Fellas, it's time to put on your big boy pants and make some real power <epic>

[SneakyP86]

Jordan I PM'd you about this last night when I first heard about this and am extemely interested maybe even to the point of driving up there to get it done.Just need to know when it will be available and the price.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Meder Yes, I am as wrong as he is, but this could have been avoided completely. There was no reason for any of his comments and no one bashed cpe. The only one throwing punches was randy.

actually this started when AP users, with no intention of ever running a CPE flash, came into this section lecturing CPE on how they should protect themselves from the "dangers" of making power on this car.

my post was clear. It had nothing to do with AP bashing. so i'll make it more clear.

its asinine to suggest that fuel cuts are necessary on this car just in case you get a shitty tune. ap, standback, unichip, piasini, xede, whatever. it makes no difference. its just a complication, that other platforms dont have to deal with.

I gaurantee the only people interested in keeping fuel cuts in the ecu will be some AP users, rookie standback users, or those in both categories intending on lower hp goals, with warranty still on their agenda. the bottom line is that most AP users who actually want a BT on the car, with a tune, will ineveitably ask for this as well. the ecu has too many nannies to tune out individually and still get right.

why not tune the car the way every other platform does. if you tune it safely, and the block can handle the power..... then why would you want a fuel cut in there. it just limits power. it doesnt do jack shit for safety at that point.

[Meder]

Originally Posted by palerider actually this started when AP users, with no intention of ever running a CPE flash, came into this section lecturing CPE on how they should protect themselves from the "dangers" of making power on this car. my post was clear. It had nothing to do with AP bashing. so i'll make it more clear. its asinine to suggest that fuel cuts are necessary on this car just in case you get a shitty tune. ap, standback, unichip, piasini, xede, whatever. it makes no difference. its just a complication, that other platforms dont have to deal with. I gaurantee the only people interested in keeping fuel cuts in the ecu will be some AP users, rookie standback users, or those in both categories intending on lower hp goals, with warranty still on their agenda. the bottom line is that most AP users who actually want a BT on the car, with a tune, will ineveitably ask for this as well. the ecu has too many nannies to tune out individually and still get right. why not tune the car the way every other platform does. if you tune it safely, and the block can handle the power..... then why would you want a fuel cut in there. it just limits power. it doesnt do jack shit for safety at that point..

I really did not view the guy(whoever he was) that asked about the disclaimer like that. He did not lecture the cpe guys at all imo. However its his post, so ill let him chime in on that.

It seems like it is possible to raise a few limits, but cpe suggest that its too complex and there are too many cuts within the mazda ecu so they decided to throw the fuel cut out. I am not so sure other cars just ditch the fuel cut, but I can see where cpe is coming from with for our cars. I can see how some big number subbies or hondas may ditch fuel cuts and what not, but not 400 and 500 whp cars. Either way, time will tell how this works out and its good for all of us speed owners. As someone said, the sky is now the limit until we find the next roadblock. Someone may be pushing 600 whp tomorrow for all we know! It will be an interesting year.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Meder I really did not view the guy(whoever he was) that asked about the disclaimer like that. He did not lecture the cpe guys at all imo. However its his post, so ill let him chime in on that. It seems like it is possible to raise a few limits, but cpe suggest that its too complex and there are too many cuts within the mazda ecu so they decided to throw the fuel cut out. I am not so sure other cars just ditch the fuel cut, but I can see where cpe is coming from with for our cars. I can see how some big number subbies or hondas may ditch fuel cuts and what not, but not 400 and 500 whp cars. Either way, time will tell how this works out and its good for all of us speed owners. As someone said, the sky is now the limit until we find the next roadblock. Someone may be pushing 600 whp tomorrow for all we know! It will be an interesting year.

jumping jacksons insinuation was clear. hes a vocal ap user who dumped the standback for an ap. good for him, but i know his agenda. it was to make this wonderful new advance appear "unsafe" or "dangerous". as usual for the ap guys.... its "not the prefered way to tune". im sick of that garbage. if id made a similar post in the cobb subforum i would have been jumped for all hell. thats why i stay the hell out of there, and have for months.

as the AP starts making power past a few basic boltons... they'll see why cpe dialed it all out. remember... initially Cobb said weather wasnt an issue, they said fuel pumps/ pressure wasnt an issue. as the AP gradually makes more power, they will realize that setting limits "way back" on the ecu on all the different cuts is pointless, and ineffective. if you are making big power, you want as few restrictions as possible. think standalone here. that was gonna be the next step, if cpe didnt get this done. do you think we would have programmed in fuel cuts to a standalone map? do you think we would have modified tables based on temp change? do you think we would have given the car feul cuts for torque limits being exceeded...lol

its nuts. just eliminate it, simplify it, and tune it responsibly the first time like everybody else.

btw... meder... i replaced my editted quote in your post to more accurately represent my feelings on this. shitty tunes can come from anywhere. if i made a mistake, it was to not mention every other tuning solution besides the AP. the AP has shown they can dial a car in pretty well... especially with some of the protunes weve seen. not to mention... ive seen some piggy tunes that were straight jacked up. a bad tune is the only reason to beg for the cuts to remain.

[Darksun280]

You know whats funny I just realized why you have that picture with the two guns drawn as your avatar lol.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 You know whats funny I just realized why you have that picture with the two guns drawn as your avatar lol.

lol.

500, 600whp is gonna get done... and its gonna be by cpe. i dont want to hear crap about "the preferred way to tune".

[killa cam]

cp-e ftmfw! i wish i had a BT car now lol... i had faith that lou would figure this out... i can't wait to see what kind of power robbie puts down...

[08.5TRS3]

Lou is the fuckin man ... congrats cpe and this is a GOOD thing for us for sure!! Now get back up here Randy and get reflashed and put done some good numbers lol .. I know robbie is happy lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by 08.5TRS3 Lou is the fuckin man ... congrats cpe and this is a GOOD thing for us for sure!! Now get back up here Randy and get reflashed and put done some good numbers lol .. I know robbie is happy lol

robbys got to be giddy silly happy. the soonest i can get back up there is the weekend of the 13th. thats gonna be perfect tho, cause theyll be able to work most of the kinks out on robbies car anyway. i think at this point its obvious that im gonna lag behind whatever happens with that car.

no problem... monkey see, monkey do. the biggest part of it is the holy grail that many said would take months, years, or never to overcome.... well it just got bumrushed.

so at this point.... youd need throttle flash, cut flash, maf flash, map flash, new map sensor, new maf housing..... and then the skys the limit.

what am i forgeting that could still stand in the way, other than small kinks?

maybe the load calc could still be worked with if we dont make the power wed "expect" from a certain boost level on a 2.3l engine. id say thats it tho.

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 You know whats funny I just realized why you have that picture with the two guns drawn as your avatar lol.

I swear it doesn't look like a still from "Palerider" though. It reminds me of a still from "The Outlaw Josie Wales."

BTW, Palerider... I have been following threads on this web-site for about six months now. I have done minor mods to my car so far, but am saving major mods for when my warranty no longer exists on my MS3. (only 60,000 miles to go.) I have studied the advantages/disadvantages of Cobb and CP-E in order to decide which route I want to go.

I have finally made up my mind. I am going with CP-E because of you. Not because of the things you say for CP-E, but only because I am about the biggest fan of Clint Eastwood westerns you will find.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Teacher I swear it doesn't look like a still from "Palerider" though. It reminds me of a still from "The Outlaw Josie Wales." BTW, Palerider... I have been following threads on this web-site for about six months now. I have done minor mods to my car so far, but am saving major mods for when my warranty no longer exists on my MS3. (only 60,000 miles to go.) I have studied the advantages/disadvantages of Cobb and CP-E in order to decide which route I want to go. I have finally made up my mind. I am going with CP-E because of you. Not because of the things you say for CP-E, but only because I am about the biggest fan of Clint Eastwood westerns you will find.

fixed...lol
now if only i can get haltech to use a shot of sondra locke for his.

[Teacher]

Is that a scene from when Megan was praying for help, when the "preacher" made his first appearance?

Anyway, back on topic. CP-E, thanks for the work you guys are doing. Looks like the sky is the limit for us.... well, maybe not the sky, but the strength of our engine internals. :-)

[jvoss65]

This is great news. I've got midlevel bolt ons and have to deal with fuel cut from time to time. I would have loved this before my last HPDE when my car was sputtering on the back straight. After explaining fuel cut to my instructor he said "you think someone would figure the ecu out". We're getting there.

[lidokrantz]

hot diggity dawgs for Lou, and the CP-E team, P3, fantastic news and breakthrough...makes me very glad i kept my car. Fuel cuts suck at any power level, so this is good news for all.
Crazy Man's car is at 420whp or better.....yes indeed, i am very happy for Robbie !! and Randy and his car as well.....time for a tuner magazine article to get this platform some recognition, the time has come.

[crazyitalian041]

grats to the geniuses at cp-e and p3 for all the hard work done on my car and thanks guys...

[crazyitalian041]

and for the record, im honored by being sponsored by these guys (both cp-e and p3) for all the hard work they have done for EVERYONE in this community.

[RUMBLEFISH]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 and for the record, im honored by being sponsored by these guys (both cp-e and p3) for all the hard work they have done for EVERYONE in this community.

Amen to that.

[bova]

Originally Posted by palerider jumping jacksons insinuation was clear. hes a vocal ap user who dumped the standback for an ap. good for him, but i know his agenda. it was to make this wonderful new advance appear "unsafe" or "dangerous". as usual for the ap guys.... its "not the prefered way to tune". im sick of that garbage. if id made a similar post in the cobb subforum i would have been jumped for all hell. thats why i stay the hell out of there, and have for months. as the AP starts making power past a few basic boltons... they'll see why cpe dialed it all out. remember... initially Cobb said weather wasnt an issue, they said fuel pumps/ pressure wasnt an issue. as the AP gradually makes more power, they will realize that setting limits "way back" on the ecu on all the different cuts is pointless, and ineffective. if you are making big power, you want as few restrictions as possible. think standalone here. that was gonna be the next step, if cpe didnt get this done. do you think we would have programmed in fuel cuts to a standalone map? do you think we would have modified tables based on temp change? do you think we would have given the car feul cuts for torque limits being exceeded...lol its nuts. just eliminate it, simplify it, and tune it responsibly the first time like everybody else. btw... meder... i replaced my editted quote in your post to more accurately represent my feelings on this. shitty tunes can come from anywhere. if i made a mistake, it was to not mention every other tuning solution besides the AP. the AP has shown they can dial a car in pretty well... especially with some of the protunes weve seen. not to mention... ive seen some piggy tunes that were straight jacked up. a bad tune is the only reason to beg for the cuts to remain.

funny how you say you stay out of there but you commented on an AP post just today.....hmmm....oh well. as long as someone figures this shit out.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by bova80 funny how you say you stay out of there but you commented on an AP post just today.....hmmm....oh well. as long as someone figures this shit out.

good point detective. except it was a cpe post i was responding to.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider fixed...lol now if only i can get haltech to use a shot of sondra locke for his.

I pretty the little dog, big bite avatar

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech I pretty the little dog, big bite avatar

lol... i figured youd like that.

whats your thought on eliminating all cut? did you add it in on your ford just in case you fucked up the rest of the tune?

[skeeter149]

honest opinion of a ap user, i will never get to anything above 300whp personally. but honestly i give cp-e the credit they deserve for having the balls and the knowledge to figure out how to make this car tunable. if i had the resources, i would be all over this. but i wont lie i dont and wont be going. but i am glad someone is trying to make this car all it can be and the fact its a company that has turned out nothing but quality parts is just icing. i respect cp-e and they are one of the first companies i look to and did business with on this car. like the saying goes "its a dirty job and somebody(cp-e) had to do it".

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider lol... i figured youd like that. whats your thought on eliminating all cut? did you add it in on your ford just in case you fucked up the rest of the tune?

Fords dont have any kind of fuel cut other then over reving. I will be honest, we RAISE our RPM fuel cut limiter way above anything a mis-shift could obtain. On the truck mine is set to 7500 rpm and on my Cobras, 9000 rpm. When you run big boost on Fords, the last thing you want is fuel being cut... For instance, say you are launching hard out of the pocket at the track. You are sitting at 4100 RPM on slicks, boosting about 12 PSI... You leave on the third yellow and dump the clutch. The car bolts out of the hole and you go for the powershift to second and miss... your WOT and the last thing you want is fuel cut to ruin your day. Ive seen it happen and was sitting next to a 250 shot progressive controlled LS1 that hit fuel cut on a misshift and kaplooey, no more block.

We do the same with nitrous. Fuel cut is a very nasty situation. If people need a fail safe... use your fuckin foot... I say, eliminate any kind of fuel cut possible in the car.. It just proves bad joo joo on these cars. Get rid of it or any fail safes, for that matter.

[phailerider]

well said, and i couldnt agree more. even with a ton less experience with these things... i just cant understand how cutting fuel to an engine midstroke when an arbitrary algorithm is reached can be a good thing. thats especially true, if every thing is tuned in perfectly as the cut takes place.

and its not like this happens when all hell is breaking loose either. we see guys logs where their fuel prssure is dropping below 1000psi and no fuel cut.... and then lean spots on partial throttle and no fuel cut.

the cuts are a complete utter waste and cause more trouble and potential harm than they solve. heck.... what in the hell DO they SOLVE? anything?

thanks for posting that.

Get rid of the fuel cut. Its a waste of electricity. Randy....you have NO need to defend yourself any longer in this thread. To do so is a waste of your time (and electricity). You have bigger and better things to waste your argumentative skills on.

[JumpingJackson]

I wasnt insinuating anything Randy or attacking you or CP-E, I simply said its not for everyone, Jordan himself came out and said that. Then you go around and attacking the Cobb for no reason. No one was attacking CP-E or even their fuel cut elimination. Its a tool, it can be used for good or bad it all depends on how its applied. The fuel cut saved my ass this summer wheni was doing pulls doing a street tune and my wastegate solenoid tube popped off of the turbo causing me to overboost. I definately agree the fuel cut can/does get in the way of making power, but in my case it turned out to be helpful in that particular instance. If you think thats a biased opinion then id have to disagree with you.

I like to think im pretty neutral. Your the one who started attacking the competition and i called you out on it. If you think I have an agenda your wrong. I have *never* attacked CP-E or their product. I can state my opinion on a particular facet of CP-E's product and not be biased and you can disagree with me and not be biased. I very well could be wrong and talking out of my ass, i freely admit this.
But attacking Cobb out of no where like that is DEFINATELY going ellicit a negative response from people who read it and cause people to think you are biased when you go out of your way to try to make Cobb look bad on multiple occasions. Ive worked with both Cobb and CP-E and have an immense amount of respect for both companies and their employee's. Ive defended CP-E on MSF,MS6Club,M247 multiple times.

[bykeryder4life]

this is super cool what you guys are doing, I am nowhere near as modded as most but eventually this car will be, and it will be nice to have good tuning options like what you guys are offering and producing. Thumbs up CPE

[builthatch]

it's been said that the cut doesn't protect anything and is totally useless. it's been said because the theory is that whatever is going to happen, will happen so fast that the cut will be too late.

i don't agree with this.

if a setup wants to continually overboost, the cut will prevent that from occuring.

why would mazda have included it in the first place?

so, as mentioned, while this is a great step for the guys who are going for bonzo numbers on a FWD (don't get that, but that is a different stories), i think that adjustable cut would have more of a universal appeal.

but, please, do not misinterpret this as not being enthused for the attention that cp-e is giving the platform. i've said it before, anyone...ANYONE, who is paying attention to this platform deserves much pr0ps. cp-e is def in that group!

'hatch

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Zoomies MPS3 Its such a pitty that us aussie blokes cant get our hands on CPE flashes easily, i mean there is no way i want to ship my ECU halfway around the world.... If only your aussie distributer (MPS garage) could do theses flashes then we'd be happy as a pig in shit.

Actually, that may not be so far fetched. Lou's flashing setup isn't very complicated, and he's automated the process so that even a monkey like myself can do it. I'll have to ask if building another example is possible.

I can't promise that anything will move with lightning speed, but I'll talk this over with Lou and see if we can't work something out!

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Sweet. Me want. How much will it cost us if we have the SB+FCF?

Yes! I forgot to mention...

If you've purchased the FCF already, then you can send in your ECU and we'll flash the fuel cut eliminator for $35. We should have this option up on the website soon.

Originally Posted by Laloosh i meant lets hope a ms3 makes the power of any other car with a bt set up on it. I dont want to see 24 psi 360whp lol

Chris, it's time to show people what DI can do

Originally Posted by SneakyP86 Jordan I PM'd you about this last night when I first heard about this and am extemely interested maybe even to the point of driving up there to get it done.Just need to know when it will be available and the price.

Hey Louis! I did get the PM, but I've been in and out of the shop. I'll be in tomorrow morning however and I'll shoot you some info back.

Originally Posted by builthatch it's been said that the cut doesn't protect anything and is totally useless. it's been said because the theory is that whatever is going to happen, will happen so fast that the cut will be too late. i don't agree with this. if a setup wants to continually overboost, the cut will prevent that from occuring. why would mazda have included it in the first place? so, as mentioned, while this is a great step for the guys who are going for bonzo numbers on a FWD (don't get that, but that is a different stories), i think that adjustable cut would have more of a universal appeal. but, please, do not misinterpret this as not being enthused for the attention that cp-e is giving the platform. i've said it before, anyone...ANYONE, who is paying attention to this platform deserves much pr0ps. cp-e is def in that group! 'hatch

Thanks for adding to the discussion Hatch. Your support and your comments are much appreciated!

I think another part of the problem with adjustable fuel cuts is that there's no easy way for the end-user to tune them. How is a customer going to change the fuel cut limits, or even know which ones to change? If they get a fuel cut, how will they know what the trigger actually was? Was the trigger was indicative of a legitimate issue, or just a quirk like the cold weather cut? When you start digging it really becomes a slippery slope!

What's really unfortunate, is that I can't bring you over to our shop and show you Lou's test setup. I wish I could show everyone here what I saw the other day. We ran some pretty cool tests on the fuel cut, and we really exposed how poor the logic behind it is. In fact, there's a lot that the ECU does that's just downright peculiar and repeatable. In the past, some people have painted the Mazda ECU as some advanced blessing from Mazda, but from our experience it looks like a rush job. We'll be able to demonstrate some of these things in the near future (I hope), but until then people will just have to take our word on it, which I understand is difficult for many.

So there are two options, and I guess our stance at the moment is that there's no need for three. Option one, is to use our SB and bolt-ons and leave the fuel cut function alone. The vast majority of our customers have gone this route with great success. I see no reason to eliminate the fuel cut in this case. Option two, is to eliminate the function completely, and I would recommend this for folks that aim to make real big power, or that have what are considered unexplainable fuel cuts.

So there may be a market out there that would appreciate adjustable cuts, but there just doesn't seem to be justification for the effort. To be clear, the real impetus for the fuel cut fix effort wasn't to help the street guys out, but really to take this platform to the next level. There's no reason why the MazdaSPEEDs shouldn't be regarded as highly as the STi's and Evo's as far as tuner cars go. The DISI fueling system has so much to offer, and I very strongly believe that we have only scratched the surface. The way I look at it is this fix was a puzzle piece required to get to the next level that also happens to offer some relief to a small portion of this community.

[Demi]

I dunno, I would be willing to do it just to get rid of the cold weather cut if the price is right. Im glad I waited on the full control flash! Now i can get both at once. Seems like the cut would be terrible on the tranny. Its fairly violent and hate being afraid to step on the gas because it might be too cold out.

[BlackMS3]

I've learned not to get excited over shit on this car until the numbers are thrown down.

I'll get excited when there's dyno proof.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by Haltech Fords dont have any kind of fuel cut other then over reving. I will be honest, we RAISE our RPM fuel cut limiter way above anything a mis-shift could obtain. On the truck mine is set to 7500 rpm and on my Cobras, 9000 rpm. When you run big boost on Fords, the last thing you want is fuel being cut... For instance, say you are launching hard out of the pocket at the track. You are sitting at 4100 RPM on slicks, boosting about 12 PSI... You leave on the third yellow and dump the clutch. The car bolts out of the hole and you go for the powershift to second and miss... your WOT and the last thing you want is fuel cut to ruin your day. Ive seen it happen and was sitting next to a 250 shot progressive controlled LS1 that hit fuel cut on a misshift and kaplooey, no more block. We do the same with nitrous. Fuel cut is a very nasty situation. If people need a fail safe... use your fuckin foot... I say, eliminate any kind of fuel cut possible in the car.. It just proves bad joo joo on these cars. Get rid of it or any fail safes, for that matter.

When I had my Mustang it did not have a fuel cut that you could hit. On every car that I have ever worked on that fuel cut it was always bad a lead to blown engines. The reason is that there is a split second that the car goes very lean, that is especially bad when you are bouncing on and off of a fuel cut trying to get down the track. Especially with nitrous.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by BlackMS3 I've learned not to get excited over shit on this car until the numbers are thrown down. I'll get excited when there's dyno proof.

you should be excited as this flash will allow pushing the car's limits without worry of the ecu ending the party
the no cut flash isn't a dyno before and aft mod alone...what you get out of it depends on your mods and tune

[Demi]

Originally Posted by whoosh you should be excited as this flash will allow pushing the car's limits without worry of the ecu ending the party the no cut flash isn't a dyno before and aft mod alone...what you get out of it depends on your mods and tune

True enough but there are a few BT guys that have been tuned to the ragged edge of fuel cut, and gone no further strictly because of it. Seems to me that now we can see where the fuel system really gives up. Their dyno numbers is what we are all wanting to see. What ever happened to your fuel volume mod? This is a amazing step, but it makes me nervous too, we are always chasing the next roadblock. I hope the next one isnt something crazier.

[DeadWayt]

So this is why you guys have been slackin' on my Standback.

No more excuses now. Chop, chop!

[Haltech]

What dyno proof? There is no horsepower to be gained just by eliminating it. What you are obtaining is the ability not to easily blow your engine. What better failsafe is there?

i believe, that if you kept the car at stock boost, Mazda's preemptive plan to fuel cut here, there and under this particular condition, works. However, when you change the boost levels, add more timing, etc, all of this shit flies out there window.

Ive never seen this in the vehicles ive tuned. Mazda definitely gets the big thumbs up for the most complicated ECU tuning to date. Their strategies make absolutely no sense to anyone but their engineers. Maybe they were scared of Direct Inject and wanted enough fail safes to protect their asses in stock form, who knows. For the enthusiast, this shit is harmful to our power goals and it needs to go.

[phailerider]

^^^ were you able to tune it out working with Christian.. what is cobbs capability here? can both companys do this now?

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider ^^^ were you able to tune it out working with Christian.. what is cobbs capability here? can both companys do this now?

Theres a few things he has discovered but isnt willing to publicly announce. They are allowing the end user to remove CEL's for things such as 02 related CEL's and such. Im working on bypassing the stock MAP and going to an alternative 3 bar map. i think the 2.5 bar map imposes a few problems for us and instead of eliminating the whole thing, its easier to pull the wires off the stock sensor and move them onto a 3 bar map that is T-ee'd in on the manifold. You still need the stock sensor due to it also being the BAT sensor.

My main concern is fueling and the MAP.

[Demi]

Originally Posted by Haltech What dyno proof? There is no horsepower to be gained just by eliminating it.

No no, i think (but ive been wrong before) that people are asking about people that were limited by hitting cut. The BT crowd. It doesnt add any HP but if someone hit a wall because of cut I want to know where they are getting to now?

[louloulou]

Word!

Originally Posted by Haltech Mazda definitely gets the big thumbs up for the most complicated ECU tuning to date. Their strategies make absolutely no sense to anyone but their engineers.