Fellas, it's time to put on your big boy pants and make some real power <epic>

[www.cp-e.com]

It's amazing to me to think back a little over two years ago when the first Mazdaspeed 3/6's came out. I was so excited to start playing with them because the direct injection fuel system offered some really amazing advantages over tradition PFI setups. We could theoretically run engines leaner, run more compression, and make more power than ever before. Sounds great, right? Enter reality.

The first headaches with the Mazdaspeeds began when people started getting fuel cuts when they installed cold air intakes that didn't have properly sized MAF housings. That wasn't too hard to fix, but then the weather changed and the temperature dropped. This induced a seemingly random fuel cut, and maybe even more mysterious, people made /less/ power than in the warm weather?! The potentiometer-based winter fuel cut fix was a tremendous breakthrough, but overall wasn't the right solution.

But as if the Mazdaspeeds weren't fussy enough, fuel pressure issues started cropping up at about 300whp. Laloosh and I know /all/ about that stuff, lol. Anyway, it was clear no one wanted to stray from the DI system, so a high pressure fueling solution was developed. Everything looked good, but other little issues emerged as the power levels rose: The MAF sensor started maxing out, so we created a 3,25" housing and matching flash to alter the MAF transfer table. The throttle starting closing for no reason, so we developed a flash to keep it pinned. The factory MAP sensor only reads up so 23psi, and if you want to control a turbocharger reliably up around that pressure, you need more headroom. So we developed software for the Standback which enabled it to use a 3.5-bar sensor (~30psi). It's amazing how many things that had to be reverse engineered and fixed to start making some real power, and yet, things still haven't been quite right.

The one issue that's never quite been resolved has been the fuel cut. What once started as a small annoyance has turned into a full-blown nightmare. It's caused some of the most talented and driven people I've ever met to throw theirs arms up in frustration, and in some cases I can't blame them. I think it's safe to say that these DISI motors are no 4g63, at least, it hasn't been until now. We've been waiting for the time when the Mazdaspeeds actually run consistently with whichever big honkin blower any lunatic might choose. I think that time has come, so boys, let's start making some big numbers :friday:

Okay, so enough history, here are the details. Lou has been working for several weeks in developing specialized tools that would help him understand the fuel cut. Let me be explicit here: We did not put a band-aid over the boo-boo that will just create problems later. We didn't just tweak a few bytes in order to get the car to stop cutting under a specific condition. Lou reverse-engineered the fuel cut, found the switch, and shut set it to "OFF." The car will not, under any circumstances, fuel cut. What does this mean? Time warp to 1993. We are now tuning Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T's. You can adjust fuel, timing, or boost any way you'd like and the car will not cut fuel. HOWEVER, that also implies that Mazda's safety Nanny has been put to sleep. If you make a mistake and your fuel pressure drops too low, or if your boost climbs 'too high' there is no more safety net. There will be no fuel cut to prevent disaster. So, now that all of the obstacles are out of the way, we can start tuning these cars like they're meant to be tuned, lol.

CrazyItalian (Robbie) delivered his car to P3 several months ago, and he basically asked them to build him the most powerful DISI MazdaSpeed3 in the world. Not a tough request all things considered, right? Well P3 is now wrapping up Robbie's project and I can personally attest to the quality of their work. I had the pleasure of sitting in on a boost tuning session with dadasracecar and y2kcowboy today and the thing absolutely rips.

Meanwhile, Lou was wrapping up some of the finishing touches on his fuel cut fix. He asked if I had anyone local that had an as of yet incurable fuel cut that we could use as a test case. I told him that I didn't know of any. Charles from P3 came back into Lou's office after finishing up some electrical work outside and he mentioned that Robbie's car had begun fuel cutting as it got later and the temperature dropped. Not ones to miss an opportunity, we flashed Robbie's car. We can't get it to fuel cut anymore...even at 24psi.

We're going to do some more testing but this is incredibly promising. We feel that we've found the switch to turn the fuel cuts off, and we're going to offer it to anyone that wants it. We promised the Mazda community that we'd take these cars to the next level, and I think the time has come. 2009 looks very promising indeed

[dadasracecar]

Giddyup motherfuckers!

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Giddyup motherfuckers!

[Grim]

in borat voice "very nice!"

[aaronc7]

I've cut a few times testing maps for the AP. Basically I was told "oh yeah, I just need to raise a few limits in the map", which then fixed my cuts completely. This is pretty much the same as that, just totally DISABLED? correct me if Im wrong

[Lex]

Let's rock and roll! This is awesome news.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 I've cut a few times testing maps for the AP. Basically I was told "oh yeah, I just need to raise a few limits in the map", which then fixed my cuts completely. This is pretty much the same as that, just totally DISABLED? correct me if Im wrong

This is nothing like raising some limits. This is disabling the algorithm that the ecu uses to cut fuel. Regardless of the conditions that cause fuel cut, it will not happen. We "raised some limits" long ago with the IAT potentiometer mod - just raised the IAT and eliminated fuel cut until it got really cold. THat trick quit working on Whoosh's car on the dyno below 30 deg F. Now the car will not cut ever for any reason.

[Lex]

How much power is Robbie's car making?

[dadasracecar]

No dyno yet. FWIW the Dashhawk says north of 420. LOL. THat would be nice.

[aaronc7]

lol @ dashhawk Instant HP.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I really have not been paying attention to the cold weather cuts that much since I never have the issue

[SSinstaller]

Great work!!!!

Can you can go ahead and add this to my ECM before you send it back too me? I should be calling you sometime next week after I find out when my shop will need to have my standback, ECM, MAP sensor, and the MAF housing here. I know you had said that it should be ready in time, but does it still look like the AUX box will ready sometime in the next few weeks?

Chris

Also, any luck turning off those EGR MILS?

[JumpingJackson]

Sounds like you guys have done your homework. Grats CP-E. Although this definately isnt for everyone, i would make anyone who has this done sign a disclaimer/waiver if i was selling it. Haha I assume you are making this an option for FullControl Flash people?

[superskaterxes]

very nicee. not that u would know but since the AP now has fuelcut free maps (for the 6) do u know what they did to change it? when i first flashed the map i hit like 21PSI and cut after about 5 miles. after a good 100 on the map i cant get it to cut even at a similar PSI in 35 degree weather. so this would mean their flash still has the saftey but without the actual cut. i dunno what christian did but maby u guys can chime in. thanks again jordan for everything your doing for the community



HOO-RA!!!

[phailerider]

does robbie have the maf? how the heck did he run 24psi on the map? and how did he not max out the maf at 5.0? im hitting 4.9s at 20psi.

im REALLY confused by this.

robbies got a new map and maf then right? or is it not necessary somehow?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Sounds like you guys have done your homework. Grats CP-E. Although this definately isnt for everyone, i would make anyone who has this done sign a disclaimer/waiver if i was selling it. Haha I assume you are making this an option for FullControl Flash people?

why? so the car stays under warranty?

were shooting for 500whp. i dont give a shit if a safety feature is eliminated just in case i have a shittty tune. thats for the ap guys.

[2nr]

great job guys!

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar This is nothing like raising some limits. This is disabling the algorithm that the ecu uses to cut fuel. Regardless of the conditions that cause fuel cut, it will not happen. We "raised some limits" long ago with the IAT potentiometer mod - just raised the IAT and eliminated fuel cut until it got really cold. THat trick quit working on Whoosh's car on the dyno below 30 deg F. Now the car will not cut ever for any reason.

oh sure, now it's fixed!

good job cp-e
anxious to see what comes of this new breakthrough

[itzl0l]

lol ^^^^

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider why? so the car stays under warranty? were shooting for 500whp. i dont give a shit if a safety feature is eliminated just in case i have a shittty tune. thats for the ap guys.

Wow you have really outdone yourself this time Randy with this post. Not only have you pointed out the obvious, you have also for no reason shamelessly attacked the competition when they weren't even mentioned or referenced previously in this thread.

It is quite obvious if you have the FCF + Standback your not worried about your warranty and that you are looking to make big HP. So what was the point of this post? Oh wait it was to throw slime at the competition however you can manage to squeeze it in. Do CP-E, the readers of this forum, and yourself a favor and start conducting yourself in a professional manner. Your just making yourself look bad, and CP-E by way of association.

Jordan and everyone else at CP-E manages to conduct themselves in a very professional and friendly manner and i think you are doing them a disservice by the way you act here.

Back on topic: Im sure this will be a boon to everyone with a FCF + Standback looking to make big power.

[Meder]

From how I understand it, this feature is just gone, its removed. You will not have any sort of back up net(fuel cut) to save you if something goes wrong.


This does not have to be about a tune. Other things can fail, they will fail, and you may end up building another motor despite the tune you used. This means little to some and I understand why someone such as pale or whoosh would want this. Is it possible for the limits to be raised based off of the modifications of the car? Does it have to be removed completely? Why not just change a few numbers as someone claimed above in another post based off of what your goal is for the car?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by Meder From how I understand it, this feature is just gone, its removed. You will not have any sort of back up net(fuel cut) to save you if something goes wrong. This does not have to be about a tune. Other things can fail, they will fail, and you may end up building another motor despite the tune you used. This means little to some and I understand why someone such as pale or whoosh would want this. Is it possible for the limits to be raised based off of the modifications of the car? Does it have to be removed completely? Why not just change a few numbers as someone claimed above in another post based off of what your goal is for the car?

From what i gathered that is correct they completely disable the ECU's ability to fuel cut. Its a great start but personally i would rather adjust the triggers of the ECU's fuel cut to compensate for the changing conditions required to meet the users HP goals rather than remove the fuel cut completely. But that is much more involved than just turning it off completely

[bova]

funny that yet there are attacks on the AP that this has been done on the AP for about month now or more. it may not be completely disabled like cp-e has done but it has been resolved, so i'm sure it could be disabled if they wanted it to be. call me an AP fanboy all you want, i just don't want you to think they struck gold. and yeah i'm sure i'll have to hear how many times cp-e dynoed above the AP but i'm on both sides. just waiting for jordan to get me some v3 maps.

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Great work!!!! Can you can go ahead and add this to my ECM before you send it back too me? I should be calling you sometime next week after I find out when my shop will need to have my standback, ECM, MAP sensor, and the MAF housing here. I know you had said that it should be ready in time, but does it still look like the AUX box will ready sometime in the next few weeks? Chris Also, any luck turning off those EGR MILS?

Thanks Chris!! I will absolutely flash this to your ECU, but if I could ask you one favor, shoot me an email.

I think the analog sensor input deal will be ready by the time you're ready to roll. I keep forgetting to ask Lou about progress on that, but I'll get you an update when you give me a call.

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Sounds like you guys have done your homework. Grats CP-E. Although this definately isnt for everyone, i would make anyone who has this done sign a disclaimer/waiver if i was selling it. Haha I assume you are making this an option for FullControl Flash people?

Thanks! Nope, no disclaimer required. Considering all of the motors that have popped as of late, I sort of question the fuel cuts usefulness

Originally Posted by superskaterxes very nicee. not that u would know but since the AP now has fuelcut free maps (for the 6) do u know what they did to change it? when i first flashed the map i hit like 21PSI and cut after about 5 miles. after a good 100 on the map i cant get it to cut even at a similar PSI in 35 degree weather. so this would mean their flash still has the saftey but without the actual cut. i dunno what christian did but maby u guys can chime in. thanks again jordan for everything your doing for the community HOO-RA!!!

LOL, thanks Anthony

No idea what approach Cobb took, but we're pretty pleased with our solution /so far/. I'll comment on why we took this approach below...

Originally Posted by palerider does robbie have the maf? how the heck did he run 24psi on the map? and how did he not max out the maf at 5.0? im hitting 4.9s at 20psi. im REALLY confused by this. robbies got a new map and maf then right? or is it not necessary somehow?

LOL, nope, like I said, "No fuel cut." He can boost to whatever he wants and he won't get any cut. He can max out the MAF and it won't cut. They were monitoring boost pressure using an in-car gauge. We desperately need to hook him up with the bigger MAF/MAP flash though!

Originally Posted by Meder From how I understand it, this feature is just gone, its removed. You will not have any sort of back up net(fuel cut) to save you if something goes wrong. This does not have to be about a tune. Other things can fail, they will fail, and you may end up building another motor despite the tune you used. This means little to some and I understand why someone such as pale or whoosh would want this. Is it possible for the limits to be raised based off of the modifications of the car? Does it have to be removed completely? Why not just change a few numbers as someone claimed above in another post based off of what your goal is for the car?

Yup, we've chosen to remove it completely because it hasn't really been much of a help, and it's had a heck of a lot of opportunities! When I take a minute and consider how many different fuel cut triggers I've witnessed, not once have I said, "Man! I'm glad the fuel cut there otherwise that motor would have popped!" My experience with the fuel cuts has always been painful, and never helpful.

I'm not disagreeing with you here though, this mod isn't for everyone. However, I don't think it's as drastic as you might think. I'm not trying to talk you into anything, just consider this:

What pops motors? Typically motors fail from too much heat, or too much pressure. The former, isn't protected by fuel cut. You can bake your oil, boil your coolant, and melt your valves, but your fuel won't be cut by the ECU. The fuel cut can only cut based on sensor inputs and subsequent calculations. So what does that leave?

Cylinder pressure can cause damage when air/fuel ignites uncontrollably, or when ignition timing and boost are too high. These are the types of failure modes the fuel cut is supposed to protect us from. The problem is, these types of failures are almost invariably instantaneous, and the fuel cut /is not./ How many times have you heard, "Man, I totally maxed out the KR on my DashHawk until I got out of it!"? The fuel cut may be a solution for engine failure prevention, but it's far from a great one, that's for sure.

So yes, we could raise the maximum boost pressure limits, or lower the minimum fuel pressure trigger, (although I'd argue that's just as dangerous as removing the fuel cut all together), but that's /a lot/ of work. There are many many different triggers based on all kinds of different conditions, many of which are useless, like the cold weather cut.

So you're right in that this flash isn't for the casual modder, but it isn't a deathwish by any perspective either. To be clear, if you don't know a whole heck of a lot about cars but want to go faster, there are other tools available. This is for the guys that want to go fast, unimpeded by any silly Mazda 'nannery.'

Thanks again for all of the congratulations guys! I'm sure after all his effort Lou appreciates the kudos!! I'll keep everyone updated for sure.

[Zoomies MPS3]

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com We're going to do some more testing but this is incredibly promising. We feel that we've found the switch to turn the fuel cuts off, and we're going to offer it to anyone that wants it. We promised the Mazda community that we'd take these cars to the next level, and I think the time has come. 2009 looks very promising indeed

Its such a pitty that us aussie blokes cant get our hands on CPE flashes easily, i mean there is no way i want to ship my ECU halfway around the world.... If only your aussie distributer (MPS garage) could do theses flashes then we'd be happy as a pig in shit.

[Smoker6]

Sweet. Me want. How much will it cost us if we have the SB+FCF?

[gsrtype1]

BADASS! I need to get my ecu over there!

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Sweet. Me want. How much will it cost us if we have the SB+FCF?

+1

[oskinosmee]

Will this be an extra add on to the FFC?

[phailerider]

i am a sales man. no shit. thats why i pay for this subforum. the company i represent is now offering a solution(that im going to sell...lol), to make our ecu as tunable as every other big power platform in the aftermarket community.

the usefulness of a safety fuel cut, that doesnt save motors, but only limits power, and creates massive roadblocks for making that power after 2 years is now gone. there is NO drawback. if there was a drawback.... wed see kpro dialing in fuel cuts for big power hondas. wed see fuel cuts on srt4s. wed see fuel cuts on evos and stis. this is a mazda thing. it sucks and now its gone.

NOW... if youre going to question it. (and ive only seen that in here from AP users). then you can stfu and get out. In fact... if you have been a vocal AP user, and you dont have a technical question. i really dont even want to see you in here. why?

because im going to be selling this and i dont want some stupid, ignorant, biased opinion of why a goddam fuel cut should exist in our ecus, just because Cobb left it in your ots flash. its bad for my business, when ignorant shit like that gets posted in a thread like this.

it wouldnt surprise me a bit that cobb may be capable of dialing it out... but it wouldnt surprise me a bit if they couldnt either. thats for the cobb subforum. in this forum, where going for big power has been a focus, gettting rid of these damn cuts is FANTASTIC.

Now we can tune like every other big power platform in the world.

[MarkyMark]

SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.

Now we just needs cams.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Wow you have really outdone yourself this time Randy with this post. Not only have you pointed out the obvious, you have also for no reason shamelessly attacked the competition when they weren't even mentioned or referenced previously in this thread. It is quite obvious if you have the FCF + Standback your not worried about your warranty and that you are looking to make big HP. So what was the point of this post? Oh wait it was to throw slime at the competition however you can manage to squeeze it in. Do CP-E, the readers of this forum, and yourself a favor and start conducting yourself in a professional manner. Your just making yourself look bad, and CP-E by way of association. Jordan and everyone else at CP-E manages to conduct themselves in a very professional and friendly manner and i think you are doing them a disservice by the way you act here.

I gaurantee that ANY AP user, with a BT, would eventually want this on their protune. EVERY SINGLE ONE!!! Do you think cobb is gonna make them sign a stupid waiver, after they put a BT on their car? To come into this thread and insinuate that cpe is doing something dangerous is ignorant, and a shallow attempt to manipulate peoples emotions about this groundbreaking advancement on our cars.

I wont take advice on my "professional" attitude either. CPE is well aware of the fact that i defend them against biased statements from AP users over their tuning solution. they appreciate that there is someone to actually stand up to the nonsense. they dont want to get involved with the mudslinging, yes.... thats why they employ me. It gets slung on both sides, and they dont like taking it laying down.

Bottom line is that "professionally" it is my job to promote their product, run their product, sell their product, and defend their product. And that includes defending it from random posts like yours that make fuel cut sound like a good thing.... mostly because you still have it on your ots maps.

Shortly, IM SURE, that Cobb will offer this option as well. First, they need to figure out why their BT tunes lose power however. Id say thats priority number one. Then dialing out fuel cuts makes sense. Not before.

Originally Posted by bova80 funny that yet there are attacks on the AP that this has been done on the AP for about month now or more. it may not be completely disabled like cp-e has done but it has been resolved, so i'm sure it could be disabled if they wanted it to be. call me an AP fanboy all you want, i just don't want you to think they struck gold. and yeah i'm sure i'll have to hear how many times cp-e dynoed above the AP but i'm on both sides. just waiting for jordan to get me some v3 maps.

Im sure the AP will offer this option at some point in the future... probably with streettuner. Its what the public will demand. And trust me... once you get to the higher power levels..... these cuts are friggin everywhere.

[Laloosh]

Finally some good news, now lets hope that it makes some power!

[dadasracecar]

Won't make any power but it'll keep all those power mods from being held back by the ecu. Sky is the limit now...

[Laloosh]

i meant lets hope a ms3 makes the power of any other car with a bt set up on it. I dont want to see 24 psi 360whp lol

[aaronc7]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Won't make any power but it'll keep all those power mods from being held back by the ecu. Sky is the limit now...

except for when you go BT without buildings internals and you launch a rod into orbit

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh i meant lets hope a ms3 makes the power of any other car with a bt set up on it. I dont want to see 24 psi 360whp lol

i made 350 at 18psi this spring. i think youre car made more power than you gave it credit for. dynoing it in the temps you did, was a waste of time. you probably were closer to 400, considering where whoosh was on his awd.

[Meder]

Originally Posted by palerider i am a sales man. no shit. thats why i pay for this subforum. the company i represent is now offering a solution(that im going to sell...lol), to make our ecu as tunable as every other big power platform in the aftermarket community. the usefulness of a safety fuel cut, that doesnt save motors, but only limits power, and creates massive roadblocks for making that power after 2 years is now gone. there is NO drawback. if there was a drawback.... wed see kpro dialing in fuel cuts for big power hondas. wed see fuel cuts on srt4s. wed see fuel cuts on evos and stis. this is a mazda thing. it sucks and now its gone. NOW... if youre going to question it. (and ive only seen that in here from AP users). then you can stfu and get out. In fact... if you have been a vocal AP user, and you dont have a technical question. i really dont even want to see you in here. why? because im going to be selling this and i dont want some stupid, ignorant, biased opinion of why a goddam fuel cut should exist in our ecus, just because Cobb left it in your ots flash. its bad for my business, when ignorant shit like that gets posted in a thread like this. it wouldnt surprise me a bit that cobb may be capable of dialing it out... but it wouldnt surprise me a bit if they couldnt either. thats for the cobb subforum. in this forum, where going for big power has been a focus, gettting rid of these damn cuts is FANTASTIC. Now we can tune like every other big power platform in the world.

No one said anything about cobb but you. I asked a question about cpes new flash, nothing more. You're pretty aggressive when it comes to this cpe is king bullshit here on the forums, but when I read through all these posts I really dont see any reason for you to go biting peoples heads off. Cpe answered my question, and I understand what they are doing here. Maybe this cut isnt useful, who knows, we only asked some questions regarding the flash. I am not sure why you're making these silly post like someone is attacking you or cpe.


This is a step forward for our platform and I dont think any of this progress should be held back by the silly cobb vs cpe arguments.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by Meder No one said anything about cobb but you. I asked a question about cpes new flash, nothing more. You're pretty aggressive when it comes to this cpe is king bullshit here on the forums, but when I read through all these posts I really dont see any reason for you to go biting peoples heads off. Cpe answered my question, and I understand what they are doing here. Maybe this cut isnt useful, who knows, we only asked some questions regarding the flash. I am not sure why you're making these silly post like someone is attacking you or cpe. This is a step forward for out platform and I dont think any of this progress should be held back by the silly cobb vs cpe arguments.

yet you perpetuate it by lecturing Randy.

[Meder]

Yes, I am as wrong as he is, but this could have been avoided completely. There was no reason for any of his comments and no one bashed cpe. The only one throwing punches was randy.

[RhoadBlock]

Awesome...how much is this gonna cost if we've got the SB2 + FCF??? I'm ready to ship my ECU to you guys asap!