New BNRS3 Housing

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by JgamB Just got off the phone with Bryan. Some suggestions were to run the compressor (restricted) nipple to the WGA top port only, remove the EBCS from the equation. Considering I think my WG flapper is hosed and maybe even my WGA not working properly, I don't like that idea. The other suggestion which I will do is remove the arm from my flap and get her up to temp and see if it's sticking. I probably do have a two-fold issue, we'll find out. And I made mention that it *appears* the single barb units aren't having as many issues - awaiting further details, and pending my results we'll be swapping me to a single barb when I visit his shop Saturday.

IMO, fuck that. If anything you would run an unrestricted source to the gate.

can you get a compressor and t a gauge in to the high pressure source? You'll need someone to watch the arm.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by Lex If you're running 3 port, don't use the compressor port as a boost source. Use your BPV line/manifold or off your charge piping. ... I actually recommend trying with the 2 port setup and run this turbo exactly like OEM with the 2 port EBCS. Two port (bleed style) boost control is more forgiving than 3 port and you can keep your Dynamics tables pretty much stock. I recommend dropping your WGDC table in the 20s and working your way up.

We tried teeing off of the IM/BPV hose originally but we still had the issue.

I may have @JgamB; bring his 2 port controller over and have us try that out. @rfinkle2;, if we go this route, can you shoot us a base map for that?

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 can you get a compressor and t a gauge in to the high pressure source? You'll need someone to watch the arm.

I have a compressor, the T we used for the IM/BPV, and can get this done. Unfortunately, it may have to wait due to a high probability of tornadoes in the area tonight.

I'll post back results when we get a chance to do them.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 IMO, fuck that. If anything you would run an unrestricted source to the gate.

Wouldn't putting the compressor nipple directly to the waste gate just keep the gate open at whatever preload pressure was? If the waste gate is broken, how is this proposed setup any different than having an EBCS in the loop? If the waste gate functions, you'd just see spring pressure without the possibility of EBCS mucking with anything.

Or are you talking about the option of having the arm disconnected from the flapper? I would think that would just result in 0 boost since the flapper would press open relatively easy.

[Lex]

Always go back to the base, lowest boost, least complicated setup. In this case it is spring pressure. Make sure that is under control before even attempting to add an EBCS.

If it's not use a hand pump to make sure the WG actuator is opening and closing without catching on anything with the car off and after it's cool.

There should be a few mm of preload on the arm - 2-4mm is a good starting point.

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by nindoja For those that don't have excel readily accessible, here is a web version of the log - AP log viewer

I see what you did there

[Jonathanhair07]

Originally Posted by neganox Try Edge? I put in an order for one after catching up in this thread this morning.

I'm not completely sure but I think they are a drop order from stratified. I could be wrong

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[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by Lex The history of BNR S3 turbo boost control goes like this: 1. The original S3 had a single barb WG actuator. It had very good boost control unless you were catless 2. After this, while still using the K04 exhaust side a number of S3s started coming out with the two port actuator. This had really poor boost control where fluctuations in boost and creep were very hard to control. This one also has the upgraded compressor housing with the port on the side but NO restrictor in the port. 3. The new V2 S3 has a restrictor in the compressor housing port. This is so you can run this with your OEM 2 port EBCS. It appears that most of them also come with the dreaded 2 port WG actuators. The other variable is the new housing and how well matched the WG door is. If you're running 3 port, don't use the compressor port as a boost source. Use your BPV line/manifold or off your charge piping. Start with spring pressure only and see how it responds to punching it at different RPMs. The two port actuators would spike at higher RPMs and undershoot when at lower RPMs on spring pressure. I actually recommend trying with the 2 port setup and run this turbo exactly like OEM with the 2 port EBCS. Two port (bleed style) boost control is more forgiving than 3 port and you can keep your Dynamics tables pretty much stock. I recommend dropping your WGDC table in the 20s and working your way up. If you determine the actuator is the problem and even on spring pressure alone you are getting different boost responses at different RPMs, adjust the preload. If you are getting spiking, lower the preload. If you are underboosting, increase the preload. The actuator from my discussion with Bryan should be around 13-14psi so this is what you're shooting for on spring pressure.

Blahhh.

Why does this have to be so damn complicated? @rfinkle2; I honestly dont know how I should hook my EBCS up. I have the 2 port WG Actuator.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff Blahhh. Why does this have to be so damn complicated? @rfinkle2; I honestly dont know how I should hook my EBCS up. I have the 2 port WG Actuator.

Can you wait until this weekend is over? Or even later this week? @JgamB; and I will be working this throughout the week and will post up our findings here.

[Jonathanhair07]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff Blahhh. Why does this have to be so damn complicated? @rfinkle2; I honestly dont know how I should hook my EBCS up. I have the 2 port WG Actuator.

The setup I mentioned before will work for both dual and single wastegate nipple cause I'm only using one correctly. Someone else should try it and see if it work for them.

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[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by nindoja We tried teeing off of the IM/BPV hose originally but we still had the issue. I may have @JgamB; bring his 2 port controller over and have us try that out. @rfinkle2;, if we go this route, can you shoot us a base map for that? I have a compressor, the T we used for the IM/BPV, and can get this done. Unfortunately, it may have to wait due to a high probability of tornadoes in the area tonight. I'll post back results when we get a chance to do them. Wouldn't putting the compressor nipple directly to the waste gate just keep the gate open at whatever preload pressure was? If the waste gate is broken, how is this proposed setup any different than having an EBCS in the loop? If the waste gate functions, you'd just see spring pressure without the possibility of EBCS mucking with anything. Or are you talking about the option of having the arm disconnected from the flapper? I would think that would just result in 0 boost since the flapper would press open relatively easy.

I don't know what Bryan is proposing, but see no reason why he would propose using a restricted source to the wastegate if you guys are experiencing creep.

You want the signal line to the wga to send full boost to the wga.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by nindoja Can you wait until this weekend is over? Or even later this week? @JgamB; and I will be working this throughout the week and will post up our findings here.

This weekend is the only weekend that will work to put the turbo in. I will check when I get home to see if I have the 2 port WG actuator...i'm pretty positive I do though.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff This weekend is the only weekend that will work to put the turbo in. I will check when I get home to see if I have the 2 port WG actuator...i'm pretty positive I do though.

If you are going to use a 2 port, have Lex tune it.

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I don't know what Bryan is proposing, but see no reason why he would propose using a restricted source to the wastegate if you guys are experiencing creep. You want the signal line to the wga to send full boost to the wga.

I think he just wants to rule out the EBCS. The restrictor will still allow full boost to the WGA, it will just take slightly longer for it to happen if restricted.

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[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If you are going to use a 2 port, have Lex tune it.

I'm not planning on using a 2 port as I feel like the 3 port will be better.

But, since theres such a contrast between the 2 and single port WG Actuators I just have no idea how to hook up my EBCS since I have the 2 port WG Actuator. lol I was planning on compressor housing, cap the other port on the WG actuator, WG actuator other nipple, and the intake. But now people are saying that I will creep like crazy with the 2 port WG actuator running this setup..... head is spinning a little lol

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by chaser27 I think he just wants to rule out the EBCS. The restrictor will still allow full boost to the WGA, it will just take slightly longer for it to happen if restricted. Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

I am not going to participate in this "experiment" any longer, because quite frankly, you guys are playing with a mechanical problem and fire.

There is no reason that everyone's BCS would fail on JTMS3's turbo, Jgam's turbo etc.

Testing all of these things on more than one car is proving to be too much of a liability for me tbh.

[specvspeedfreak]

Can someone just tell me if running 3 port (GS configuration) would be "safe" since I have only 1 nipple on the wga? I am just confused now and don't quite understand turbo tech talk. lol

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff I'm not planning on using a 2 port as I feel like the 3 port will be better. But, since theres such a contrast between the 2 and single port WG Actuators I just have no idea how to hook up my EBCS since I have the 2 port WG Actuator. lol I was planning on compressor housing, cap the other port on the WG actuator, WG actuator other nipple, and the intake. But now people are saying that I will creep like crazy with the 2 port WG actuator running this setup..... head is spinning a little lol

A 3 port and 2 port have no influence on creep.

If the wastegate is allowed to open without driving the bcs, such as in the logs posted, it doesn't matter if you have a 10 port bcs.

Originally Posted by specvspeedfreak Can someone just tell me if running 3 port (GS configuration) would be "safe" since I have only 1 nipple on the wga? I am just confused now and don't quite understand turbo tech talk. lol

I would run only spring pressure / no solenoid.

To do this, you would run the high pressure source straight to the wga.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 A 3 port and 2 port have no influence on creep. If the wastegate is allowed to open without driving the bcs, such as in the logs posted, it doesn't matter if you have a 10 port bcs.,

Roger that. Sticking with the initial plan then.

[SneakySin]

Originally Posted by JTMS3 @SneakySin; input?? Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

I'm in the midst of a Freektune right now. On my first revision since my base map and having zero issues. This turbo is stout. No creep issues and boosting peak about 20psi. Everything is golden thus far just waiting on my next revision to see how things look but so far so good. Very impressed with my car so far.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by nindoja I have a compressor, the T we used for the IM/BPV, and can get this done. Unfortunately, it may have to wait due to a high probability of tornadoes in the area tonight. I'll post back results when we get a chance to do them.

Be safe.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by SneakySin I'm in the midst of a Freektune right now. On my first revision since my base map and having zero issues. This turbo is stout. No creep issues and boosting peak about 20psi. Everything is golden thus far just waiting on my next revision to see how things look but so far so good. Very impressed with my car so far.

You running the 2 port WG Actuator or the single nipple?

In fact, it really pisses me off that there would be TWO DIFFERENT FUCKING VERSIONS on the same turbo.

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I am not going to participate in this "experiment" any longer, because quite frankly, you guys are playing with a mechanical problem and fire. There is no reason that everyone's BCS would fail on JTMS3's turbo, Jgam's turbo etc. Testing all of these things on more than one car is proving to be too much of a liability for me tbh.

I don't blame you. People are too often looking for someone to blame when something goes wrong. More often than not, the tuner...

To me, the fact that @JgamB; is hitting 13psi with 0 WGDC, but then after he does a few WOT pulls is hitting 27, tells me it isn't the EBCS, not the WGA, but instead something in the flapper assembly binding after the metal is given time to expand.

Subbed for results.

[rfinkle2]

2 guys have 2 distinct metallic noises coming from this turbo. I should have recognized an issue right there and called it quits.

JTMS3 and Jgamb both report this metallic sound and had boost issues.

I may not be an engineer, I may be prideless and fly by night, but this ain't the first car I tuned and understand boost control as well as anyone, imo.

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by chaser27 To me, the fact that @JgamB; is hitting 13psi with 0 WGDC, but then after he does a few WOT pulls is hitting 27, tells me it isn't the EBCS, not the WGA, but instead something in the flapper assembly binding after the metal is given time to expand.

This is why I'm a shitty candidate for troubleshooting EBCS setups - I'm 99% certain I have a mechanical problem and no amount of hoses and nipples is going to fix it, although we could have an orgy.

[Lex]

You can run both 2 port and 3 port on any of the WG actuators.

If you are running 3 port, DO NOT use the compressor housing port as a boost source.
If you are running 3 port on a 2 port WG actuator, simply cap off the bottom WG actuator port and the compressor housing boost source port.

Use the manifold boost source.

Attached is a log of a 3 port ran as described above on a new S3 V2 with the two port WG actuator. It does creep a little for my liking but is manageable on his fuel.

However, always test with spring pressure only. If boost is not under control then, an EBCS won't help no matter how you hook it up.

[Jonathanhair07]

I would just pull the turbo send it back to bnr reinstall the ko4 until it gets fix. Or just go ewg imo

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[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 This is before I was trying to kill the creep with the throttle plate (unsuccessfully). If I request any less timing, there is a good chance of cooking an valve. *rev limiter set to 5800 rpm.

This log was created using the manifold as a high pressure source.

Again, this car has a distinct metallic sound.

I would assume the log Lex posted had no metallic sound.

New BNRS3 Housing

[nindoja]

Appreciate all the ideas and support everyone. It does sound like a possible manufacturing/assembly issue when multiple people on different setups are having the same symptoms.

I'm going to go back over all the ideas posted here and think them all over. I think right now I have 4 or 5 different options and I want to lay them all out before proceeding.

@rfinkle2; I respect your desires to not be part of the experiment, although we will gladly take input from you. Neither myself or @JgamB; will blame you for this mechanical failure or any future failures relating to our diagnosis.

[SneakySin]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff You running the 2 port WG Actuator or the single nipple? In fact, it really pisses me off that there would be TWO DIFFERENT FUCKING VERSIONS on the same turbo.

I have the 2 port WG actuator

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by nindoja Appreciate all the ideas and support everyone. It does sound like a possible manufacturing/assembly issue when multiple people on different setups are having the same symptoms. I'm going to go back over all the ideas posted here and think them all over. I think right now I have 4 or 5 different options and I want to lay them all out before proceeding. @rfinkle2; I respect your desires to not be part of the experiment, although we will gladly take input from you. Neither myself or @JgamB; will blame you for this mechanical failure or any future failures relating to our diagnosis.

Can you confirm or jgamb that using the manifold as a high pressure source still resulted in creep?

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 This log was created using the manifold as a high pressure source. Again, this car has a distinct metallic sound. I would assume the log Lex posted had no metallic sound. New BNRS3 Housing

Sidebar:

I'm still waiting on my S3, but from what I could hear in the video posted earlier in this thread, it sounded like there was turbine/housing interference, and a bit of a "scraping" noise. Is that what you're referring to when you say there was a "distinct metallic sound?"

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Can you confirm or jgamb that using the manifold as a high pressure source still resulted in creep?

Every log I've sent you to this point was off the manifold. We just swapped to the compressor housing yesterday, and it was no bueno. The sample you posted with creep was port 1 TIP port 2 WGA port 3 BPV/TB Tee.

But I think you can safely toss my results in the recycling bin... WGA or flapper fail was what resulted in consecutive pulls of 17 peak PSI, then 19, then 22, then 24.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Can you confirm or jgamb that using the manifold as a high pressure source still resulted in creep?

I'd like to know this as well.

@Lex; seems to be pretty confident in not using the compressor housing as the high pressure source. I mean it shouldn't really matter one way or the other.

[MazdaBoy2.3]

Welp, my order was just canceled.

No offense to BNR (ok maybe a little) but this seems to be an issue with a lack of testing prior to the release.

The S3 has built it's name on being a drop in turbo with little hassle, this version appears to be neither....

[dale_gribble]

I want to thank the pioneers for going through this. I'm sure this will all be resolved sufficiently with a little more data and time. I feel good that Bryan will support this and make whatever right on his end he needs to.

Did anyone carefully inspect their turbos prior to install?

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Can you confirm or jgamb that using the manifold as a high pressure source still resulted in creep?

I can confirm that using the manifold source still resulted in creep.

@HawkeyeGeoff; since he was interested in answer too.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by MazdaBoy2.3 Welp, my order was just canceled. No offense to BNR (ok maybe a little) but this seems to be an issue with a lack of testing prior to the release. The S3 has built it's name on being a drop in turbo with little hassle, this version appears to be neither....

There certainly looks to be a lot of issues.

I would really like to be able to find a way to test for this "metal" noise before installing the turbo for those of us that have yet to make the leap.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Vansquish Sidebar: I'm still waiting on my S3, but from what I could hear in the video posted earlier in this thread, it sounded like there was turbine/housing interference, and a bit of a "scraping" noise. Is that what you're referring to when you say there was a "distinct metallic sound?"

2 guys have now reported a distinct metallic sound to me. I have not heard it, but it is too coincidental to overlook they were both the guys who have creeped by the highest amount.

Originally Posted by JgamB Every log I've sent you to this point was off the manifold. We just swapped to the compressor housing yesterday, and it was no bueno. The sample you posted with creep was port 1 TIP port 2 WGA port 3 BPV/TB Tee. But I think you can safely toss my results in the recycling bin... WGA or flapper fail was what resulted in consecutive pulls of 17 peak PSI, then 19, then 22, then 24.

Thank you. There is no sense in confusing this situation so thank you.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by JTMS3 Nooooooo way? Fuck me, thanks for the update! Lol Here is the sound clip you can here it begin right at the end. This was the cold start I was referring to. It obviously got worse before zzb. BNR v2 & Full Race EM-first turn. - YouTube Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

That noise on throttle is exactly what we were hearing in @JgamB;'s car. @rfinkle2; this video has a noise towards the end, right after throttle input, that is what we heard.

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff There certainly looks to be a lot of issues. I would really like to be able to find a way to test for this "metal" noise before installing the turbo for those of us that have yet to make the leap.

My completely unscientific guesstimate is the new 27mm flap has some very tight tolerances, and when it reaches full temperature it may or may not be abrading on another surface. This is my DD or I'd have already pulled the turbo to inspect.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 2 guys have now reported a distinct metallic sound to me. I have not heard it, but it is too coincidental to overlook they were both the guys who have creeped by the highest amount. Thank you. There is no sense in confusing this situation so thank you.

I guess the real question here is....do we risk even putting this turbo on before we understand the risks?

More people=more confusion sometimes.