ATR User Manual: Hybrid Tuning for Noobs to Early Advanced - Noddy's Guide

[Inquisitive]

With special thanks to @rfinkle2; Rob – thanks for all the links

To eTuners

Instead of flaming noobs, rather refer them to this manual. However, I need your assistance in providing the correct advice. In attempting to summarise what you have said, I may have missed the relevant points or not understand what you were saying. I have also made many assumptions. This was just my frustrating account.

Oh! I have probably missed quoting some sources correctly. Please let me know to whom the credit should go. Also, I request your assistance on where data-logs can assist with diagnosing mechanical problems.

To Noobs

Enjoy (hopefully). This manual should save you at least 600 pages of reading. Please provide me with feedback where more clarity is needed.

To Cobb

The attached material is free to use without consent from the author and this link may be used (hint) in better presenting your great products (no really). However, recognition should be given to this Forum if the material is used as part of a publication.

[Drive By Fire]

Subbed for potential.

[Mauro_Penguin]

I just skimmed through the first half, nice job. I like the fact that you gave credit to users throughout the guide as needed.

[someguy]

Sweet, nice work. Perhaps getting this on the wiki so it can evolve and grow as necessary would help I know @Enki; is working on similar things on the wiki so perhaps a collaboration of sorts is in order.

[Vansquish]

Scanned the whole thing. It looks like an excellent update to @Abilor's and @Bucker's tuning guides. Great work!

[Cujo]

subbed for l8r

[iammike]

I haven't had a chance to read yet...none the less I will applaud the work.

[it's toasted]

massive props! lots of work involved stitching all of that together, thanks!

[sidekick]

This kind of info is exactly what we need in the Wiki.

[iammike]

Has anyone else noticed this work was done by a Brownie with 5 post? Diamond in the rough anyone? lol

[Printman]

Just hit the high points and spot on. Thanks for the contribution and especially all the time you put into this. It will definitely help those inspired to self tune.

[Inquisitive]

Thanks everyone - I couldn’t have done this without everyone’s assistance.

My main fear is, although historically a discussion was headed in a certain direction (such as @Abilor;'s fuel cut first in the first ATR manual vs today's throttle close before fuel cut), that I missed the link describing the about turn in thinking. So, please test this manual for correctness. Then I can upload the next version.

Wiki: I would be happy to collaborate, but my gift is in consolidating volumes of words succinctly rather than contributing technically. Otherwise, feel free to extract anything you need from this manual. It really belongs to the forum anyway.

I am looking for the link to the VVT Section so that I can give the proper author due credit. Can anyone assist?

[skeeter149]

Thank you for this, it'd been a while since I messed with atr and wanted to double check my tune. I couldn't remember where some tables were and had forgot a lot of atr shortcuts. Awesome, thanks again!

[Jtaylor]

Sub for coming versions

[Inquisitive]

Thanks @skeeter149; I had thought about initial settings for the newbies and explanations for the advanced, but I had not considered those returning to ATR after a lapse. After some screen captures, I have added the ATR short-cuts in the Intimidating Section as they need to be introduced before the individual explanations and examples.

I have added Version Control History on page two. With this numbering scheme, it should allow for plenty of updates.

I have corrected the tagging and added L8R in the Glossary. Thanks @Drive By Fire; and @Cujo; respectively.

With some experience now, I have expanded the HPFP Internals’ installation description and turning GS: EBCS diagram being upside down working better in Modifications / Stages. I am still dialling in the later.

Oh! and I added connecting the cables to AP In Flashing Your First Map - strange omission on my part.

Surely there are better photographers than me that can produce smaller pics.. I would be happy to give you credit, if they are an improvement.

Now, I just need to read more to try and find out why my ride grinds when I try to put it in sixth unless I slightly push it towards fifth gear. I think it is the synchros, which I reported at my last ever dealership service and for which they typically did nothing. I will also read about short-shifters as they allow for some adjustments, but I digress, this is an ECU Computer Tuning forum.

[Drive By Fire]

Keep up the hard work. Very impressive effort and great execution.
Overall this is an amazing contribution to the community.
Some one get this guy VIP!

[shamie]

Very nice work. It would be great if some tuners on here would peer review it. What would be even better is if they would help with some of the strategies to wring out (safely) the most power. Sadly they keep that to themselves to protect their revenue streams.

Originally Posted by iammike Has anyone else noticed this work was done by a Brownie with 5 post?

A brownie that's been a member for 3 years. Probably spent the majority of that time to just compile this into an organized product.

[Jtaylor]

I am doing my best to translate the settings one my 08MS3 but obviously some of the settings aren't present on my year

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by shamie Very nice work. It would be great if some tuners on here would peer review it. What would be even better is if they would help with some of the strategies to wring out (safely) the most power. Sadly they keep that to themselves to protect their revenue streams.

You haven't been around very long have you? Go read almost any thread with participation by @rfinkle2; @ms3blackmica; @atvfreek; and you'll see them contributing their vast knowledge to the forum.

[phate]

Originally Posted by shamie Very nice work. It would be great if some tuners on here would peer review it. What would be even better is if they would help with some of the strategies to wring out (safely) the most power. Sadly they keep that to themselves to protect their revenue streams. A brownie that's been a member for 3 years. Probably spent the majority of that time to just compile this into an organized product.

Literally everything about how to tune these cars can be found on the forum. There are no "secrets" if you take the time to read and learn.

[phate]

I've skimmed through and found quite a bit of incorrect information. I like the format and how you did it, but I don't recommend using this guide just yet.

The E85 section makes me sad



Just went through and checked where I was quoted:

Closed Loop Tables > LTFT Learning ECT Compensation

This is an ECT compensation based on engine coolant temperature. Leave this table as is for now. This table can also be used for lowering your load target in the summer rather than pulling timing everywhere all the time. (phate) Positive numbers, but they subtract (retard) ignition timing to combat KR in warmer temperatures (f-castrillo)

I'm not sure what that is referring to, but it seems to be a mix of info that doesn't make sense. Maybe I wrote that somewhere, but it should be something like "This table can be used for lowering your <<timing>> in the summer (hot weather)"...

This and the corrected blue section's description applies to the BAT vs ECT ignition comp tables, not the LTFT ECT Comp

[shamie]

Originally Posted by nindoja You haven't been around very long have you? Go read almost any thread with participation by @rfinkle2; @ms3blackmica; @atvfreek; and you'll see them contributing their vast knowledge to the forum.

Originally Posted by phate Literally everything about how to tune these cars can be found on the forum. There are no "secrets" if you take the time to read and learn.

I’ve been around long enough thank you – and I search and read constantly. I’m very thankful for all the information here and all those who’ve contributed and continue to contribute. This platform would not be where it is without them. However as Inquisitive states in his disclaimer the direction of tuning philosophies has changed over the years (and even in the same thread) and some things work differently on the different gens so to have it all distilled in one current location would be of great value. What I was originally referring too, and sorry if I’ve never found it in my readings, is what the e-tuners are looking at and tweaking to dial in a tune in just a few revisions. Yes that knowledge is definitely on the forum but it is so wildly scattered it can be like building an engine blindfolded.

Originally Posted by phate I've skimmed through and found quite a bit of incorrect information. I like the format and how you did it, but I don't recommend using this guide just yet. The E85 section makes me sad

This is what we need more of. Everyone working together on the same guide/wiki/whatever and making it the definitive bible instead of info scattered across 2 million threads.



end rant - I'll shut up now

[Inquisitive]

@shamie; I relish peer review. Rigorous debate would result in a better guide.

@phate; Clint - thanks for the correction. Amendments have been made to LTFT Comp and BAT v ECT Comp. I will wait for you to confirm before updating the version control history.

On e85, we don’t really have yellow corn here, but I believe that your state is in the Corn Belt. We do have white maize, but we don’t put it in our tanks. Please provide supporting links. I have read the e85 kr thread, but the broader consensus seems to support the paragraph as written.

It gets hot here in summer as well. It is just that ours is six months out from yours.

The latest version includes:

· Boost fluctuations in Troubleshooting Concepts
· GS: EBCS calculation for WGDC in Modifications / Stages
· Added new section: Setting WOT Breakpoints
· Un-tick (explicit) to turn off CEL in Fuel Tables > Fuel CL Commanded EQ (Base)
· Power V in fuel table explained in Knock
· STFT zero out in Closed Loop Tables > Closed Loop - Max Load C
· Added tip in (phate) to Glossary
· Corrected orphaned table headers

[Agent_Orange]

Originally Posted by shamie What I was originally referring too, and sorry if I’ve never found it in my readings, is what the e-tuners are looking at and tweaking to dial in a tune in just a few revisions.

Uhhh, read the ATR help file?

A great tuner is like a great chef.

Sure, they can give you the recipe for what you want to make, but will your meal taste as good as theirs? Probably not, but that's because they've got years of experience making that dish, often with varying ingredients, and with varying tastes of the consumer in mind.

There's more than one way to tune a car, just like there's more than one way to cook a meal. Having the knowledge to do so isn't so easily translated to words, a chart, or an ATR table to copy & paste.

Wanna be good at cooking? Spend more time in the kitchen!

[shamie]

I'm trying to become a better cook but I don't want to blow up my kitchen getting there.

This forum is like the recipe run through a shredder and thrown to the wind. Sure it’s all there but is it easy to pull it back together and cook the dish? Not really.

I would love to get a gourmet tune from one of the e-chefs on here but where's the pride in that? I want to understand what went into my tune and why. That doesn't happen by someone just telling me what they did (and why) but still not letting into my own kitchen by keeping my tune locked. What if I want to spice up the recipe and add a little more garlic down the road? I can’t even see how much was put in to start.

I can get a lot from reading a recipe, even more from watching someone prepare a dish, but I won’t really get it until I’ve made it myself. But I would love to watch a little msf food network.

[Agent_Orange]

Originally Posted by shamie I'm trying to become a better cook but I don't want to blow up my kitchen getting there. This forum is like the recipe run through a shredder and thrown to the wind. Sure it’s all there but is it easy to pull it back together and cook the dish? Not really. I would love to get a gourmet tune from one of the e-chefs on here but where's the pride in that? I want to understand what went into my tune and why. That doesn't happen by someone just telling me what they did (and why) but still not letting into my own kitchen by keeping my tune locked. What if I want to spice up the recipe and add a little more garlic down the road? I can’t even see how much was put in to start. I can get a lot from reading a recipe, even more from watching someone prepare a dish, but I won’t really get it until I’ve made it myself. But I would love to watch a little msf food network.

Your right man. Concise information is so hard to find here.

Hey @atvfreek; @rfinkle2; @ms3blackmica; @Lex; @phate;

Can you guys get some bigger spoons to feed this guy with?

He's hungry.

[Inquisitive]

@shamie; just to tide you over until the experts chime in with a fuller response:

Philosophy

More power

Strategy

After the initial setup (defaults used by tuners (pages 20 to 43 inclusive in the guide, Version 1.00.b)), you need to first dial in your MAF, then fuel, then boost (target, then WGDC), THEN timing... (wolly6973), then VVT. (page 54 of the guide)

Process / Procedure

MAF:Calibrating the MAF on page 55 and Calibrating your WOT AFRs on page 57 and associated setting the breakpoints
Fuel: Fuel Tables > Fuel CL Commanded EQ (Base) on page 26
Boost target & WGDC: WG Duty Cycles Revisited on page 62
Timing: Ignition Advance on page 66
VVT: I need help here. I got less KR by going positive instead of negative.

Measuring

Dyno
Self-tune: “moving more quickly from 3500 to 4000 RPMs between versions” on page 52

Hmmm. I wonder if I should try to put all this into one place in the guide.

Thanks to everyone for the PMs. I can’t reply directly yet until I have 15 posts, but I am working on it.

[Inquisitive]

Version 1.01.a From the initial direction given of @skeeter149; and @shamie;, I continued and rewrote the guide. The flow has now changed from giving everything at once and then the tuning to splitting into sections for this version. This should allow the noobz to get started more quickly with table explanations and initial tuner settings. Also, the split will provide the more advanced with direct access to the goals and rules for safe performance tuning.

I have also discovered the unintended consequences of rotating the MAF and more final Grimmspeed, ECBS settings.

For a tenth of the advertised price (excluding foreign parcel shipping costs), I have made an air-box. I might include DIY instructions in the future.

[Inquisitive]

In a PM it stated that the throttle tables do not limit load. So, how can they act as safeguards?

Short answer

When one of the tables meets the load requested, the ECU is satisfied and does not command more effort from the engine.

Long answer

On page 16 I said, “The ECU will use the lowest torque target from one of these groups of tables: Throttle Table > DBW Throttle A,B & C’s Load Tables and Throttle Table > APP Transition - X Gear.” Although not mentioned in the threads read, I think that I should have added Load Tables > Throttle - Requested Load A, B & C as well.

As supporting evidence for the DBW, I quoted @Lex; “Note that targeting higher than 80% in the DBW tables prevents the ECU from modulating the throttle (boost limits throttle close table) plate to adjust for overload conditions.”

For APP, I quoted @Christian@Cobb; “These APP tables can be used to limit boost in various gears.”

For adding TRL, I quote @BlueStreak; “TRL supersedes boost targets in terms of authority in managing engine function” and @rfinkle2; “and can be used to eliminate boost spikes.”

Hybrid tuning uses boost (pressure) tuning as its basis. Boost tuning sets the load limits at three, which is completely out of the way (unobtainable). Hybrid tuning lowers the load ceiling to help prevent over boosting. It is harder to hit boost targets in warmer ambient air temperature. If you can hit your boost target in warm weather, you will definitely hit it in cold weather. In fact, you can exceed your boost target significantly in cold weather. Load also increases in winter and lowering the load limits can be used to protect your engine. By setting the loads lower in these tables, the ECU stops commanding more load and thus, safeguards the engine.

[Inquisitive]

Version: 1.01.b

Typo correction: H04 to K04 in Boost Tables

Added Load Tables > Throttle - Requested Load A, B & C in Intimidating to safeguard load tables

DIY Air-box

The DIY air-box project is in universal metric measurements. I can convert to inches, but not the sixteenth of an inch, etc. rubbish. Also, I do not know what sizes of non-metric flashing are available. So, are any volunteers able to supply this information?

Note the surprising results of the concluding table in this section showing the difference in boost air temperatures (BAT) and final BAT above ambient temperature between the DIY air-box, SRI / TIP and OEM air-box.

What’s next? I’m not sure why Stages have a short description and then some are expanded later. This needs to be reviewed / revised.

[Inquisitive]

1. Started re-grouping Modifications / Stages
2. Provided more Troubleshooting Concept examples
3. Changed from copy all to copy Shift > Load Based Fuel Compensation (Clutch out) from load 0.69 upwards to Shift > Load Based Fuel Compensation (Clutch in) as copying all causes a slight hesitation in low load situations. Sorry, got it wrong. The first two settings must not be below 1.0.
4. Acknowledged (bnoon) in the More Economy Section
5. Added coasting at idle v engine braking in More Economy

[Inquisitive]

Version: 1.01.d

Adding flesh to Modifications / Stages

Added Stages – but there is much disagreement here

Tried to include “Potential gain claimed” and “Installation time” where information is available besides just a general description.

So far, I have only started looking at product pages for CorkSport, Out There Customs, Cobb, VersaTuner, Hypertech, JBR with others being mentioned. There are many more aftermarket parts companies that need to be referenced.

I might have to move this section to a General Forum such as Mazdaspeed 3 MZR Gen2 Forums (2010-2013) >Gen2 MS3 General Discussion, to get feedback and probably a lot of criticism.That is, I am not sure if it is best to put everything in one place for easy reference or not.

Oh! Hybrid Tuning works. I hit all but one of my load limitations with my DP install and it being winter here now. Well, if you can call 50 degrees winter. In the one limit that did provide some headroom, I hit my fastest time to date for reaching that RPM.

[SpencerC]

This is an impressive amount of work. Hopefully we continue to get feedback on it so the community can benefit. Thanks for your work and help!

[SpiteFire]

Lot's of time and effort put into this and a great setup for n00bz like me to read. Sub'd for updates, revisions and feedback. Keep up the good work!

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by Inquisitive Version: 1.01.d Adding flesh to Modifications / Stages Added Stages – but there is much disagreement here Tried to include “Potential gain claimed” and “Installation time” where information is available besides just a general description. So far, I have only started looking at product pages for CorkSport, Out There Customs, Cobb, VersaTuner, Hypertech, JBR with others being mentioned. There are many more aftermarket parts companies that need to be referenced. I might have to move this section to a General Forum such as Mazdaspeed 3 MZR Gen2 Forums (2010-2013) >Gen2 MS3 General Discussion, to get feedback and probably a lot of criticism.That is, I am not sure if it is best to put everything in one place for easy reference or not. Oh! Hybrid Tuning works. I hit all but one of my load limitations with my DP install and it being winter here now. Well, if you can call 50 degrees winter. In the one limit that did provide some headroom, I hit my fastest time to date for reaching that RPM.

FYI, as a bit of an IP Legal nerd, technically-speaking, you do have a copyright in this manual. To have a copyright, you must have created an original work and fixed it in a tangible medium of expression which lasts for more than a transient time. By compiling all this stuff and sticking it in a file you've achieved the first two requirements, and by saving it to your computer (much less MSF), you've fixed it for more than a transient amount of time.

The only thing you'd have to do to protect your rights in it would be to register it with the US Copyright Office.

...and now back to our regularly-scheduled programming...

[Inquisitive]

@Vansquish; I take your point. However, I will not be pursuing my rights largely due to the expense of registering and legal costs in defending, especially across jurisdictions.Technically, the IP was created in South Africa. By its creation here, I can just cite that it is protected in terms of our relevant copyright acts, which does not require registration. As a corollary, for protection patents have to be registered in each country although some larger bodies, such as the European Union, honour patents across their countries. International treaties seem weak on this topic.

My point was more for our very efficient tax authorities thinking that I was (round tripping) giving away IP or nil value intangible assets to a conflicted party and then selling goods or services for pay in order to accumulate foreign reserves contravening our foreign exchange policies.

I should probably have rather said that the material is free to use without consent from the author, but recognition should be given to the author if the material is used as part of a publication even though a "nom de plume", Inquisitive in this case, was used.

Oh! BTW, I have a lawyer that reports to me.

[Vansquish]

You are, of course, correct. I completely glossed over on the fact that you're from across the pond (and quite a bit South too)! I also understand the reasons for not pursuing protection. At this point, perhaps the best thing to do is call it a sort of "open source" project, as in effect, it is.

At any rate, it's always good to see progress being made, and it's even better to find someone else who is, at least moderately, interested in the law of intellectual property!

[Inquisitive]

I have to rewrite the Calibrating your WOT AFRs Section. If one serially applies Actual AFR (AFR) divided by the Targeted AFR for load, one eventually goes too lean. On the other hand if one serially applies Targeted AFR divided by the Actual AFR (AFR) for load, one goes too rich. Both produce KR. I now have to describe using bounded sets and the strategy required in employing them.

Version:1.01.e

Added Versatuner potential gain

Added more info about Hypertech

Finished adding James Barone Racing (JBR) info

Added spark plug defoulers and CNT and CS experience to DP

Added Long / Full DPdefinition (MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex)

Started thread in Gen2 MS3 General Discussion for just the Modifications / Stages Section @ Inquisitive'sMS3 normal progression of modifications (stages)

[Inquisitive]

Version 1.01.f

Rewrote Calibrating your WOT AFRs as serial applications of Actual AFR (AFR) divided by the Targeted AFR for load resulted in going too lean and Targeted AFR divided by the Actual AFR (AFR) for load calculations resulted in going too rich. Both producing KRs.
Added Knock Tables pulls timing then dumps fuel at KR 5-6 (Ziggo)
Added performance claim: Hitachi PTP
Added CP-E Standback to Piggyback in ECU
Added five CAI vendors
Expanded JBR and added seven vendors to SRI / TIP
Added CP-E to RMM
Added purpose and sensor explanation to Cat-less
Added three DP vendors, two O2 bung extension vendors and added aluminium foil v polish smell and heat blanket vendor to DP
Added three vendors to Race-pipe (aka Test pipe)
Added four vendors to Long / Full DP
Added four vendors to CBE and expanded existing descriptions
Added another Forge product and vendor to BPV
Added BOV and BPV / BOV Combinations Sections with two and six vendors respectively
Added a vendor to IC
Added “Fully Bolted” definition (Yousuf)
Added two vendors and three products to ECBS
Added Manual BCS Section and two vendors
Added CP-E to WMI
Added CP-E and Ingalls to Suspension
Added PCV explanation (JBR) and more to JBR description to OCC
Added over-tightening head bolt caution to EGR
Expanded CP-E products in Forged Pistons
Added vendor to Tank Pump
Added three vendors to EM
Added Exhaust Wrap and IM Sections with a vendor each; the IM product description was very interesting to me as I not come across this before.
Added E85 timing (specially for @phate; )


Many thanks for the anonymous sponsorship to VIP membership, which has opened another forum section full of information. This is much appreciated.

[Inquisitive]

Version 1.01.g

Added to the Mazda 3 OBD Codes table definition for P0038: “(second heated (H) oxygen (O2) sensor (S))” – “H02S” as I originally thought that someone had misrepresented water (H20) lol

Added VTCS to Glossary
Expanded Fully Bolted definition
Added a code P0038 beside P0420 to un-tick codes in DP
Added JBR bypass hose to BPV
Expanded OTC and TurboXS an added Ultimate Racing, ATP, ETS and JBR to IC
Added SpeedPerf6manc3 to ECBS
Added Turbosmart and Cobb to Waste-gate Actuator
Added the various bar Bosch and PNP to MAP
Added Apexi Auto Turbo Timer to BT
Work in progress on the Nitrous Section: benefits, equipment required, vendors: Edelbrock, NOS, NX, Zex - my concern is that pistons & con rods should precede Nitrous
Added NX Stage II to WMI
Added Crower and SuperTech Valve Springs to Camshafts
Added D2, H&R and Tein to Coil-overs
Added a Shocks Section to Suspension and vendor: Bilstein
Added a Springs Section to Suspension and vendors: Cobb, Eibach, H&R, Tanabe
Added a Bars Section to Suspension and vendors: SPC, Megan, GTSPEC
Added SpeedPerf6manc3 to Pistons
Added Manley and Cunningham to Con Rods
Added SpeedPerf6manc3 to Larger fuel injectors
Added VTCS Delete to Port and polishing intake manifold and vendor: SpeedPerf6manc3
Added DBA and EBC to Brake disc upgrade
Added Clutch Section and vendors: ACT and ClutchMasters
Added Flywheel Section and vendor: Fidanza
Added Brass Shift Fork Pads Section and vendor: SpeedPerf6manc3
Expanded SpeedPerf6manc3 products in Short and Long blocks
Added Fan Controller Section and vendor: SpeedPerf6manc3

Added new Title: Rice Section – Lights and extra bits are usually included in this category, but I wasn’t sure if everyone would agree that Wheels belong here as well – perhaps if they are stock size they would, but those accommodating larger tyres would be considered “Performance”?