Back in the saddle

[phailerider]

...........Update.............

i dynoed again today at the "new" dyno in town. it wasnt what i hoped for. the built engine runs like a locomotive but definitely lost power, from the stocker. I put down 325whp at 18psi.... with basically the same setup as the 346 on stock internals...... I tried making more boost and the car had trouble holding boost on the dyno. on the street it does better... we tried several pill sizes, and i played with the pids to no avail. the one run we made 325 it held boost well, it was the first run of the day, and it was at 18psi. all the rest were consistently in the 315-325 range. it didnt matter what boost we tried. i did 16-20psi and it could never lock in and hold. it never hit the target boost until 5500-6000.... often running 15ish psi for most of the run, climbing to target too late.

all this means two things.

1. gt35 time. this turbo isnt going to make the numbers i want with the numbers im getting on the heavier internal components. car runs STRONG.... but 400 is gonna be a heavy reach with a gt3071. i might as well upgrade now.

2. a trip to cpe so they can dial it in for me with a load based dyno. that... and maybe an external wastegate. i have the wastegate coming from loosh. i so want to control boost with the standback, but im still not getting the results i hoped for. It pisses me off cause ive seen it done before and it was even doing better last spring when we had the turbo on. mark set the pids then, and im just fucking up now i suppose.

fire up questions. but essentially the motor is VERY strong, but the numbers for now(at least compared to the stock internals), are down. ive hit 30 psi on the guage 3 times. today on the dyno it was for longer than i wanted for sure. we actually blew the hks of the coldpipe today, when the boost solenoid hose came loose, and boost spiked to >30psi. but the head and the motor held. thank you mark riley..lol and thanks ken, for a bottom end that could power an army chopper. either way... im back to trying to make power. it feels good to not be fixing things. just trying for power on a fast car i can drive home at the end of the day...lol

[bova]

if i wanted i could jump all over you for your low results like you do cobb dyno's but i'm just going to say congrats on getting that thing running and hope you can make more power. you should buy ron's gt35 despite your guys issuse, lol. good work none the less.

[MarkyMark]

good to hear the internals are holding up. Now put a real turbo on it.

[crazyitalian041]

Interesting indeed, i will be watching this.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by bova80 if i wanted i could jump all over you for your low results like you do cobb dyno's but i'm just going to say congrats on getting that thing running and hope you can make more power. you should buy ron's gt35 despite your guys issuse, lol. good work none the less.

i post even when i get "disappointing" results. as opposed to the bt cobb guys and kevin...lol THATS the big difference. But go ahead and jump on me.

bottom line... this is a built motor, and they NEVER make more power by themselves. Id like guys to weigh in on what an expected loss is. i was thinking 5% maybe... and thats about where im at.

the only other changes are switching over to cpe exhaust, intake, and fuel pump. that obviously is gonna be a wash +/- 5whp. losing the mscai actually might have cost me power... but i'll get consistency in return.

I dont mind the discussion bova... and the fact that my power is down isnt gonnas make me act like i need to hide it. this experience is "our disi experience". we all can learn here, and nobody is saying were done here. i really need to get the car back up to dc. i was burning up the phonelines with dada, and jordan... were all excited as to where we go from here.

the important thing is i got a motor thats seen heavy boost 400 times and its as strong as day one. for all of us we can be excited about that. it goes along way to dispelling the notion that built motors were gonna have problems... hell as ive said... ive been overboosting, spiking... crazy shit and its not had an issue yet. thats BIG news. the fact it lost power over the stock internals was to be expected.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark good to hear the internals are holding up. Now put a real turbo on it.

you got it.... loosh has one im gonna be discussing shortly. gt30 is VERY fun and my car feels bulletproof.... but i just dont think its gonna punch out enough for where i want to go. im not gonna give up on it just yet tho.

[bova]

just wanted to get on you a bit, all in good fun. i know it will take some time to get the power your want.

[FantasmoNegro]

I hate the fact that we had our issues today but I am glad that your car held together. You will get it right and proceed to head choppin. I think you could have at least matched that number maybe even exceeded it with a clean even boost curve. When cars are on the dyno I have seen where fluctuations in power end up making the car have to catch up to making the power it was before. With your boost all willy nilly you were not going to get a good number. You have the parts to get there (except for WG and a bigger turbo) its just a matter of patience.

[phailerider]

culyon...you said 5% loss could be considered typical. ive heard that too somewhere along the way it seems. what would some of you other guys say? is 5% to much? or could it even be more?

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by palerider the pill size is exactly the size of a standard lead pencil.... what is that? i think under .02 right? we obviously changed what was in there and it was NOT a good change. i dont remember it at all even tho it was me who basically set the lines up this time in dc. somebody must have said it would work..i dont even remember where we got it from. strange. anyway.... this is definitely the problem. i dont know how the hell it was holding at all on the dyno, and it explains why the higher boost settings were bouncing alot more. i must have been smoking crack on the street before we got on. i was kind of timid so its possible that i just wasnt going all out boost, and i only put it under once or twice...i was on city streets..lol

You and Jordan did all the vacuum lines because all I had was a cluster fuck of lines in a box and you said you would do it.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by redrocketz You and Jordan did all the vacuum lines because all I had was a cluster fuck of lines in a box and you said you would do it.

thanks... either way that tip is long gone. it was WAY to small. ive been using welding tips... .045, .052.... today. Ive also experimented with .040, .060.... you name it. The pill size ive got in now is what i think im gonna keep... .045. PID controls still need work. Sometimes boost holds great, and then doesnt.

Im sending datalogs to jordan to see what the hell is going on. At this point he doesnt believe this has to do with the boost control, but instead maybe wastegate action or something. We'll get to the bottom of it. This turbo came off the blown engine and theres even suspicion that it had some damage possibly. We'll shortly see.

[Laloosh]

less power witht he same boost...lol makes you wonder about compression.

[Cherryspeed]

Randy,
Get the exwg set up on there asap and run like a 1.4 bar spring - completely bypassing the stock solenoid!
If you were here we could experiment with the pill on the dyno and dial in the boost control, but that probably ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
See what happens...who knows.

[Laloosh]

looks like hes got my mani and 44 ont he way...possibly the trubo as well

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh less power witht he same boost...lol makes you wonder about compression.

dont say that

i am thinking the gt35, wastegate, mani, and hks ignition is gone. whatcha gonna do for me buddy...lol

[Laloosh]

its not gonna, u said you want it all reserved so its all reserved lol
by compression i mean piston compression being not stock

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Cherryspeed Randy, Get the exwg set up on there asap and run like a 1.4 bar spring - completely bypassing the stock solenoid! If you were here we could experiment with the pill on the dyno and dial in the boost control, but that probably ain't gonna happen anytime soon. See what happens...who knows.

i talked to jason and jordan tonight. im coming up on the evening of the 19th(friday).... i'll stay through the weekend.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh its not gonna, u said you want it all reserved so its all reserved lol by compression i mean piston compression being not stock

i know what the fuck you meant...lol the pistons are stock compression. i trust that.

[Laloosh]

well then i dunno, its not like a gt30 is shit all of a sudden, still better then the stocker. Maybe its this cold weather bullshit

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh well then i dunno, its not like a gt30 is shit all of a sudden, still better then the stocker. Maybe its this cold weather bullshit

it was low 60s here today and the dyno was heated inside.... i was getting 1.02 CF.
it just is what it is. you dont buy the internals theory? heavier internals lose power.... id only expect it to be compounded on a direct injection motor. especially how small our rods are stock.

[crazyitalian041]

Originally Posted by Cherryspeed Randy, Get the exwg set up on there asap and run like a 1.4 bar spring - completely bypassing the stock solenoid! If you were here we could experiment with the pill on the dyno and dial in the boost control, but that probably ain't gonna happen anytime soon. See what happens...who knows.

orly hehe.

[Laloosh]

to be honest i dont know too much about that, but that may be because i have yet to hear of this theory

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh to be honest i dont know too much about that, but that may be because i have yet to hear of this theory

why do companys always talk about lighter weight internal components.... if not to gain power. i think i heard some where that these pauter rods were 50% heavier than our stock rods. if thats the case i cant beleive it wouldnt cost something. maybe 5% is crap... but there was going to be something.

i admit, i dont know much regarding this either.... and maybe im just trying to justify it to myself. bottom line is boost was goofy, and internals may be affecting it.

i have half a notion to throw everything out today... dial in my boost and go back. My last tfour runss i did at 16psi, 17psi, and 19psi twice. raedy for this.... i never made less than 308 or more than 320. my boost kpet spiking, then dropping to like 14-15 and then slowly crawling back up to target by 5500-6000 rpms. I think i fucking wasted my money today.

Loosh... do you have that wg/ mani in your possession yet?

[FantasmoNegro]

Every little added gram of weight on your rotational mass is going to cost you power. What kind of Rods did you go with? Pauter X design is about the lightest I have seen that is not an I style rod. H beam rods are really frickin heavy. Without going full billet aluminum on your rods, like a set of carillos, you are going to gain weight. Think about it, if you are willing to switch to a Aluminum Flywheel and a lighter Harmonic balancer and make power, what is added weight inside the engine going to do? Now if your builder employed some extra tricks in the buildup like oil scavenging type stuff or knife edging the crank or little things like that a built motor will NOT make you power all by itself. The only reason why you don't hear that being talked about much is because people tend to throw more boost or juice on it without seeing its numbers on the old set up.

I still say that your car is stronger than what it showed up on the dyno today. If the power wasn't trying to catch up with itself on the dyno you would have been ahead of where you were before. The boost issues were killing you on there.

A few things are rumbling through my head and for a later time I think we need to discuss some of these things. Nitrous being one of the things, I bet you that is how Monkey got his number. Someone has a bottle infront of his intake. Has anyone messed with intercooler sprayers on here?

[mdogg]

thanks for posting the results randy! I think this is just more proof that most of the "conventional" wisdom does not apply here. We need the smart guys working overtime.

CHRISTMAS CANCELLED FOR CP-E SINCE THEY SHOULD BE WORKING!!!

[phailerider]

but you know... i deleted the bs as well...that have made up for some. we ported the head, and mani a bit... deleted the balance shaft... and then the cpe stuff was added. maybe it was just the boost being stupid again. it makes me want to take the day off to work on the stupid boost. i havent really just gone out and tried to dial it for 20-25 pulls in a row. i was satisfied before. but fuck that now.

either way.....somthing isnt adding up here.

[Deadman]

ya its not adding up... get an ap

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Deadman ya its not adding up... get an ap

lol... i made 346 with roughly the same setup and a standback before... for once i think we can have a discussion that throws ems out of the equation. unless cobb put a curse on me... thats always possible. i know they do believe in voodoo.

[Deadman]

i was jk you know that nice job regardless... lets get this thing figured out so i can grab my bt !

[JimmyMac]

Maybe the ported head had something to do with it? Was the port before or after/during the build?

When you heading up to CPe? Need a shotgun buddy? hehe

Next week are my exams, then I'll be out of school til Jan 7th. I'll be out of work Dec 20th thru Jan 5th. Plenty of time to rip the motor out of my car and see what's up with it. Good to hear your motor is holding up strong. Just sucks the power is down.

[Lex]

Have you done a compression test on the motor since it's been built?

[CraigHJr]

Randy I think your barely in the efficiency range of the turbo at 18psi. Why switch to an even bigger slower spooling turbo to run 18psi? You could have done a reworked stocker for that. I think you should switch to the EWG but keep the GT30 and run it at 25-28psi like it is meant to be. Do you have all the MAF cuts and crap or are you running a larger MAF housing and flash now?

[MS6_Auburn_Fan]

What psi waste gate spring do you have installed? If it's the 14psi spring then try bypassing the boost control solenoid and see if it will hold boost consistently. Do you have a manual or electronic boost controller? If so then try that as well and see if you hold boost. If that doesn't work then you know it might be the turbo or something else.

Also maybe this was already stated but your down only 21 hp on a completely different dyno. It could just be something as simple as the dyno calibration.

One other thing is your motor is one of the first if not the only at this time to be running with ported head. Maybe that has something to do it.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

[CraigHJr]

I think this is down 21 hp on the same dyno where you previously made 346 right? I agree on dialing in the car on just wastegates alone then use the SB to bring the boost up a tad more. If your spiking 30 randomly there is something wrong with the setup somewhere. The stock boost control solenoid is small and can only up the pressure so much. Perrin makes a larger BCS and it uses 1/4" ports. I spoke to Jordan about it a while back and he said it should be no problem to make it work with the SB.

[phailerider]

copy post FYI.. thought this thread should have it

stock i was in the 230s on my home dyno(Marks). in the spring, i punched out 323 at 18psi(gt30)there... and then right after i got the car back(10 days ago) i made 319 at 18psi there. we were having a bit of an issue controlling boost, but not nearly like the other day.

i feel that this last dyno day for me was a complete waste... i wanted it to be something but my boost was acting like a drunken sailor. there was no ryhme or reason to my numbers and i should have thrown it all out until i could get the boost dialed in. i was just anxious to share news with all of you. sometimes i think i share too much.

so on marks dyno..

23x stock
251 mscai/vibrant exhaust
278 18 psi/ fully bolted... my turbo was on the way out
323 18psi gt3071/ fully bolted + pg mani

ive got a shitton of more numbers but thats a good idea.

on the newer dyno here local... i made
288 18 psi/ fully bolted... with the stock turbo
346 18psi gt3071r/ fully bolted + pg mani

[Darksun280]

Thanks i was under the impression that you only dyno'd once big turbo

[andre0121]

dude my boost is acting up and so is my buddys. we nailed it down and most of the problem seems to be the standback and the solenoid. Normally i was running of my wastegate and held 20#s no spike, just hit and hold. After installing the standback and going back to the solenoid, ive been unable to control boost on both maps, hitting 30 and above. Now i have just gone back to wastegate to turbo and everything is back to normal except im spiking 22 and holding 20.

Now my boys car just got a reworked turbo and with the standback it spikes like crazy and cant hold more than 16 dropping to 14. Ran it of the wastegate str8 also and bypassed the standback, no spike and holds the 16.

im with the idea we need a bigger bcs. Also by the way Monkeys car hit the 411 no nitrous theres even a video, its legit.

[JumpingJackson]

You have changed the characteristics of the turbo and the restrictor pill that is built into the turbo hasnt changed with it. You need a bigger restrictor pill most likely. the one on the stock turbo is right inside the boost source fitting. You need to replace it with a bigger one some how or enlarge that one. I think the stock size is .035"

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider i post even when i get "disappointing" results. as opposed to the bt cobb guys and kevin...lol THATS the big difference. But go ahead and jump on me. bottom line... this is a built motor, and they NEVER make more power by themselves. Id like guys to weigh in on what an expected loss is. i was thinking 5% maybe... and thats about where im at. the only other changes are switching over to cpe exhaust, intake, and fuel pump. that obviously is gonna be a wash +/- 5whp. losing the mscai actually might have cost me power... but i'll get consistency in return. I dont mind the discussion bova... and the fact that my power is down isnt gonnas make me act like i need to hide it. this experience is "our disi experience". we all can learn here, and nobody is saying were done here. i really need to get the car back up to dc. i was burning up the phonelines with dada, and jordan... were all excited as to where we go from here. the important thing is i got a motor thats seen heavy boost 400 times and its as strong as day one. for all of us we can be excited about that. it goes along way to dispelling the notion that built motors were gonna have problems... hell as ive said... ive been overboosting, spiking... crazy shit and its not had an issue yet. thats BIG news. the fact it lost power over the stock internals was to be expected.

The Cobb guys have nothing to prove at this time... There are details to be worked out with other parts of this car.

I still do not know why, you didnt go higher compression? I would of bumped it up.

[andre0121]

ye that's what im doing next week. Gotta drill it out!