GB: GROUND CONTROL + KONI SPORT Coilovers for Mazdaspeed 3!

[Dimenus]

Originally Posted by RPM Thanks for sharing your findings. GC has mentioned to me in the past that they will swap out springs is people aren't happy with what they received. I don't know if there is a time limit on this (since purchased or since installed) or what the exact process is, but it may be worth inquiring about if anyone wants to swap.

I'm pretty happy with mine but on uneven roads I can still feel the Koni's struggling. They handle small bumps really well but any concrete surface and you can feel the car bounding back and forth. I'm on 1.25 turns from soft on the rear and 1.5 on the front. Softer was worse.

[JDMJOSH]

Originally Posted by rustysurfsa I could just be talking out of my ass here but... A lot of speeds run lowing springs and Koni yellows without issue. I think the problem maybe that the spring rates are too high for OTS Koni yellow valving. After seeing some of the reviews saying the rears were too bouncy, I traded in my 600 springs for 440 and shifted the 525's to the rear. I still don't have these installed but when I do I'll update this thread with my findings. If the 525's are still causing problems in the rears I'll shift the 440's in the rear and purchase a set of 375's for the fronts. There's not much information on ideal spring rates for OTS yellow's but I think (based on a lot of research) that 550 should be the max that you run without re-valving the shocks.

FWIW I adjusted mine to the settings GC suggested for my spring rates(525F 600R) which was 1 turn from stiff for the rear, and 3/4 turn from stiff front. As others have found the rear end of the car behaves much nicer when you stiffen up the Konis a bit. It rides a little on the stiffer side of stock and does a fairly excellent job soaking up mostly everything thrown at it. I'm keeping mine right where they are now

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by RPM Thanks for sharing your findings. GC has mentioned to me in the past that they will swap out springs is people aren't happy with what they received. I don't know if there is a time limit on this (since purchased or since installed) or what the exact process is, but it may be worth inquiring about if anyone wants to swap.

Guess I'm probably a bit out of range to swap out at this time eh? I'd probably swap fronts and rears to lower rates. And raise the car a little bit. I'm pretty far from slammed though.

[- POD -]

Just adjusted mine to the same settings as JDMJOSH.

Much better.

The car is better behaved. I still get a little bounce over the really rough stuff, but the car no longer feels unsettled and I never feel like the car is out of control. Now I'm really enjoying this kit.

[nybe0010]

Originally Posted by rustysurfsa I could just be talking out of my ass here but... A lot of speeds run lowing springs and Koni yellows without issue. I think the problem maybe that the spring rates are too high for OTS Koni yellow valving. After seeing some of the reviews saying the rears were too bouncy, I traded in my 600 springs for 440 and shifted the 525's to the rear. I still don't have these installed but when I do I'll update this thread with my findings. If the 525's are still causing problems in the rears I'll shift the 440's in the rear and purchase a set of 375's for the fronts. There's not much information on ideal spring rates for OTS yellow's but I think (based on a lot of research) that 550 should be the max that you run without re-valving the shocks.

I got 525F and 600R. I selected DD/Aggressive and from what it sounds like these rates are like max for OTS yellow valving. Daily driver aggressive doesn't sound like it should have the rates it does, so I was a little mislead. Just annoyed because you didn't know what rates went with what description. Only way to know for sure was custom option..So what about the guys that chose track, drag, or AutoX, are those rates just ridiculously high!? Debating if I want to do what you've done @rustysurfsa; and move the fronts back and get some 440's, or keep 525F/600R and make adjustments per @JDMJOSH; haven't installed mine yet waiting on you @rustysurfsa; lol

[daafisch]

I chose occasional autox, race and I have 600F/700R with my 44k mile old yellows set at 1/2 turn from stiff on all 4 corners. Ride doesn't bother me. Some larger dips there is some bounce but everything else feels fine. I also have mine at close to stock ride height.

[[R]usty]

Originally Posted by nybe0010 I got 525F and 600R. I selected DD/Aggressive and from what it sounds like these rates are like max for OTS yellow valving. Daily driver aggressive doesn't sound like it should have the rates it does, so I was a little mislead. Just annoyed because you didn't know what rates went with what description. Only way to know for sure was custom option..So what about the guys that chose track, drag, or AutoX, are those rates just ridiculously high!? Debating if I want to do what you've done @rustysurfsa; and move the fronts back and get some 440's, or keep 525F/600R and make adjustments per @JDMJOSH; haven't installed mine yet waiting on you @rustysurfsa; lol

No promises but I'll try and get these installed this week and let you know how they feel. I'll use JDMJOSH's settings from the get go.

[Mattyhawk1]

Just as another data point,

I got the DD on stock shocks, even though I have koni's already installed. The springs I got are 440/550. I was concerned that my wife would not like a harsh ride, needed it to stay closer to stock if possible. I was assured by GC that the 440 in front is 20% stiffer than stock and the rear is more. From my understanding, this is the softest offering in this GB.

I have not installed. I'm waiting for a good time to install and the time just hasn't come. Hopefully I can trade them still as Donovan at GC said they would take them back used if they are still to stiff.

[jrotaryb]

Originally Posted by Mattyhawk1 Just as another data point, I got the DD on stock shocks, even though I have koni's already installed. The springs I got are 440/550. I was concerned that my wife would not like a harsh ride, needed it to stay closer to stock if possible. I was assured by GC that the 440 in front is 20% stiffer than stock and the rear is more. From my understanding, this is the softest offering in this GB. I have not installed. I'm waiting for a good time to install and the time just hasn't come. Hopefully I can trade them still as Donovan at GC said they would take them back used if they are still to stiff.

MS3 stock spring rates are supposedly. That means 440/550 are way stiffer than 20%...

Gen1
F: 188 lbs/in
R: 171 lbs/in

Gen2 rates are unclear at this point. There is speculation that the front springs are actually a bit softer, but the dampers all around supposedly have significant changes. I recall an article/interview with Dave Coleman of Mazdaspeed R&D who had brifely discussed significant revisions of the damper characteristics of the Gen2 cars as they were trying to target the feel of an Evo MR.

FYI the spring rates of most coilovers seem to fall in the 400 lbs/in range for these cars.

[RPM]

Originally Posted by jrotaryb Gen1 F: 188 lbs/in R: 171 lbs/in

These are effective spring rates from the stock progressive springs, also accounting for the motion ratio of the suspension. The rates given by GC and other coilover mfrs are direct spring rates of the linear springs they use. That's why there's a seemingly large difference.

[Mattyhawk1]

Originally Posted by RPM These are effective spring rates from the stock progressive springs, also accounting for the motion ratio of the suspension. The rates given by GC and other coilover mfrs are direct spring rates of the linear springs they use. That's why there's a seemingly large difference.

I second this, but with a caveat.

I talked to Donovan specifically about this 2 months ago. I was a bit freaked when I saw the rates after I got the kit. He explained that the progressive spring rates of the stock springs are the average of the spring through the full compression of the spring. Donovan said that the ~ 20% stiffer rate of the GC spring compared to stock spring was measured when when cornering hard on the stock springs, effectively the 2nd half of the compression of the stockers. Problem for me is that means the cruising around town and highway driving will be maybe like 40% stiffer than stock spring?

Any case, am going to wait to install before having an opinion as to the GC spring rates being an advertised 20% stiffer, I'm trying to be pragmatic for now.

[Freeblurd]

After a bit of experimenting with my kit, I ended up with 450 front and rear- and I'm finally happy. At my ride height (slightly lower than stock), my rear height adjusters are maxed out- so I may consider longer springs in the future to get a little more height. I also cut the stock rear bump stops, which helped smooth things out a bit.

The larger issue was some crazy coil bind (block) that I was getting in the front. The springs are too damn short for the amount of travel available if you have them raised up. Photo shows that they were contacting each other, which resulted in a terrible bang when I hit a big bump. I replaced the springs in the kit with 7" springs, which fixed the problem.
A lot of trial and error for me on this one... I'm at full stiff all around on the Konis, for what it's worth.
In my opinion, their rates are a bit high, and the springs need to be longer for folks wanting near-stock ride heights.

[RPM]

Just FYI, I just talked to GC and they said that they're expecting to start shipping out the spring cups today or Monday, so you should start seeing them as early as next week.

[Ewind]

Originally Posted by RPM Just FYI, I just talked to GC and they said that they're expecting to start shipping out the spring cups today or Monday, so you should start seeing them as early as next week.

Was just looking for the status on this!! Thanks.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by jrotaryb MS3 stock spring rates are supposedly. That means 440/550 are way stiffer than 20%... Gen1 F: 188 lbs/in R: 171 lbs/in Gen2 rates are unclear at this point. There is speculation that the front springs are actually a bit softer, but the dampers all around supposedly have significant changes. I recall an article/interview with Dave Coleman of Mazdaspeed R&D who had brifely discussed significant revisions of the damper characteristics of the Gen2 cars as they were trying to target the feel of an Evo MR. FYI the spring rates of most coilovers seem to fall in the 400 lbs/in range for these cars.

Originally Posted by RPM These are effective spring rates from the stock progressive springs, also accounting for the motion ratio of the suspension. The rates given by GC and other coilover mfrs are direct spring rates of the linear springs they use. That's why there's a seemingly large difference.

Originally Posted by Mattyhawk1 I second this, but with a caveat. I talked to Donovan specifically about this 2 months ago. I was a bit freaked when I saw the rates after I got the kit. He explained that the progressive spring rates of the stock springs are the average of the spring through the full compression of the spring. Donovan said that the ~ 20% stiffer rate of the GC spring compared to stock spring was measured when when cornering hard on the stock springs, effectively the 2nd half of the compression of the stockers. Problem for me is that means the cruising around town and highway driving will be maybe like 40% stiffer than stock spring? Any case, am going to wait to install before having an opinion as to the GC spring rates being an advertised 20% stiffer, I'm trying to be pragmatic for now.

Lol.

The OEM springs are NOT progressive. The coils are evenly spaced, the spring wire is of uniform thickness, and the part of the spring that is wound tighter (on the front springs) is compressed at static height (negating it's net effect on observed rate).

[Mattyhawk1]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 Lol. The OEM springs are NOT progressive. The coils are evenly spaced, the spring wire is of uniform thickness, and the part of the spring that is wound tighter (on the front springs) is compressed at static height (negating it's net effect on observed rate).

THats too bad, gives me less confidence in Donovan and Ground Control if they would tell me that.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Mattyhawk1 THats too bad, gives me less confidence in Donovan and Ground Control if they would tell me that.

Now that said, the effect of the OEM jounce bumpers on observed spring rate should not be ignored/discounted.

There is not a ton of travel in the OEM suspension before they become engaged, which effectively raises the spring rates (quite significantly, I imagine).

I'm not going to go so far as to assume that's what this guy was trying to say, but it needs to be pointed out...

[Mattyhawk1]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 Now that said, the effect of the OEM jounce bumpers on observed spring rate should not be ignored/discounted. There is not a ton of travel in the OEM suspension before they become engaged, which effectively raises the spring rates (quite significantly, I imagine). I'm not going to go so far as to assume that's what this guy was trying to say, but it needs to be pointed out...

He did not make reference to the effective rates including bumpstop engagement, but I remember him specifically referencing the oem springs as progressive. I questioned him on this because I thought the OEMs were linear, but he kept saying they were progressive. There may have been some lost in translation going on.

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by Freeblurd After a bit of experimenting with my kit, I ended up with 450 front and rear- and I'm finally happy. At my ride height (slightly lower than stock), my rear height adjusters are maxed out- so I may consider longer springs in the future to get a little more height. I also cut the stock rear bump stops, which helped smooth things out a bit. The larger issue was some crazy coil bind (block) that I was getting in the front. The springs are too damn short for the amount of travel available if you have them raised up. Photo shows that they were contacting each other, which resulted in a terrible bang when I hit a big bump. I replaced the springs in the kit with 7" springs, which fixed the problem. A lot of trial and error for me on this one... I'm at full stiff all around on the Konis, for what it's worth. In my opinion, their rates are a bit high, and the springs need to be longer for folks wanting near-stock ride heights.

So this is working well for you?
@RPM; is this something you could work with GC on sending out to those who want it?

I get that bang on big bumps all the time and the ride with the rates I have is just intolerable over undulating concrete. I feel like everyone else that the rates are just too high to match up with these konis.

[RPM]

Originally Posted by Chimmike So this is working well for you? @RPM; is this something you could work with GC on sending out to those who want it? I get that bang on big bumps all the time and the ride with the rates I have is just intolerable over undulating concrete. I feel like everyone else that the rates are just too high to match up with these konis.

Yeah, we could get some 7" 450lb springs if someone wants them. The Eibach part number is 0700.250.0450 (or 07002500450 at some stores). In fact, GC may even swap them out for those who haven't installed the kit. That's something you'd need to ask GC about, though. Unless GC can give us a break (I couldn't get Donovan on the phone today), it looks like the best we could do for a pair is $132.

[Dimenus]

Pair? So rears only?

[monkey.bones.007]

Was there any word on when spring cups were set to arrive? I've not gotten anything yet.

[Ewind]

Anyone notice a difference between passenger and driver side height adjustments?

Eg: for fronts, the adjustment is about the same on both sides.
For the rears, to get them even, the driver rear is adjust to almost a full raise and the passenger side rear is lowered probably a quarter from full raise.

This basically means I'll be able to raise the passenger side rear this winter, but not the driver side rear.

[JDMJOSH]

Not really. My rears are probably within 1/16" of each other and I set them evenly upon install.

[Helrich]

My rears are 1/4" different with a full gas tank, evens out as the tank empties.

[Ewind]

Originally Posted by Helrich My rears are 1/4" different with a full gas tank, evens out as the tank empties.

Totally didn't think about the fuel tanks. Thanks!

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by RPM Yeah, we could get some 7" 450lb springs if someone wants them. The Eibach part number is 0700.250.0450 (or 07002500450 at some stores). In fact, GC may even swap them out for those who haven't installed the kit. That's something you'd need to ask GC about, though. Unless GC can give us a break (I couldn't get Donovan on the phone today), it looks like the best we could do for a pair is $132.

I mean, given the overall poor job of matching spring rates to the konis, is this something you think we could get GC to throw us?

[RPM]

Originally Posted by Dimenus Pair? So rears only?

Well, I just priced them as a pair in case someone wants only the fronts. The spring cups should prevent the described problem in the rear.

And just FYI, GC said some of the spring cups went out last week and the rest are going out this week.

[RPM]

Originally Posted by Chimmike I mean, given the overall poor job of matching spring rates to the konis, is this something you think we could get GC to throw us?

Well, like I said, GC will exchange springs. They will do it no questions asked if the springs haven't been used. If they have been installed, it's handled on a case-by-case basis depending upon the condition of the spring, if it's been driven on, etc. In this case, you'd need to talk to GC directly to see what your options are.

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by RPM Well, like I said, GC will exchange springs. They will do it no questions asked if the springs haven't been used. If they have been installed, it's handled on a case-by-case basis depending upon the condition of the spring, if it's been driven on, etc. In this case, you'd need to talk to GC directly to see what your options are.

goody.

well, I'm sure mine will be a "no".
I've driven on 'em too long now.

[[R]usty]

Originally Posted by Chimmike goody. well, I'm sure mine will be a "no". I've driven on 'em too long now.

I still haven't installed mine do you really think it's worth an exchange to 7" springs?

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by rustysurfsa I still haven't installed mine do you really think it's worth an exchange to 7" springs?

I didn't lower mine much at all, and I think I have 2 things against me: 1) springs are just too damn stiff, and 2) springs are just too short for a minimal drop.

[nybe0010]

Originally Posted by Chimmike I didn't lower mine much at all, and I think I have 2 things against me: 1) springs are just too damn stiff, and 2) springs are just too short for a minimal drop.

So it's not possible to get it to stock height with teh given 6" springs? I would like to have adjustment for stock height at least for winter. Just worried the 7" springs might not allow for enough drop come summer. Regardless, I'm gonna need to send my springs back for softer ones

[Helrich]

I'm not sure what springs you guys got, but I'm only 3/4" lower and my springs are fine by a long shot, except when I have both wheels off the ground on jacks. I'm actually looking for stiffer springs I think eventually, the DD/aggressive don't quite cut it for me on the track, although I could probably do with a sway bar upgrade. If anybody went with stiffer springs and is looking for softer ones, let me know lol.

[daafisch]

Originally Posted by nybe0010 So it's not possible to get it to stock height with teh given 6" springs? I would like to have adjustment for stock height at least for winter. Just worried the 7" springs might not allow for enough drop come summer. Regardless, I'm gonna need to send my springs back for softer ones

You can get the car to stock height.

[Dimenus]

Originally Posted by Helrich I'm not sure what springs you guys got, but I'm only 3/4" lower and my springs are fine by a long shot, except when I have both wheels off the ground on jacks. I'm actually looking for stiffer springs I think eventually, the DD/aggressive don't quite cut it for me on the track, although I could probably do with a sway bar upgrade. If anybody went with stiffer springs and is looking for softer ones, let me know lol.

Which ones do you have?

[Helrich]

"Occasional Autocross / Aggressive". Never really looked up the numbers on the springs to get the actual rates because I'm a casual.

[461_SS]

Originally Posted by Helrich I'm not sure what springs you guys got, but I'm only 3/4" lower and my springs are fine by a long shot, except when I have both wheels off the ground on jacks. I'm actually looking for stiffer springs I think eventually, the DD/aggressive don't quite cut it for me on the track, although I could probably do with a sway bar upgrade. If anybody went with stiffer springs and is looking for softer ones, let me know lol.

Please elaborate how they do not cut it for you on the track?

If you are looking for stiffer springs, why don't you just get spring rubbers?

[Helrich]

Originally Posted by 461_SS Please elaborate how they do not cut it for you on the track? If you are looking for stiffer springs, why don't you just get spring rubbers?

A bit too much body roll still. Got some rubbing in the front which obviously could be remedied by increasing the ride height, but the stiffness of my current springs isn't close to bothersome for me so I figure why not?

I actually hadn't heard of spring rubbers before but after googling, that looks like a pretty nice option to look into as well.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Helrich A bit too much body roll still. Got some rubbing in the front which obviously could be remedied by increasing the ride height, but the stiffness of my current springs isn't close to bothersome for me so I figure why not? I actually hadn't heard of spring rubbers before but after googling, that looks like a pretty nice option to look into as well.

The why not is because you are probably going to reach the point where the dampers can no longer control the movement. If you think the dampers have more left, try it. If you run too much spring, you will end up losing grip. Adding more roll resistance via ARB's might be a better option.