Official Release: 400hp and beyond...

[Unoriginalusername]

Originally Posted by Scatt Nasty i can haz 400whp on stock internals ?

for a few weeks maybe yes

[medieval]

Thank you CPE.

One of the problems the Mazdaspeed has is reversion. Many are going down the route of running a larger compressor side turbo (ATP turbos) while still using the stock turbine configuration. To make it simple, the stock turbine A/R in relation to the compressor is causing some issues that many are not looking at. In layman's terms, you can only flow as much as the turbine will allow regardless of how big you get on the compressor. Since our motor is a 4 stroke, valve overlap is present. With that being said, so will reversion. This is why many are falling below the 400whp mark.

Manifold design:
A turbo uses the energy present in the exhaust pulse to produce boost, so the faster and more efficiently the manifold can deliver exhaust pulses from each cylinder to the turbo, the quicker the turbo will spool up and produce boost.
The idea behind keeping each exhaust pulse separate to the collector is to maximize efficiency to control and minimize the turbulence created when the exhaust pulses merge.

Uncontrolled turbulence equals lost energy. Lost energy is when the exhaust gas pulses lose their direction and cannot deliver full and controlled punch to the turbine.
A turbo manifold design that creates turbulence inside the manifold causes reversion, energy loss and increased exhaust gas temperatures. (The added heat will burn exhaust valves)
Reversion is a normal condition in a 4 stroke engine. It is most predominant in higher horsepower engines. When the piston reaches top dead center (TDC) on the exhaust stoke, there is valve overlap.
The exhaust valve remains open for a short period of time as the piston is going down on what is called the intake stroke. This causes a negative pressure pulse (vacuum) in the turbo manifold that is drawn back into the combustion cylinder (reversion).

The effects of reversion:

The engine becomes prone to detonation.
The engine power decreases due to charge contamination.
Charge contamination occurs when hot, thin exhaust is pumped back into the combustion chamber when the manifold cannot exhaust it efficiently. -properly.

Testing shows a log style manifold has roughly a 3-1 pressure ratio (3 psi of exhaust pressure Vs 1 psi of boost pressure)
Simply put, your exhaust pressure is much greater than your charge pressure (boost). During the overlap period, exhaust is forced back into the combustion chamber.

A 4-1 pyramid collector manifold is superior to a log manifold style, non-collector style, and cast manifolds for the simple fact that turbulence is limited to one point instead of two, maximizing the energy potential. This can result in faster turbo spool up, and potentially more energy to create boost.
Besides minimizing the lost energy, reducing turbulence also has another desirable effect: the creation of a freer flowing exhaust path for the engine.
We all know the freer the flow the more HP you will make. A properly designed collector style manifold will help evacuation of exhaust gasses from the combustion chamber and minimizing energy loss that is normally lost in this process.
This also means more of the exhaust gas is expelled on each exhaust stroke of the crankshaft, which is known as cylinder scavenging.
You must maintain exhaust pulse velocity from the cylinder head to the collector in a manifold. This is done by designing a properly sized collector in relation to the primary runner diameter.

The design of the collector itself can dictate what happens to the exhaust pulses after they reach the collector. The shape and length of a collector, in relation to the secondary runner, can promote a venturi effect, which positively affects the velocity of the exhaust pulses heading towards it in the primary runners.
Individual exhaust pulses reach the collector at different times due to the way that a four-stroke engine works. For one rotation of the crankshaft, while one pulse is entering the collector, other ones are at different points along the primary runner lengths of a manifold. When a pulse enters the collector, it expands due to the greater volume found there in the collector (now a low pressure).

The localized expansion of this exhaust pulse creates a suction effect on the other primary runners that converge at the collector, thus further helping the exhaust pulses in those runners to maintain as much velocity as possible.
However, just like how the exhaust pulses under pressure in the primaries seek out the relatively low-pressure collector, the pulse that is expanding in the collector will try to enter the other primary runners at the collector.
As the expanding gas from the primary enters the collector the other primary exiting would then present a restriction to the pulses moving down the primaries, instead of helping them. (Reversion)
Thus, a necessary component in the collector is an anti reversion wall (4-1 Pyramid).This is the wall (the pyramid) present in the collector design that presents a barrier to the expanding gas in the collector, discouraging it from entering the other primaries.
Keeping the expansion in the collector and not in the other primaries that are trying to deliver their exhaust pulses helps low back pressure and restrictions. Thus, a collector must be much more than just a meeting place of the individual exhaust pulses. Without a 4-1-pyramid collector or equal to, the collector can actually slow down the exhaust pulses in the primaries. Slow it down and you make it hard for the engine to breath freely.

If we keep it basic and look at just restriction ideas you will see why a tubular manifold with a 4-1 pyramid collector will create less resistance and make more power day in and day out (if designed right). Less restriction means more power.

[MarkyMark]

Yup.

[killa cam]

↑↑ to your avatar

[Smoker6]

That avatar is hot.

[smakdown61]

I was about to read that, then i saw mark's avatar, then i had to run to the bathroom....

[crazyitalian041]

fapfap.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 fapfap.

why the hell arent you at the track? i thought you guys were going to MIR tonight?

[Deadman]

please say you went...

[bova]

they couldn't cause they got swine flu

[crazyitalian041]

I couldnt go, work unfortunately has me bound, tomorrow im going, tonight is just a test night.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 I couldnt go, work unfortunately has me bound, tomorrow im going, tonight is just a test night.

howd the test go? its 1am are they still testing? with charles driving they were bound to bust out a 120mph run!! somebody cough it up!!

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 I couldnt go, work unfortunately has me bound, tomorrow im going, tonight is just a test night.

so no times... were they just screwing around and today is the day?

[Unoriginalusername]

time slip or ban lol

[Kennosuke]

I can't wait for a full CP-E kit to come out derived from Robbie's setup. (|:

[Design]

Great post, thanks for sharing.

[SPD6Tuner]

Ill be making 400whp one day When my head is built.

[phailerider]

hey jordan... can we get an update on the car. whats in progress on this sucker!!

[Fa5t]

I hope they got a chance to run it. Seems like things really died down.

[Deadman]

hellllo?

[shadesofgray19]

Must have gotten tied up with other things, but for how stoked they were, you would think they would have reported back with some additional information by now. Usually no news is good news, unless your boasting maximum power numbers. One has to wonder, are they really busy with other things, disappointed with the numbers on their dyno and working on doing better before reporting, or something else.

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by palerider hey jordan... can we get an update on the car. whats in progress on this sucker!!

We've been using the car for engine mount development while we were diagnosing an electrical issue that has since been addressed. Jason performed a pressure test on the intake tract today to check for leaks and we found that the BOV gasket blew out, so we're trying to source some new ones.

We also need to spend some more time on the boost control before we can go for big power numbers because it's still a little unstable in the top-end. So we'll probably need a few days of work on boost control before we can start putting out more exciting dynos.

[phailerider]

thanks jordan!!

[94jedi]

damn...any timeslips yet?

[xcoldricex]

need those mounts now!

[all4bspinnin]

so what was the final verdict on the turbo setup?

[Flightmedic]

What turbo did they go with? The post says they found the perfect one but doesnt say which one it was...

[Deadman]

update on this?

[morgan2112]

Originally Posted by Deadman update on this?

Any new NEWS????

[shadesofgray19]

I believe P3 and Robbie just scrapped practically the whole setup. Here's the new parts list.

Creative Custom Tubular Exhaust Manifold
Creative FMIC piping (2.5 inches)
Creative 3.5 Inch Downpipe
Precision FMIC Core
Precision SC61-62 T3/T4 Turbo
Tial Alpha-Q 50mm Bov
Tial 38mm EWG (routed back into the DP)

This was posted on M3F and was linked in the P3 "Robbie Update" thread. Also, they now plan to hit 600 hp with that setup. This will never happen without at least a performance IM and larger TB if this is even possible on the stock fuel injecters and cams.

[802MS3]

fail thread

[bioevolve]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 fail thread

+1

[06Speed6]

The stock head cant flow that much air lol, I have had it flow tested. Even with the massive port work and big valves that I put in it *might* flow 600hp but it isnt too likely.

You need .500" lift cams to even have a chance at flowing that much air.

I know the stock TB is flow limited to 420hp, and I imagine that the IM is about the same.

[SPD6Tuner]

Somebodys gotta start working on some new parts for this car. If 400hp is gonna be the limit than that sucks.