ECU Load cap shattered!

[Dano]

MZR ECU Load Clipping.pdf
Edit: 1-5-2011: The load cap is long gone and thus this thread is obsolete. To remove the cap simply load up the new ATR and go to the Load section and change:

CL Max Load A & B tables to 3.0


Edit 6-23-10: Well Cobb will soon release a new version of ATR which will render the "load cap fix" obsolete.

A teaser of what it will look like... Thanks go out to Christian and Trey at Cobb for getting back into the Mazda game!




Attached is a document draft that outlines the steps I went thru to get around the Load cap that exists within the Mazda ECU. Some don’t appear to have this issue while others have experienced it, and know full well what it is and what it does yet still others experience the side effects and don’t realize what is going on. I fell into this last category .

I am sure that Cobb will address this eventually and provide a better solution but in the mean time this is all we have. This ECU re-mapping logic has been brought about by much trial and error tuning by many talented individuals on this forum. The specific procedure outlined within was presented to me by djuosnteisn and I consider myself fortunate to be able to be one of the pioneers in the testing of this process. There is still much work to be done but great progress is on the horizon.

Enjoy!

Edit: we need a BT guy to do this and dyno the results...super are you out there?

Edit: 02-16-10 Uploaded most recent logs

Edit: 02-20-10 Revised document with Timing and Fuel table changes
Uploaded current map and logs.MZR ECU Load Clipping.pdf

[flyrevs2]

AP "wall" breaker - hats off to you guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You rock.

[Jarods7920]

Interesting.

[Realgib3]

If you don’t understand the principals outlined herein don’t proceed, do not pass go, do not collect multiple MZR engine parts off the pavement.

HAHAHAH I Love it!!! Great write-up. I'm glad you got it out there quick even if it is just a first draft, it includes 99% of what anyone new needs to know, and I'm sure in the very near future we will have everything else cleaned up, smoothed out, and working flawlessly!

Again, great job to everyone who was involved in this. It's been great working with all of you to figure this all out, and I can't wait to see the big things to come!!!

[06Speed6]

Interesting work around, it seems like it could work.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Interesting work around, it seems like it could work.

It does work lol. It works unbelievably well, and can only get better from here. The only thing we haven't proven 100% is that we are, and will be making a lot more power. And for that we are just waiting on tuning and dyno time.

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx can't wait for results!

There are tons of amazing results in the other thread, the only results we're still waiting on are dyno numbers...which, for me, are waiting on snow to stop falling, and some money to actually get some worthwhile dyno time.

[flyrevs2]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 It does work lol. It works unbelievably well, and can only get better from here. The only thing we haven't proven 100% is that we are, and will be making a lot more power. And for that we are just waiting on tuning and dyno time. There are tons of amazing results in the other thread, the only results we're still waiting on are dyno numbers...which, for me, are waiting on snow to stop falling, and some money to actually get some worthwhile dyno time.

link to other thread ? thanks

[SpeedSixxx]

can't wait for results!

[Lex]

Well written! Thanks for doing the leg work on all this - it's good to see that I/we weren't going crazy. We're understanding the ECU bit by bit and that's awesome progress even though this is a bit of a work-around!

By the way, if you guys are not clipping load, then you don't need to make this fix. I suspect that in cold weather 18-19psi will get you to cap load.

There's also evidence that the ECU may be attempting to close throttle while load is being clipped to try and pull itself out of the situation.

[bioevolve]

Great find guys!!!!!!!
AWSOME JOB!!!!!! Proud of youz!!!
Now I gotta go play with it.

[dizzin9]

so basically this is the "gateway", if u will, to 1000whp right?

[nighthawk358]

soo by doing this..will the throttle plate be open 100%?

[ATE BALLER]

That's probly CPEs super-secret flash.

[tbot]

I'm more and more impressed with the knowledge of everyone on these forums. I honestly read thru that multiple times, and still have NO idea what any of it means. FML. But congrats on the find!

[chrisyng]

So essentially, you are "Tricking" the ECU by manipulating the input and outputting something else.. Kind of like what a "piggyback" system like the standback would...
not wanting to start another war or anything, but I just found it amusing that the AP is being used in this way in order to achieve the gains..If this is truly the "wall" flash, is it as simple as CP-E flashing the MAF calibration the same way? someone out there with the cp-e flash should log their load and see how close to 200 they get..

[Lex]

Originally Posted by chrisyng So essentially, you are "Tricking" the ECU by manipulating the input and outputting something else.. Kind of like what a "piggyback" system like the standback would... not wanting to start another war or anything, but I just found it amusing that the AP is being used in this way in order to achieve the gains..If this is truly the "wall" flash, is it as simple as CP-E flashing the MAF calibration the same way? someone out there with the cp-e flash should log their load and see how close to 200 they get..

Unlike a piggyback this should not need a retune should the weather change.

The ECU load cap seems to be different for older than newer speeds. So it's just a parameter in the stock ECU. CPE changes that parameter. This way all this scaling is not necessary.

[ZoomZoomVT]

Thats awesome! Thanks for the knowledge for some of us noobs.

[dread]

What is the load cap. My calculated load goes over 200 frequently and I am only stage 1+. I assume this is only worth it for people that are more heavily modified. There are definately tables that we don't have access to. I hope cobb opens them up soon. Congrats on the work around though, I hope the dyno demonstrates their effectiveness.

[bioevolve]

Last RUMOR I heard was COBB is supposingly releasing something at the end of the month or so.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dread What is the load cap. My calculated load goes over 200 frequently and I am only stage 1+. I assume this is only worth it for people that are more heavily modified. There are definately tables that we don't have access to. I hope cobb opens them up soon. Congrats on the work around though, I hope the dyno demonstrates their effectiveness.

We've seen the cap vary from car to car - anywhere from 2.0 (on newer MS3s) to 2.4 on the older ones.

[Dano]

To be clear, the "cap" is evidenced by a flat-line in your Calc Load and the load doesn't follow a curve. For me, the cap comes on immediately at 195, RPMs rise until about 6200 then you can begin to see the load start coming back down. During that whole time 3k-6.2k or so, the load remains locked at 195 with no fluctuation. In reality we know the load continues to rise like a torque curve but the ECU doesn’t see it or at least doesn’t respond to it.

Mine WAS 195 and I have an early 07 MS3

[dread]

Good to know, I got my ms3 in nov 06. I went to a dyno day with a bunch of guys and put down more torque than all of the stage 2+ guys. My car is probably just a freak.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by dread Good to know, I got my ms3 in nov 06. I went to a dyno day with a bunch of guys and put down more torque than all of the stage 2+ guys. My car is probably just a freak.

perfect example log of a flat-line load. And we have stated that this doesn't appear to effect everyone...you lucky bastards...LOL

[RJTSi]

sounds like i have this cap problem. my car will shoot straight to 195, hold that for a bit and then start to come down. I'm only targeting a max of 192 or so. i can also feel a slight drop in power as I'm accelerating which i think may be the throttle closing. when this happens in my logs, my throttle is only around mid to high 60's. I'm running a modified Stg 1+. i just want my car to follow my TRL gear tables and not overshoot them.

[AFcadet]

Originally Posted by RJTSi sounds like i have this cap problem. my car will shoot straight to 195, hold that for a bit and then start to come down. I'm only targeting a max of 192 or so. i can also feel a slight drop in power as I'm accelerating which i think may be the throttle closing. when this happens in my logs, my throttle is only around mid to high 60's. I'm running a modified Stg 1+. i just want my car to follow my TRL gear tables and not overshoot them.

Sounds like you may have the problem. Mine performed like yours...but the key is to watch your AFRs. if they are sporadic (going lean) then it looks like your defiantly hitting this limit.


I read through the "how to"...and have been following the thread for a while now...and I just modified my map.

I brought my MAF down 5% at 3.67volts and above
brought my fuel down by 7% in all OL tables (just to be safe for the first flash)
brought my TRLx down by 10% (just to be safe for first flash)
Changed the CL Max Load to 1.1 for every table
Changed the CL Max Throttle to 100 for every table
Bumped the OL Ign Tables up 3 rows
Bumped the VVT Tables up 3 rows

We got snow this morning on the roads...its melted but wet. Not sure if I will be able to test it today or not.

If anyone sees any problems with my changes...please speak up!

[Dano]

Originally Posted by AFcadet Sounds like you may have the problem. Mine performed like yours...but the key is to watch your AFRs. if they are sporadic (going lean) then it looks like your defiantly hitting this limit. I read through the "how to"...and have been following the thread for a while now...and I just modified my map. I brought my MAF down 5% at 3.67volts and above Did you log after making the CL table changes to find out at what vt your car switches into OL? 3.67 isn't going to be the entry point for everyone and prob depends on your intake. brought my fuel down by 7% in all OL tables (just to be safe for the first flash) brought my TRLx down by 10% (just to be safe for first flash) Changed the CL Max Load to 1.1 for every table Changed the CL Max Throttle to 100 for every table Bumped the OL Ign Tables up 3 rows You will need to log the difference between your Load pre MAF scal and post scal to determine the difference. Then you'll know how many rows to shift Bumped the VVT Tables up 3 rows Prob not necessary as they are all the same above .8 load or so and you only scaled MAF 5%. We got snow this morning on the roads...its melted but wet. Not sure if I will be able to test it today or not. If anyone sees any problems with my changes...please speak up!

jj

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 And we have stated that this doesn't appear to effect everyone...you lucky bastards...LOL

This is probably why cp-e said that it really wont help stock turbo folks. (assuming that this is what the "wall" is)

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed This is probably why cp-e said that it really wont help stock turbo folks. (assuming that this is what the "wall" is)

I am running stock turbo so that's not the defining factor and we don't know what it is yet. Maybe some sort of TSB on the ECU. I personally have never been to a dealer so my ECU hasn't been flashed. IDK

Edit: oh and we are not saying that this work-around is "the" wall but it is "a" wall.

[socks]

How much are you able to scale and keep fueling in check?

I'm guessing theres a certain point at which you cant trick it enough to get around the limit?

[Dano]

fueling is scaled as the MAF is scaled. when you are happy with load you can fine tune your fueling. Its all in the doc.

[Frequentflyer]

Can't believe I'm hitting 200+ with my mods, but it has been cold here so that could be the factor. My AFR's seem like they're OK though, so I don't think I'll mess with this breakthrough quite yet.

[skeeter149]

damn i only can grasped like 35% of this but this is why i joined mazdaspeed forums. good work all of you involved cant wait to see what else you can do

[rodrigo]

no clue wtf all this techie talk iz bout,...but i do have one question.

I CAN HAZ POWAH????

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 no clue wtf all this techie talk iz bout,...but i do have one question. I CAN HAZ POWAH????

Lenny, do a pull in 4th gear and log calculated load along with boost, RPM, AFR, throttle position and we'll see where you stand.

[rodrigo]

yes, keep it simple for me ...... mechanics are simple.....electronic wizardry though is over my head.

ill ask aaron to translate for me, only he knows how stupid i really am

Originally Posted by Lex Lenny, do a pull in 4th gear and log calculated load along with boost, RPM, AFR, throttle position and we'll see where you stand.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 yes, keep it simple for me ...... mechanics are simple.....electronic wizardry though is over my head. ill ask aaron to translate for me, only he knows how stupid i really am

its all smoke and mirrors man!!!

[djuosnteisn]

Glad this worked

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Glad this worked

Yeah dude. Lots of folks have worked on this and provided inputs/data, but I call you out as the "Master" at getting to the bottom of this issue! I'm sure there's more to come as well! Thanks!!!

[Dano]

yes he is! i'm sure Christian will be contacting him soon hahahah

Thanks DJ!

[manelscout4life]

by any chance could the factor determining whether or not the load is being clipped have anything to do with some cars being cali spec?
I want to go out rite now and see if I am getting load above 200 but the snow right now wont allow that.