Official Release: 400hp and beyond...

[ATE BALLER]

God damn it! Everytime I get pissed off at you guys, you come and make a post like this that makes me like you again! WTF?! I just got rid of my last cpe part too! Well, the dp wasn't going to work with the v-band on the turbo anyway, so I kind of needed to. Good thing they still hold good value, right?

Anyway, could you share some math on how you figure the di fuel system still has plenty of room beyond what robbie put down? Considering the sizes of the orifices in the lines, the injectors, pumps, ect... Have you considered that might be why it's not making more power with more boost? These theories aren't just rediculas speculation with no backing you know. They have held true and been solved on other platforms. Educated guesses with *some* mathematical evidence behind them.

I understand you guys pulled fuel on the top, which does two things that I can think of; leans out (which of coarse makes more power), and takes less of what the cdfp crams in the rail (leaving more there to last a tad longer, like rationing sort to speak). But, at some boost pressure, some CFM of air, the stock fuel system just shouldn't be able to meet the demand. What do you plan to do then, and when will you determine that to be the case? I just hope it's not at the expense of someone's several thousand dollar built motor.

BTW, I'm pretty sure I know what turbo you guys used Unfortunately I have to settle with a 60 trim (for now) since I needed one like yesterday, lol.

[lidokrantz]

indeed, that manifold is one of the nicest mods out there..I no it;s been said many times....but Thank You CP-E for your hard work and excellent advice you have thrown at me(Jordan).......Although i drive like an old lady most of the time, i very much wanted to and still do want tot make some good power on my car..... and Jordan a couple of times when asked did mention to keep thing on conservative side especially if its a DD...and luckily i listened as my car is still running strong. But with the new advances and breakthroughs with Robbie's car i am excited again that with a strong bank account this car can be made better and safe....as mentioned. Build it first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best piece of advice CP-E and P3 have mentioned to me...
What a delight to read about this success!!!

[shadesofgray19]

One question, What is the AFR of the tune?

[m4tic]

this is all awesome n shit..... but what about us that are making the medium bucks?

[yang_jackson]

Originally Posted by bmorrisj this is all awesome n shit..... but what about us that are making the medium bucks?

we are sticking under 300hp. at least i am...... until i find a better paying job.

[LBV]

Any details available on the engine? Specifically, what rods and pistons?

Great post too Jordan!

[crazyitalian041]

cp and pauter.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by shadesofgray19 One question, What is the AFR of the tune?

11.9ish

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER God damn it! Everytime I get pissed off at you guys, you come and make a post like this that makes me like you again! WTF?! I just got rid of my last cpe part too! Well, the dp wasn't going to work with the v-band on the turbo anyway, so I kind of needed to. Good thing they still hold good value, right? Anyway, could you share some math on how you figure the di fuel system still has plenty of room beyond what robbie put down? Considering the sizes of the orifices in the lines, the injectors, pumps, ect... Have you considered that might be why it's not making more power with more boost? These theories aren't just rediculas speculation with no backing you know. They have held true and been solved on other platforms. Educated guesses with *some* mathematical evidence behind them. I understand you guys pulled fuel on the top, which does two things that I can think of; leans out (which of coarse makes more power), and takes less of what the cdfp crams in the rail (leaving more there to last a tad longer, like rationing sort to speak). But, at some boost pressure, some CFM of air, the stock fuel system just shouldn't be able to meet the demand. What do you plan to do then, and when will you determine that to be the case? I just hope it's not at the expense of someone's several thousand dollar built motor. BTW, I'm pretty sure I know what turbo you guys used Unfortunately I have to settle with a 60 trim (for now) since I needed one like yesterday, lol.

You're correct about the fuel system. We will reach the point when the system can no longer deliver the required fuel. At this point we've got a ways to go. The injectors are not cause for concern at this point. Lou measured the cam lobe for the hpfp and determined it was larger than the VW version. That means more displacement of the pump internals and consequently more fuel - ~600 chp worth. When we max the fuel system out, everyone will know. We're very curious ourselves. If I wasn't stuck babysitting, I'd be figuring it out rather than typing this...

[Godspeed]

I'm looking forward to your turbo kit...great job CPE!

[SharkDiver]

Thats good news,Its nice to see someone over 400hp.Now I want to see some low 12s 1/4 mile drag slips...Is that to much to ask?

Im looking forward to having a cp/pauter setup in my car in the next month or so..

[boosted3]

Congrads guys i appreciate the time to explain and give us all a idea.So ur saying with forged rods and pistons the motor should be safe for a bigger turbo and a nice tune.

[crazyitalian041]

Originally Posted by boosted3 Congrads guys i appreciate the time to explain and give us all a idea.So ur saying with forged rods and pistons the motor should be safe for a bigger turbo and a nice tune.

\should\ I dont believe in just throwing them into a motor thats been driven for 30,000 miles. I think machine work is a good idea. Thats just me though.

[RocketScientist]

I guess this is one more big congrats for CP-e in the past few weeks. Shows what good, methodical engineering can do. Just hope by the time I get my mod together everything's not totally obsolete. Now how about the intake side? Heads next? When does the crank blow out? Keep it up, we'll all benefit from your work even if we're only going for a wimpy 350 or so.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by shadesofgray19 One question, What is the AFR of the tune?

Looks like 11.9 and a great tune.

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 cp and pauter.

Compression ratio?

Originally Posted by dadasracecar 11.9ish

Thanks.

Originally Posted by SharkDiver Thats good news,Its nice to see someone over 400hp.Now I want to see some low 12s 1/4 mile drag slips...Is that to much to ask? Im looking forward to having a cp/pauter setup in my car in the next month or so..

This is what I want to see as well, this will set the record for sure.


With all that said here are a few more questions.

Cams?
Head work? If so, what?
You have claimed that you have looked at the cam crank with monitoring the injectors with the 0-scope (I have as well) and you problably noticed that the window turns to crap around 7700 RPM (very little to zero time for any fuel to get injected) Does this mean that we are going to be rev limited to something way under that, or is there going to be another fix for this?
With the injectors running at 78% and based that you are running much higher pressures are you calculating that into the open and close rates (takes more time to close an injector running at 1800 psi then one running at 80 psi). You also have to deal with the input output power that drives the injector (you should know what I am talking about). This is what we have seen in our testing with the o-scope running into actual open and close times (not duty cycle). I monitored this based off fuel pressure pulse and injector open and close time then charted them based on cyl one for a reference. This is why I am questioning the duty cycle because the DI systems don't have what I would call a traditional injector duty cycle.
Are you running a booster pump?
Meth/WI?

This is about all I can come up with right now but I have a ton of questions because I gave up on the big turbo due to the need for a complete fuel solution (new lines, RR regulator, feed lines to the turbo, return line to the tank, ect ect. If there is an easy solution to this, I am all game in getting one for my car and running the piss out of it. Please a little more info please, thanks.

[crazyitalian041]

Stock CR.

[killa cam]

Originally Posted by ptperformance 1) Compression ratio? 2) Cams? 3) Head work? If so, what? 4)You have claimed that you have looked at the cam crank with monitoring the injectors with the 0-scope (I have as well) and you problably noticed that the window turns to crap around 7700 RPM (very little to zero time for any fuel to get injected) Does this mean that we are going to be rev limited to something way under that, or is there going to be another fix for this? 5) With the injectors running at 78% and based that you are running much higher pressures are you calculating that into the open and close rates (takes more time to close an injector running at 1800 psi then one running at 80 psi). You also have to deal with the input output power that drives the injector (you should know what I am talking about). This is what we have seen in our testing with the o-scope running into actual open and close times (not duty cycle). I monitored this based off fuel pressure pulse and injector open and close time then charted them based on cyl one for a reference. This is why I am questioning the duty cycle because the DI systems don't have what I would call a traditional injector duty cycle. 6) Are you running a booster pump? 7) Meth/WI? 8) This is about all I can come up with right now but I have a ton of questions because I gave up on the big turbo due to the need for a complete fuel solution (new lines, RR regulator, feed lines to the turbo, return line to the tank, ect ect. If there is an easy solution to this, I am all game in getting one for my car and running the piss out of it. Please a little more info please, thanks.

1) 9.5:1
2) stock
3) none
4) how much time that is available is a relative thing. with the right injectors and pumps you can put 150hp worth of fuel in the cylinder in a couple ms. and being that redline is well below 7700rpm, i don't see why this matters. bottom line, there IS enough time. the car has no problem keeping it slightly rich at 400hp using stock injectors!
5) this whole paragraph hurt my brain. i have a deep understanding of the car, yet i don't understand what the fuck your saying, or what your trying to say. the injectors are at 78% right now, they can go to 100%. does that answer your question? need not worry about half the shit you just said here.
6) no, stock
7) no
8) it looks as if you can easily support 400 hp with an upgraded CDFP. no need to buy all that crap your talking about just yet. since this is possible, i encourage you to build one immediately and try tuning it with the AP since you are a fan of that tuning solution. THAT will be interesting.

[crazyitalian041]

I do have a 3 angle i think cameron.

[superskaterxes]

i need a yes or no on this one......

can ATR do the same thing as CPE has one to make 400WHP with identical mods?

if your confused im asking if there is something else in the ecu that CPE has changed that the ATR software cannot.

[killa cam]

there is no change to the ecu other than the standard flash package: full throttle, big MAF, no cut. it's the same flash that it has been for the last couple months.

can ATR do it? it is yet to be seen... so as of now, the answer is no.

[martyxattack]

at least about 10gs to get 400 horsepower. yes this is great news

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by killa cam 1) 9.5:1 2) stock 3) none 4) how much time that is available is a relative thing. with the right injectors and pumps you can put 150hp worth of fuel in the cylinder in a couple ms. and being that redline is well below 7700rpm, i don't see why this matters. bottom line, there IS enough time. the car has no problem keeping it slightly rich at 400hp using stock injectors! 5) this whole paragraph hurt my brain. i have a deep understanding of the car, yet i don't understand what the fuck your saying, or what your trying to say. the injectors are at 78% right now, they can go to 100%. does that answer your question? need not worry about half the shit you just said here. 6) no, stock 7) no 8) it looks as if you can easily support 400 hp with an upgraded CDFP. no need to buy all that crap your talking about just yet. since this is possible, i encourage you to build one immediately and try tuning it with the AP since you are a fan of that tuning solution. THAT will be interesting.

I will ask you one question, do you know how the injectors cycle on the DI motors? Its not like a conventional system. If you knew this, then you would know what I am talking about. 78% percent on DI application is not the same as on a convention application. There are 2 signals that get sent to open and close the injector. I am not going to get into this with you if you don't know what I am talking about, it would be like fighting with a retard.

Thank you for the additional answers, it should be interesting to see what the car does at the track.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes i need a yes or no on this one...... can ATR do the same thing as CPE has one to make 400WHP with identical mods? if your confused im asking if there is something else in the ecu that CPE has changed that the ATR software cannot.

I would have to say yes because there is nothing additional that CPE has control over that the ATR software cannot do. Unless there is something that is being hid from us in the build. From what I can see, there is nothing so it should be interesting to see what the car does at the track for MPH.

[ptperformance]

Ahh, shit. Randy, I just saw that this is the wrong thread. Delete what you find necessary, sorry. I am out.

[killa cam]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I will ask you one question, do you know how the injectors cycle on the DI motors? Its not like a conventional system. If you knew this, then you would know what I am talking about. 78% percent on DI application is not the same as on a convention application. There are 2 signals that get sent to open and close the injector. I am not going to get into this with you if you don't know what I am talking about, it would be like fighting with a retard. Thank you for the additional answers, it should be interesting to see what the car does at the track.

yes i do know how injectors cycle. 78% DC isn't the same as conventional, correct.

on this car you have a window that you are allowed to inject. you can only inject fuel during intake and compression strokes. if you were to inject the full length of the intake and compression stroke, DC would be 100%. we are only at 78%. the signals the injectors get to open and close does not matter. i am telling you that we are at 78% DC. that means we have some injector left to make more power.

keep in mind that the injector is at 78% at the current power level at 11.9afr. that means if we lean it out a little more (i think 12.5 is safe, we can maybe go even leaner if EGTs don't skyrocket) than the injector DC goes down (less fuel used). we have plenty of injector left.

[killa cam]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I would have to say yes because there is nothing additional that CPE has control over that the ATR software cannot do. Unless there is something that is being hid from us in the build. From what I can see, there is nothing so it should be interesting to see what the car does at the track for MPH.

there is nothing hidden about the build now. we just found a combo that works. like i said, this coulda been done months ago.

Why has ATR yet to produce a high HP car? they may be able to control things, so is the problem the people doing the tuning? whats the issue here? you are a big fan of the AP. so why don't you be the first one to break 400hp with ATR? i encourage you to do this build.

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by killa cam there is nothing hidden about the build now. we just found a combo that works. like i said, this coulda been done months ago. Why has ATR yet to produce a high HP car? they may be able to control things, so is the problem the people doing the tuning? whats the issue here? you are a big fan of the AP. so why don't you be the first one to break 400hp with ATR? i encourage you to do this build.

If you would like to send me a forged motor with your special combo of parts for free I'd be more than happy to get it tuned with ATR. Not all of us are sponsored or can afford that shit right now.

[shadesofgray19]

ATR has been out for not even two weeks, so trying to compare power numbers with tuning software that has been out for 2 years is ludicrous. I don't follow this forum much, but has anyone even attempted a protune and dyno with the AP yet? So I would hold of judgement until then. I would think that you could conceivably do it with either the standback or atr, since atr allows for adjustments to MAF, throttle plate, and cut values. Unless you have worked with both, I don't think you can say that the atr cannot do the same things. Since you have the car and would like to show how much better the SB is than the AP, why don't you try it out. Now that would be interesting.

If this is all about max power, then atr should be tried. Ultimately what it comes down to is sponsorship and you can't have an AP on a cp-e car.

[BaseballD2]

damn thats a nice turbo. 500 hp turbo full spool ~3500rpms thing must haul ass when the tires aren't spinning

[Fa5t]

Is the track day at MRI tomorrow? How late will you be down there?

[Grim]

Originally Posted by martyxattack at least about 10gs to get 400 horsepower. yes this is great news

This is why im getting rid of this car.plus a high hp fwd its no fun.Here i come evo

[Unoriginalusername]

Originally Posted by Grim This is why im getting rid of this car.plus a high hp fwd its no fun.Here i come evo

An Evo with just a flash will run 12.7 and 109 according to edmunds... that beats the record of any ms6 or ms3 thus far vs. the cost of getting an ms3 or 6 to that point let alone beyond.

Its great that the ms3 is slowly getting up there HP wise, but i agree the economics of it just don't make sense for so many people only be achieve that milestone and still be limited by the physics of fwd.... +1 135i or Evo etc.

[gsrtype1]

Yeah I love my car and I'm happy with what I have but I do wish my car was awd but nothing is perfect and our cars deliver alot for the money. I was lookin at an MR when I bought my car and I was looking at 8-15k more upfront with no mods... Yeah its awd but our car is still vary good and has a nicer interior.

[Darksun280]

Yes my minions fall in love with the triple diamonds

[Grim]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Yes my minions fall in love with the triple diamonds

I been in love with the 3 diamonds for a while,i just now have a chance to get one.

[I<3Groceries]

I'm most impressed with this power level, considering no WMI, 93 oct, and on a mid ninety degree day. This kinda shattered several molds.

What was the BAT like on the 408 fwhp dyno run?

[94jedi]

good stuff CPE!!! As always, you're leading the innovation on this platform!

[buddhabum]

I can haz 400whp?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Yes my minions fall in love with the triple diamonds

You must do a lot of reading

[Scatt Nasty]

i can haz 400whp on stock internals ?