Back in the saddle

[phailerider]

As many of you know... today we had the car on the dyno. Im fairly tired as i've been going at it for the last 12 hours. But I figure an update for all you guys is in order.


First off... a big thanks for SNEAKYP86 for coming from Atlanta, GA!!!!... to check out the days events, meet my tuner,and get some experience with the standback..... i hope the entertainment we gave you was worth the drive.. It was nice to have another disi owner there. Im sure he'll weigh in with his impresions when he gets home about midnioght....lol.

on to the impressions and results....
"Knock" is mostly gone... a little here and there. I feel confident what is there is bullshit noise the sensor is picking up. The injector seals indeed were a large part of the problem and the head we have on now is causing no problems. The car feels and runs like its supposed to.

Around 4 pm we made our first pull on the dyno. We worked with jordan to get all the software upgrades. Remember...my car has been down since may. it was almost like starting over. My tuner did alot of playing with the software for the hell of it....he got pretty familiar with the older versions. the newer ones which are much more user friendly had him playing more than working...lol

Our first pull on the old tune we made within 5whp/and 5wtrq of the numbers in the spring. That was at 17-18 psi... the car never cut or had a problem as we retuned it around the new throttle flash. It went lean up top where we had pulled fuel before and it took some pulls to get that all sorted out. but by the end the a/fs were a perfect line in the mid 11's.
IM not gonna post graphs. I dont even have any. Today was more about reconstructing the car i had in the spring... except with a built motor. And proving that it is possible to make power, and run well..... for more than a day. I made 30 wot dyno runs tonight with not a single problem on the new motor. id say that can be measured as success.

We did try upping the boost towards the end of the night. At 20 psi, torque was up 30wtrq from the 18psi numbers... but we were cutting about 5500 rpms. We were able to tune most of it out.... but it was 40degrees and our tolerances were running low so we popped it back at 18...sent jordan the datalogs... fucked off for another couple hours and then came home.

The drive home sucked.

My first row into boost I hit 30psi... my next i hitmid 20's before i backed out. i have NO boost control right now..lol And NO idea why. It held great on the dyno.

All the hoses are in place. I looked for burn marks....anything. I turned the boost down to 16...took it back out and its still spiking up over 20 before i let back out. So im at a loss. talked to jordan and i'll go back over everything again myself when i have some more energy and some daylight to check it all. to me... its not a big deal. The main thing is i have my car back...and the motor seems strong, has no obvious issues at this point(assuming i dont boost 30 psi anymore..lol). I am going to get back on the dyno shortly. The numbers we made today... officially... i think the best pull was around 316-320whp.. we werent even focused on that so i dont even have an exact number lol. and REMEMBER... my peak numbers on this dyno in the spring were 322. The other newer dyno in town I made 346 one day after the 322 on my home dyno. So if you all want me to go dyno on that on friday so i can post 340-350... my answer is fuck off..lol this is all just playing right now...not numbers. I wanted numbers last night but with everything we had to deal with im resigned to being VERY satisfied with a car that runs the same as it did before... with a built motor.

I think most of you guys are probably more interested in how the motor runs than what power i can make over the next month or so. We'll tune for power when we get the goofy kinks out... but for now i am a very happy, tired ms3 owner running moderate boost on a built motor. nothin more..lol

fire away with questions if you got them. im tired and this post rambles like hell.. so maybe i havent been real clear...lol

ADDED.... this is for all the guys who may be new in the last 6 months. My car has....

Gt3071 turbo
forged rods/ forged pistons at stock compression
CPE standback
CPE throttle flash
CPE catted turboback exhaust
CPE cai
CPE cdfp
CPE fmic
CPE HKS bpv kit
CPE motor mount
ATP turbo inlet
PG turbo manifold
and a bunch of other shit that aint for power and it aint cpe so im leaving it out...lol

[mrlilguy157]

Cool.

Keep it together

[Grim]

are you running internal or external wastegate?

[phailerider]

I will keep it together Jon..thanks

right now internal wg and its not a happy internal wastegate.

id say its the resrictor or something... but the damn spring on the wg is at 12-13psi. something isnt reading at the boost solenoid right. im temtpted to jst unplug the whole damn thing in the morning and see what happens just with the wg. if it still spikes than my wg is jack obviously. if its the solenoid... then im at a loss. cause it held great on the dyno similar to in the spring before... we jacked it up to 20, then back down to 18... but we never ran it on the dyno again after we turned it back down to 18. at home later i turned it down again...down to 16... and it absolutely wants to boost at 30. fuck if i know.

and it aint creep. it just GOES.

also btw....the bs delete is gonna take some getting used to as well. Car revs more freely, but the vibes can be annoying if i get into it the wrong way. im mixed on it right now. but it had to happen.

oh yeah. i finally pulled my door trim off too. i was bored with a decent amount of nervous energy this morning..lol

[booya620]

hey bro, congrats on getting the car back and running. I'm sure with some good sleep and a clear head you'll figure out the boost issues.

[SneakyP86]

Well I just got home about a half hour ago.Man I'm getting to old for this spur of the moment shit,left the house at 9 this morning to go get a biscuit and somehow wound up in Greensboro NC. kind of reminds me of my heavy drinking days.

I went because I wanted to meet Randy and his tuner since Mark is the only one that I can find with any experience tuning with the Standback.

Randy's car ran great and sounded really good.It had very little knock if any during the pulls.It had a pretty damn straight AFR line (at least for any I've seen without meth) and held boost quite well on the dyno(I was expecting boost creep as that seems to be what I keep hearing from the bigger turbo guys).

Randy said hes only put like 200 miles on it since doing the head work and I think between that and the forged internals its gonna take a little while to get the tune just right,but I believe from what I saw and heard there is plenty of potential there when everything gets dialed in.

It was nice to meet Randy as he seems like a pretty cool guy and Mark his tuner is an out an out trip but is nice and seems very knowledgeable when it comes to tuning.So I can guarantee that once all my installs are done I will be taking another trip to Greensboro.........but this time it will be planned out.

Damn I never did get that biscuit either no wonder I'm so damn hungary.

[SLS MS3]

It's been a long 6 months, but it's nice to hear you're back behind the wheel of the MS3 again.

[mdogg]

welcome back! congrats on the return of your baby. now it's time to dial it in and see what you can do

[LBV]

Was the dyno a load-bearing dyno or an inertia-type like the Dynojet? I'm asking because the load while driving down the road is different than being on a dyno-jet and that "might" have something to do with the way your boost spikes on the road but not on the rollers. Remember that the ECU's programming is based off of load values ... something to consider.

[btkrausen]

nice Randy, been watching your section for this thread all day yesterday.

Congrats on the runs, i know you've gotta be excited. Can't wait to see your numbers when, and if, you post em'.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LBV Was the dyno a load-bearing dyno or an inertia-type like the Dynojet? I'm asking because the load while driving down the road is different than being on a dyno-jet and that "might" have something to do with the way your boost spikes on the road but not on the rollers. Remember that the ECU's programming is based off of load values ... something to consider.

this dyno is the lowest reading inertia dynojet ive ever seen on the forums. the several ms3s that have used it have all been disappointed. there is another inertia dynojet in town that was brand new in the spring. wed always dyno about 25whp higher there than here. i'll eventually get a dyno over there to get a more indicative "dynojet" number than this one gives. this one almost reads like a mustandg or something. anyway....

yesterday morning i had the basemap in there with everything zeroed except boost. it was set on 18psi. the couple of pulls on the street i held 18psi no problems. then we went on the dyno and it held too. it did hold on the dyno probably a little better than on the street before. Well.... 30 dyno pulls later...back on the street and wtf?

I just took it out to get a extra newspaper for my wife and boosted 25psi again in second. i wont even get into it above that. im too scared. the hoses are all exactly the way we always had them. im at a complete loss.

[Cherryspeed]

Randy,
Welcome back, I am glad you're engine is running strong again. Good luck with the fine tuning!

Originally Posted by palerider I just took it out to get a extra newspaper for my wife and boosted 25psi again in second. i wont even get into it above that. im too scared. the hoses are all exactly the way we always had them. im at a complete loss.

What size restriction pill are you running?
This is exactly what I was seeing when I had the GT2871 on my car. No matter what I did the boost was out of control. Those atp wg's are a real fucked design. I tried running on wg spring pressure only, and that helped, but I was still seeing boost levels over 22psi on stock internals...yikes.

Think it is time for an exwg for you....bummer!

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Cherryspeed Randy, Welcome back, I am glad you're engine is running strong again. Good luck with the fine tuning! What size restriction pill are you running? This is exactly what I was seeing when I had the GT2871 on my car. No matter what I did the boost was out of control. Those atp wg's are a real fucked design. I tried running on wg spring pressure only, and that helped, but I was still seeing boost levels over 22psi on stock internals...yikes. Think it is time for an exwg for you....bummer!

thanks brian.

im totally with your diagnosis. i think for sure it is the pill. however.... why all of a sudden? were going to adjust the pill size but this issue had never surfaced before. not back in the spring, and not yesterday morning before we hit the dyno. maybe i didnt hit it enough before the dyno but the 1 or 2 times i did there wasnt a problem.... spike 21 and hold 17-18. if not for the pulls on the street before the dyno id blame the throttle flash or something.... but this just cropped up all in one day.

im thinking cold temps may be making it worse too. but 25-30psi aint just cold temps. maybe pid controls for the street are bad? who knows.

i just rehooked the hoses to bypass the solenoid and the wastegate is straight off boost pressure now. when my wife gets back from her run, and my kids calm the fuck down... i'll take her back out.

main thing is the car feels great...yahoo. bs delete sucks tho. i dont like it at all. it feels like a bucket of bolts from 2800-3300 rpms

[Cherryspeed]

Discouraging news about the bsd

Def some load issues at work here on the streets.

[Haltech]

Damn Randy, that sucks, but im sure, an EW will be a solution that proves worthy in your situation. Looking forward to the final numbers mate.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Damn Randy, that sucks, but im sure, an EW will be a solution that proves worthy in your situation. Looking forward to the final numbers mate.

man do not feel bad for me at all!!! i am just another ms3 owner with a car that runs again...and its great.

My car is probably not going to be the fastest, or highest powered anymore...at least for a while. im really committed to this gt3071. I realized that last night. If we can get it running right with some meth at 23-24psi, and have cpe resolve the cut issues.... then im really gonna have a fun car. im not a track guy, and not capable of alot of this stuff on my own...so for just driving around with a car that still good and remains safe with less issues, i think this turbo is the nuts.

anyhow... again.. dont feel bad for me. The motor is running strong with a full, hard day under my belt with it and that is SO much better than what we had before. its been demoralizing for all of us to think that we might not be able to get that aspect right. for now it certainly is.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider man do not feel bad for me at all!!! i am just another ms3 owner with a car that runs again...and its great. My car is probably not going to be the fastest, or highest powered anymore...at least for a while. im really committed to this gt3071. I realized that last night. If we can get it running right with some meth at 23-24psi, and have cpe resolve the cut issues.... then im really gonna have a fun car. im not a track guy, and not capable of alot of this stuff on my own...so for just driving around with a car that still good and remains safe with less issues, i think this turbo is the nuts. anyhow... again.. dont feel bad for me. The motor is running strong with a full, hard day under my belt with it and that is SO much better than what we had before. its been demoralizing for all of us to think that we might not be able to get that aspect right. for now it certainly is.

Fuck high numbers. consistent track times is all that matters and reliability. You can tune on the ragged edge for Dyno Queen stats, or tune it to survive, which allows you to flog the shit out of it and blow some fuckin minds on the street. i choose, survival and actually having the ability, to drive the damn thing! Besides, with a built motor, 35r is to small now

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Besides, with a built motor, 35r is to small now

yeah right!!.... someday that may be true with these cars, but with everybody bitching and ready to jump ship...i settle for in around 400whp in a reliable dd with a built motor that aint gonna blow for any ole reason.

we get that sorted out...than i think we can play later for the huge numbers. i may be in over my head to some degree there anyway. I think if i was actually IN dc working with cpe on a daily basis than my car could accomplish that through them. In the end i think, they and P3, with the inhouse dyno after the 1st... is gonna have to make this happen for all of us. maybe on robbies car or another local bt car that can turn it over to them for a couple weeks to resolve this hardcore. its just too difficult to be back and forth on the phone all day everytime you get a little problem with the ecu. Maybe even Cobb breaks through....we'll see.

[Cherryspeed]

Originally Posted by palerider yeah right!!.... someday that may be true with these cars, but with everybody bitching and ready to jump ship...i settle for in around 400whp in a reliable dd with a built motor that aint gonna blow for any ole reason. we get that sorted out...than i think we can play later for the huge numbers. i may be in over my head to some degree there anyway. I think if i was actually IN dc working with cpe on a daily basis than my car could accomplish that through them. In the end i think, they and P3, with the inhouse dyno after the 1st... is gonna have to make this happen for all of us. maybe on robbies car or another local bt car that can turn it over to them for a couple weeks to resolve this hardcore. its just too difficult to be back and forth on the phone all day everytime you get a little problem with the ecu. Maybe even Cobb breaks through....we'll see.

No fears people, ALL these issues we be resolved.....mostly cause I want my car running like a raped ape.....lol.
Seriously though imho there isn't another group of guys in the country more committed to exorcising our demons than P3/CPE.
Patience WILL be rewarded....or my name ain't Nathan Arizona.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Cherryspeed No fears people, ALL these issues we be resolved.....mostly cause I want my car running like a raped ape.....lol. Seriously though imho there isn't another group of guys in the country more committed to exorcising our demons than P3/CPE. Patience WILL be rewarded....or my name ain't Nathan Arizona.

well.... thats what were all counting on. the dyno is still on for the 1st right? or at least for sure in Dec?

[Laloosh]

Hey randy, speaking of the pill are you sure it didnt turn itself in one of the lines? WHen i was putting in my nx .044 i was hard to get it aligned properly.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Hey randy, speaking of the pill are you sure it didnt turn itself in one of the lines? WHen i was putting in my nx .044 i was hard to get it aligned properly.

somehow i dont even see a pill except some little bullshit we have in the plastic tee. i definitely dont think theres enough size there. we must have changed it from the custom one i had before?!?!?

im at a loss. on the bright side. the car is so fucking fun at 13psi running just of the wastegate. i just ragged the hell out of it for the last 10 minutes... it aint no chipped gti let me tell you...lol

im baaaack.

[SneakyP86]

Damn man I'm sorry to hear about the boost going apeshit on you like that.I don't understand it,I might could see it if there was any creep at all or showed any tendency to do that on the dyno yesterday but the boost held pretty DAMN good in my opinion.But whatever I'm sure between you and Mark you'll get it sorted out quickly enough.

Glad to see that it was acting better this morning on just the wastgate.I haven't seen that many pills but I have never seen anything like what they were using in there,so I can't really speak on that but once again glad its acting better this morning.

[phailerider]

the pill size is exactly the size of a standard lead pencil.... what is that? i think under .02 right?

we obviously changed what was in there and it was NOT a good change. i dont remember it at all even tho it was me who basically set the lines up this time in dc. somebody must have said it would work..i dont even remember where we got it from. strange.

anyway.... this is definitely the problem. i dont know how the hell it was holding at all on the dyno, and it explains why the higher boost settings were bouncing alot more. i must have been smoking crack on the street before we got on. i was kind of timid so its possible that i just wasnt going all out boost, and i only put it under once or twice...i was on city streets..lol

[Darksun280]

I'm not a fan of the 3071 and if you think about it randys numbers are only 30 behind Chris's and chris has a 35r which is a totally different beast of a turbo.

[boosted3]

I t seems liek the stock motors r running better.Than these built ones.The only built motor i see running strong is tvissues and he got videos.Good luck randy and guys who have there motor built.I hope it all works out.Im scarred to even go a diff turbo.lol.Glad to hear though u got it up and running again

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I'm not a fan of the 3071 and if you think about it randys numbers are only 30 behind Chris's and chris has a 35r which is a totally different beast of a turbo.

until chris and i get on the same dyno on the same day....theres no telling what were running in comparison to each other. There are two dynos i use in town... both dynojets. I could do dynos one hour apart on the same setup and the newer one across town will read 20-30whp higher. i made 322 on my car in march on my tuners dyno... drove across town the next day and made 346. they were both at 18psi, only change was i switched to a synapse bpv instead of forge. At the time i thought it "cost" me power. I still made 24whp more. Happy dynos are the best mod money can buy if its just numbers your after..lol

ON A SIDE NOTE......
Boost issues are resolved. i just drilled the plug out from whatever the hell it was to 1/16ths with the smallest bit i had just to try it out. Standback was set at 16psi... car was all over the road holding 16 psi dead on perfect. On shifts it fell to 14 and then crawled to 16. I had a hard time staying on the raod and watching the gauge but its fixed nonetheless. Im a lucky dog..lol!!

And now i have to say also that the clutch i have in there grabs unbelieveably. as much as i can do without the bsdelete...the clutch makes up for it. and besides in wideopen boost 1st through 5th... who cares about vibrations...lol

[bf360]

congrats man, good luck hupefully itl be a strong reliable beast, dont get caught up in numbers

[SLS MS3]

Glad to hear it was such an "easy" fix. I can't beleive Jon hasn't talked you into driving to Texas yet, he's slacking on his duties!

[LBV]

Do you have any stiff motor mounts you can switch out to help quell the extra vibes from the bs delete?

[802MS3]

wow dude, congrats. glad youre satisfied!

[Lymerock]

Originally Posted by palerider somehow i dont even see a pill except some little bullshit we have in the plastic tee. i definitely dont think theres enough size there. we must have changed it from the custom one i had before?!?!? im at a loss. on the bright side. the car is so fucking fun at 13psi running just of the wastegate. i just ragged the hell out of it for the last 10 minutes... it aint no chipped gti let me tell you...lol im baaaack.

please keep us up to date on the overboost issues. it sounds like you have the same exact issue as me. i dont have boot creep, i have infinate boost! id hit 30 on my stock turbo if it werent for the boost cut limits christian has kept in place for me. I currently am running no restrictor pill and still cant floor it to redline, or even beyond 4500 in 3rd up.
I realize you are on a different turbo, but it seems you might be the first person experiencing what im am.
I want to avoid going to an external gate, but as it stands, thats the one solution.

thanks for sharing your build so far, its a HUGE help to a great deal of us to read about others findings and mishaps.

[subparpunk03]

Looks good man!!

What is this about the injector seals and knock? You have to pull off the IM to get to the injectors right?

I was about to suggest running an MBC for your boost control. Shon has been doing that and its been working well for him, though I think now he wants to go back to factory. Glad you got it resolved. I assume you ported your wastegate? We did that on Shons car and it helped but didn't completely solve it.

Sucks about the BSD, but it sounds like it wouldn't affect my car much cause right in that <3000 range its already annoying from the engine mount. I'll be doing that on mine shortly, though I'm hoping the ETD will help.

We all need to rock the gap this spring.

[phailerider]

bsd delete sucks..lol I hate it... maybe with better mounts throughout it will help. but for now..city driving is fucking incredibly bad... and if the resonation is at the wrong time it even affect how the turbo spools. its hard to explain. the engine will rev real fast and the car feels like its going nowhere. off the gas, resonation disappears... i go back into it, then boom the car takes off. its hard to explain.

injectors are beneath the IM... they should be checked periodically for carbon buildup. add it too the list. DO not remove them.... it costs 100 bucks to replace the seals... aluminum crimps..one shot and done. make sure you install them the correct way too. they go in domed out from the injector into the head.

my boost is fucking up again. 16 was a lucky guess yesterday i suppose. im still gonna need to play with the pill size cause now i think its too big. i set it on 18 and it wanted to bost 15 then 17 then 15 then 17.... no 18..lol no worries tho.

main thing is...again.... this car feels "right". there is less knock than ever. i wonder even if the ecu learns to filter better. on the way home tonight i couldnt generate it. ive always been able to "make knock" on the sensor and i couldnt at all. at 16 psi it is running mid 10s a/f up top...remember we tuned for 18psi in the 11's. car was just running wonderfully on a very nice (fast) commute.

ps.... my tuner and darrell cox spent an hour goofing around with my other head and speculation this afternoon, while i was working. I may after many months of talking about it... go ahead and get my car in their hands for some stuff to play with. Our car definitely has piqued their interest a little. Not for awhile tho...lol i enjoyed it too much today.

[Derek88]

This is good to hear. Congrats on getting the car back and having fun with it. I honestly feel that with all you've been through with this car, you deserve it to behave like you want it.

[subparpunk03]

Talk to Sean, he was using an MBC with no restrictor pill for a while and other than creep he was rock solid.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 Talk to Sean, he was using an MBC with no restrictor pill for a while and other than creep he was rock solid.

oh...i know this can be fixed easily either by mbc or ewg, but i want to dial it in with the standback. its a fun little project for now, and once done it will make changing boost a breeze. im gonna handwash the car too i think

long term i'll probably go ewg.

[CraigHJr]

Cool to see you up and running again man.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by CraigHJr Cool to see you up and running again man.

thanks craig... post pics of the subie when you get it!! or do you already?

[crazyitalian041]

exciting news! glad to hear is randy! hope my bsd is ok.