsmithphoto My guess is that given their package deal with Eibach, they are probably a bit over damped for stock MZ3 springs, match pretty well with MZ3 ProKits, but might still be slightly under-damped for MS3 spring rates.

you could always ask koni.

just a thought.

[kwsmithphoto]

Originally Posted by stretch The Koni's do not have more travel, at least not by as much as you think. At first it would appear that they have much more droop travel than stock. But what you really see is the stock strut not expanded all the way because of a soft droop limiter in the stock struts. Think of it as a bump stop, except it's for rebound. If you could pull on the strut hard enough, you'd see that there is indeed more travel there. However, it makes little difference. The car already has tons of droop travel, and honestly, having too much makes the installation (more accurately, the design of) firmer springs more difficult. Excess droop forces the use of progressive spring rates, which in lengthens the solid length of the spring. But that's really nothing ya'll need to worry about, unless you're designing springs (but this is a lesson MANY aftermarket spring manufacturers haven't learned). Basically, you can't always make stiff springs to properly utilize lots of travel. Anyway, what you want is more BUMP travel, but the problem in doing this is that the springs often don't have any travel left in them either. Again, it's that dang spring travel problem.

Back in the day, I'm talking late 70's cars, we had to drill holes and use wire to strap the coils ends into their seats so they wouldn't come loose when the suspension unloaded. Not much need for that anymore, thank goodness.

Droop travel, as you call it, is a good thing though. When the car gets light is exactly when you really want at least some degree of tire contact on the ground! Ask anyone with off-road suspension experience. What's great about the FSD valve is that it knows when it suddenly unloads and opens up the rebound valve to let the wheel drop down into the bump, maintaining some contact with the surface, so you still have some traction. Unless the spring prevents it, of course. I speak this as someone who has had all 4 wheels off the tarmac for no apparent reason at all, with the sucky stock setup.

BTW, how is your spring design project going, Stretch?

you could always ask koni.

I talked to their "tech support" on Tuesday. They're even less useful than the pictogram Ikea instructions that came in the box.

[kwsmithphoto]

Installation update:

Definitely get a cone shaped wire brush drill bit and strip the coating where it mounts in the spindle. Use some anti-seize in the spindle before you install them, and they'll drop right in. This will make your install much easier, the strut practically just drops right into the spindle.

Inevitably, there will be some exposed metal on the strut above the spindle. Paint some clear coat on there. I didn't have any handy but I'm gonna pick some up soon and cover it up to protect the strut housing from rust.

Also, I wouldn't use the reverse bolt trick, the better way is to tap a metal wedge tool into the spindle opening as you're working the strut down. Be careful with that, you don't want to open it up any more than you need to, but the reverse bolt trick has been known to strip the threads in the spindle.

And if I knew it at the time, I would have definitely used some stainless steel fender washers for the lower rear damper mount. Mine were fine for 50 miles but the right side started to rattle, so I had to over-torque the bolt to make it right. It works, but is not the best solution. Washers are.

Oh, and BTW, I blew the LF strut mount somewhere along the say. My guess is that it was a marginal part to begin with (the bearing is plastic!), and between the installation wrangling, and a few hundred miles of me pounding on them, enough to slip the top mount out of it's original location, it failed. The guy at the parts counter said their own shop replaces 2-3 sets of them a week on 3's, plus at least that many more sent out to indy shops. You can buy the bearing and the top plate separately, but I was told their techs always change both so I did. Anyway, point being, if you get some clunks or rattle from the front end after doing the job, that's what you need to replace. The bearing is a definite weak point in the design.

Ok, all that said, these shocks are the bomb! It really drives like a much better car now! It's just as comfortable if not more so, but can eat up a bumpy back road more quickly and safely now. I'm sore at Koni for their fitment issues, but as far as function goes, the FSD valve does exactly what it says it does. It's sticks much better to rough pavement, never leaps or lunges like the OEM dampers do, and is definitely faster over any surface.

So much faster that the tires can't keep up. I was never all that happy with them but they did the job. The chassis is so much faster now though that an upgrade is in order.

Ha ha, which will probably mean I wind up wanting stiffer sway bars after that! This mod thing just never ends, does it?

Anyway, I'm happier with them than FreeFly is, maybe because my expectations were lower after reading his review, I dunno. There is no magic in a shock absorber (but GM's electro-magnetic's come pretty close - just ask Mercedes and others, who license the design from them). I think that most of the "problems" are related to the basic suspension design, which is good, but not ideal for high performance. F/M/V had a lot of things to juggle when they designed the C1 platform, which at it's core, was intended to underpin a small, FWD family car, primarily for the European and Japanese markets. It is not a sports car, they had packaging and cost issues to contend with that guaranteed some compromises.

That said, if a simple damper change can make the car work so much better, imagine what a full blow performance setup can do. Which doesn't interest me since this is my daily driver and work car, and just improving on a good thing without hosing ride comfort or utility was my #1 priority. IMHO, the FSD's have gotten me there and I am very happy with them.

Will I go further? We'll see after the tire change!

[FreeFlyFreak]

Glad you like them. Your tips are definitely correct and will help anyone trying this themselves.

I like the FSD's more everyday.

My review was as unbiased as I could make it, However I definitely erred on the side of caution.
I was very cognizant that I could talk the FSD's up and have someone buy them and be disappointed, so I tried to give both the good and the bad.
Also I had nothing else to compare them to, I would love to ride back to back in some other MS3's with stock struts, FSD's, yellows, bilstiens, and coilovers and be able to compare and contrast each.

Initially I was happy, but not ecstatic As time has gone by either the FSD's have improved with break-in, or I am more used to them. Either way I would recommend them highly, to anyone who wants a comfortable daily driving MS3. I dont think I could have done better with any other product for the price.
Im hoping to get to Laguna Seca soon and see if they handle better than stock at the limit, their behavior on the road sure points to it.

[speed3]

I am in the same position. I need new shocks and struts soon. I also live in san jose. My car lifted going 65mph on 87N right before 280. Holy crap it was scary. I don't want to drive the car anymore. I really hate it. Over bumps it is noisy, Hitting the bump stop even on just little bumps. Car pulls to left and right on uneven road, It is very difficult to drive the car at higher speed. Right now i am short on cash so can't do anything. As soon as i get some extra spending money i am buying the Mazdaspeed coils. I really don't want coils because of the stiffer ride, But they are valved and designed for the speed3.. Gotta save $2000 for the coil and camber kit.

I just hate when the car goes right and left on uneven road. Hopefully the car drives like my mothers 2007 BMW 530i after the Mazdaspeed coil install.

[kwsmithphoto]

If your car is tracking badly like you say, under neutral throttle or coasting, you probably have an alignment and/or tire issue. It sounds like you're describing bump steer, which my car doesn't really have, unless I'm hard on the throttle in low gears. Which is just torque steer, amplified by dips or weird road camber changes.

It's the essence of FWD, tweaking the suspension tuning isn't going to change that very much. Momma's BMW is rear wheel drive, ya know. Torque steer isn't an issue, because the power is going to the rear axle, not the front axle.

[Ploppity Drown]

To FreeFlyFreak and kwsmithphoto:

When you guys installed your FSDs, did you notice whether the strut cylinder was completely bottomed-out in the spindle? By completely, I mean to the same extent the stock strut was originally.

I'm wondering why the FSDs would raise the ride height as in your installations... could it be that the thick gold paint is preventing the strut cylinder from bottoming out in the spindle and therefore raising the height of the lower spring perch?

It's hard to tell from the pics, but it could just be that the FSDs have a greater length from bottom to lower spring perch.



Just eyeballing your photo, the bottom-to-lower-spring-perch lengths looks about equal, if not a little shorter on the Konis. Of course this is by no means an accurate measure.

Perhaps it's because of the stronger droop limiter on the Koni's, as Stretch pointed out.

Had you guys measured your ride height front vs. rear on the stock dampers? Mine were already off by about 0.5" when the car was new:

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown To FreeFlyFreak and kwsmithphoto: When you guys installed your FSDs, did you notice whether the strut cylinder was completely bottomed-out in the spindle? By completely, I mean to the same extent the stock strut was originally. I'm wondering why the FSDs would raise the ride height as in your installations... could it be that the thick gold paint is preventing the strut cylinder from bottoming out in the spindle and therefore raising the height of the lower spring perch? It's hard to tell from the pics, but it could just be that the FSDs have a greater length from bottom to lower spring perch. Just eyeballing your photo, the bottom-to-lower-spring-perch lengths looks about equal, if not a little shorter on the Konis. Of course this is by no means an accurate measure. Perhaps it's because of the stronger droop limiter on the Koni's, as Stretch pointed out. Had you guys measured your ride height front vs. rear on the stock dampers? Mine were already off by about 0.5" when the car was new

I measured the stocks and Konis by standing them up next to each other before I took that photo, the perchs looked to be exactly the same height, from the base of the strut. IIRC I put them side by side and rotated them, the perches coiled up together the same.
Both struts were fully seated, I know because it took me forever to get the right one to seat correctly because of a thicker paint.
I didnt however check to see that the distance between the perch and where it seats was the same. Could be that the stockers seat 5mm lower in the spindle than the Konis....?

My fronts were identical ride height side to side before and after the switch. The rears however were IIRC, 9mm different, left side lower, both with the stock dampers and with the Konis.

[Ploppity Drown]

It seemed an unlikely explanation to me, anyway.

I remember during reassembly it being fairly obvious when the strut was fully seated. I mean, the spindle bolt won't go through until it's fully seated, right? I also remember being able to feel the bottom of the strut sticking out a little below the spindle. And even if you hadn't fully seated it the spindle before you torqued the bolt, I'm sure after the first test drive it would be forced into place--thick coat of paint or not.

If you measured the bottom-to-perch lengths to be identical between stock and FSD, and fully seated the struts in the spindles, I can't imagine the perches sitting any higher than stock. It must be something to do with the internals of the strut.

I just measured my wheel gaps again so I have a new baseline. And it's sitting a little higher than it was a year ago.. not sure why..

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown I just measured my wheel gaps again so I have a new baseline. And it's sitting a little higher than it was a year ago.. not sure why..

Ill see if I can find my baselines, I threw the paper away but I believe they may be in some PM history I have.
As a note I measured mine differently, top of center cap to fender. That removes any change due to tire wear, tire change, or inflation....
Maybe that is why your wheel gap has grown.... the tires got worn down.

EDIT:
Found it in PM's:
These are measurements immediately before and after install, The fronts did settle a little after a week, to about a 5mm increase over stock rather than the 9 and 7mm I show below. So basically I got after settling +5mm front -5mm rear.

"Initial measurements before and after install (top of center cap to fender, measured twice OEM and once with Konis in cm)
.....O.....O.....K....Av Diff
FR 34.5 34.5 35.4 +9mm
FL 34.7 34.7 35.4 +7mm
RR 34.4 33.7 33.4 -6mm
RL 33.0 33.0 32.5 -5mm

The one constant is the rear left is always way less than the RR. Cant be the shock I just changed it, must be something else, the spring is seated right, I just looked.
Wonder if it was tied down too tight on the left rear on the boat from japan."

[Ploppity Drown]

Did the FSDs come with new top nuts for the struts? I recall that part being highlighted for replacement in the FSM.. I think it's got some nylon locking threads somewhere.

If not I'll see if I can get them from a dealer. My FSD's just arrived!

I'll be sure to take measurements like yours before I get started.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown Did the FSDs come with new top nuts for the struts? I recall that part being highlighted for replacement in the FSM.. I think it's got some nylon locking threads somewhere. If not I'll see if I can get them from a dealer. My FSD's just arrived! I'll be sure to take measurements like yours before I get started.

I think I remember that new top nuts were included, for front and rear.
You need 19mm box end deep offset wrench to tighten them while holding the allen key in the center, because the nut ends up being more recessed with the Konis, so you cant quite get it with a regular wrench.
Let us know how the install goes and how you like them.
As a side note mine definitely improved over the first couple thousand miles or so after install. Not sure if they break in or the front springs have to reseat or something after being transferred.
You keeping the stock springs on too?

[Ploppity Drown]

Thanks for the tip.

Yeah I'm using the stock springs. I still have my Cobb springs, and am considering swapping the Cobb rears in later on, but we'll see how this setup feels. The Cobb rears didn't have any measurable drop while I was running them, so I figure they won't hurt the FSDs.

[Crossbow]

I just hate when the car goes right and left on uneven road.

Keep in mind that if you are lightly holding the wheel, and it tracks left or right depending on the road you are on, this is called "tramlining" and is a byproduct of aggressive sticky rubber.

Tramlining gets worse if you have even wider tires/wheels.

Tramlining is the tendency of a vehicle's wheels to follow the contours in the surface upon which it runs. The term comes from the tendency of a car's wheels to follow the normally recessed rails of street trams, without driver input in the same way that the train does. Tramlining can usually be blamed on tires, and its incidence depends greatly on the model of tire and its state of wear. Although not normally dangerous, at very high speeds it can become a source of instability.

Tramlining can be lessoned by modifying your alignment to enhance stability. But if you're running around on something like 245 RT615's...don't complain if the car is tracking left and right..those things are just sticking right to the road surface and following it!

[kwsmithphoto]

When you guys installed your FSDs, did you notice whether the strut cylinder was completely bottomed-out in the spindle? By completely, I mean to the same extent the stock strut was originally.

Yes, it sure seemed that way. There's a metal tab on the inside (sway bar mount? I forgot) that bottoms out on the spindle, plus there's a slight ridge in the strut body that should line up with the top of the spindle. On my car, the right side was flush but the left side was about 1mm high yet the tab had bottomed out so there wasn't much we could do about it except grind the tab down. We decided against it.

I'm wondering why the FSDs would raise the ride height as in your installations... could it be that the thick gold paint is preventing the strut cylinder from bottoming out in the spindle and therefore raising the height of the lower spring perch?

That was my first thought, so we (meaning Alien3T) pulled the fronts, ground the paint off, coated the bare metal with anti-seize, and re-installed. It made a popping/clunking noise from the first attempt go away, but didn't seem to affect the ride height. It also made the struts go in much easier and faster.

If you measured the bottom-to-perch lengths to be identical between stock and FSD, and fully seated the struts in the spindles, I can't imagine the perches sitting any higher than stock. It must be something to do with the internals of the strut.

We didn't measure anything, I'm just going by the visual result. Why the front looked lifted is a mystery, if the perches are in the same place as the OEM, and they're seated in the knuckle properly, which they are (with one irrelevant exception). Could it be the internals? Possibly, but they aren't gas pressurized. As you can see in that photo though, the damper shaft is quite a bit longer, which probably has something to do with it.

The front struts use two nuts, vs. the OEM single nut. The bottom nut attaches the damper shaft to the strut mount, the top nut locks it down. The offset box wrench FF mentioned is pretty much mandatory. The rear shocks also come with a different lock nut for the top mount.

Had you guys measured your ride height front vs. rear on the stock dampers? Mine were already off by about 0.5" when the car was new:

If you're just measuring tire gap, here's your answer - the front wheel well opening is a different shape then the rears, with more gap over the tires.

I just discovered something I hadn't realized before - my car sits perfectly level now! I'm used to seeing my car parked in front of my house, on a lumpy street and crumbling curbs and it still looked nose high, so I just drove around the corner to a new development where they laid down some fresh, flat concrete, and took a pic:



As you can see there's a bit more air over the front tires, but the chassis is level, which is all that really matters. My lumpy street and the bigger front wheel well was throwing an optical illusion at me. I knew it had settled, just didn't realize it was level until now! I'll take another look at it on a different surface in different light, but it sure looks right in this image.

[kwsmithphoto]

Keep in mind that if you are lightly holding the wheel, and it tracks left or right depending on the road you are on, this is called "tramlining" and is a byproduct of aggressive sticky rubber. Tramlining gets worse if you have even wider tires/wheels.

In my experience, it's mostly a product of tire design. I had the older S-02 Pole Positions on my last car and after about 10K they started tramlining like crazy. I took it in for an alignment and rotation. The alignment was fine, no adjustments needed. In time, the problem got worse, so I changed tire types, to the Goodyear GS-D3's.

Problem solved and never came back. BTW, both tires were 225/50's on a car that came with 215/55's, and they had a whole lot more grip than stock, so I don't think there's much of a correlation there. The only other time I've ever had a problem was with Dunlop SP8000's on the car before that, they followed every ripple in the road like a hound dog. Again, the alignment was good, and the problem went away after changing the tires.

Changing the offset of a wheel though, that can cause tramlining in a big way, because you're throwing off the OEM steering geometry.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by kwsmithphoto As you can see there's a bit more air over the front tires, but the chassis is level, which is all that really matters. My lumpy street and the bigger front wheel well was throwing an optical illusion at me. I knew it had settled, just didn't realize it was level until now! I'll take another look at it on a different surface in different light, but it sure looks right in this image.

Hmmm, Ill have to check that out on mine.

[kwsmithphoto]

I just compared the wheel arches in Photoshop. The rears are a semicircle but the fronts are taller - semicircle at the top, straightening out towards more of an arch shape along the sides. In any case, the fronts are definitely larger. Not uncommon on a front driver.

I went for a bike ride this afternoon and rode by one MS3 and a couple of regular 3's. At first glance they both looked a little nose high, but a closer look at the bottom of the car seemed essentially level. The MS3 looked just like my car (color and everything) and the regular 3's were a little higher but still level. Yet both cars had more wheel gap in the front.

I couldn't illustrate the wheel well differences, but I could illustrate this:



That's a level chassis for sure, give or take a few mills.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown My FSD's just arrived!

So did you get 'em intalled yet.
I presume you are doing it yourself.

[Ploppity Drown]

Well I got the rears in last night, and the fronts are going in tomorrow morning.

Very happy with the results so far. Rear stays planted better, yet feels more comfortable.

Originally Posted by kwsmithphoto Yes, it sure seemed that way. There's a metal tab on the inside (sway bar mount? I forgot) that bottoms out on the spindle, plus there's a slight ridge in the strut body that should line up with the top of the spindle. On my car, the right side was flush but the left side was about 1mm high yet the tab had bottomed out so there wasn't much we could do about it except grind the tab down. We decided against it.

Here's what that tab looks like... there's a little tolerance for misalignment within the hook but not much. I think if you get the bolt through you're in business.

That was my first thought, so we (meaning Alien3T) pulled the fronts, ground the paint off, coated the bare metal with anti-seize, and re-installed. It made a popping/clunking noise from the first attempt go away, but didn't seem to affect the ride height. It also made the struts go in much easier and faster.

Getting the struts in and out of the spindle is no doubt the biggest challenge in this job, although I'm reluctant to coat a part like this with anti-seize. The clamping of the spindle onto the strut body is part of what holds it in place, so I wouldn't want to introduce something slippery in between. I'll see how it goes just removing a few layers of that tacky paint.

We didn't measure anything, I'm just going by the visual result. Why the front looked lifted is a mystery, if the perches are in the same place as the OEM, and they're seated in the knuckle properly, which they are (with one irrelevant exception). Could it be the internals? Possibly, but they aren't gas pressurized. As you can see in that photo though, the damper shaft is quite a bit longer, which probably has something to do with it.

Didn't Stretch say the reason the Koni strut rod looked longer was because of a weak droop limiter in the stock strut? Whatever the case may be, I don't see how a longer rod in and of itself would raise the suspension. There's something we're missing here.

The front struts use two nuts, vs. the OEM single nut. The bottom nut attaches the damper shaft to the strut mount, the top nut locks it down. The offset box wrench FF mentioned is pretty much mandatory. The rear shocks also come with a different lock nut for the top mount.

You have this backwards. The front struts use a single, Nylock nut, which is included. The rear shocks use two nuts, one to lock the other in place. The original rear shocks only used a single nut. I'm not sure why Koni wants us to use two.

....

We'll see how my car sits once things have settled. I think it's not so much important how you measure your suspension height, so long as you're consistent.

[FreeFlyFreak]

I would try them first with out taking paint off. If the ridge can be seen clearly on the bottom of the strut they should go in fine, I only had trouble with the one where the ridge was barely visible due to the thickness of the paint.
If they go in fine, if not just take off as much as needed to make it fit. Just take the clear coat off to start.
I would try to leave something on there to prevent rust.
Take clear coat off leave paint, or if you take it all off, put a thin coat of rustoleum or some other rust preventative.

[Ploppity Drown]

crap... one of my front bumpstops is trashed. No chance getting an OEM part today, either.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown crap... one of my front bumpstops is trashed. No chance getting an OEM part today, either.

Mine had only about 5000 miles on them and you could tell both had been beaten on.
They were good enough to reuse though, but i could imagine 15K plus they would be toast.
The good news is I have not felt them bottom out since I put the FSD's on.