ETUNE RESULTS THIS GOOD?

[Ms3 noob]

I just finished being tuned by a reputable remote tuner. Anyone wanna take a look at the logs and let me know what they think? It took about 3 map revisions.

Not sure what to expect for a car with my parts.

I have the following parts
2012 MS3 54k miles
-COBB SRI + TIH
-COBB BPV
-COBB catted DP
-Autotech HPFP internal
-COBB RMM, JBR 80duro PMM
-Resonator delete and stock catback
-NGK 1 step colder spark plugs gapped .026
-93 oct tune, live in Chicago usually 10% ethanol fuel


The attached logs were taken on the following conditions:
Temp - 44F Pressure 29.90
about 250 lbs my weight and other items
good tread on tires just rotated

[mituc]

This is about as much the factory turbo can flow through the factory TMIC. Upgrade that and you will be able to squeeze 20-25 more HP.

Also, keep in mind that Virtual Dyno reads relatively low starting from like 2 years ago. So you can take those figures as wheel power/torque.

One thing that you did wrong was not to take a log BEFORE starting the tuning process. If you did that you'd have seen the real gain which most probably is around 40-45hp peak and possibly a lot more around the peak point.

Yet there's more left on the table with that tune judging by those logs, on the other hand if the weather will get hot you may or may not want to have upped it.

[Ms3 noob]

Yeah you're right about not taking initial logs, dropped the ball there lol. Thanks for the feedback tho. I had no idea the front mount intercooler made that much of a diff. Next part i'll buy for sure.

The previous map before the final one had +/- 10 more HP/TRQ but i ran into some WOT knock which peaked at 1.97 . The tuner said he pulled timing and sent me a final map.

You think these HP/TRQ numbers good for my part setup?

[speed23]

Yeah, with better gas could run another 2 or 3 degrees timing on the top end (10-12 hp),but if it was knockin with more then what you got is what you can. Maybe consider an e30 tune if you need more?

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by mituc Also, keep in mind that Virtual Dyno reads relatively low starting from like 2 years ago. So you can take those figures as wheel power/torque.

I noticed this observation above. Are you saying that perhaps we should now use Dynojet CF with the current VD program rather than the 1.01 most of havebeen using for many years?

Just curious.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 I noticed this observation above. Are you saying that perhaps we should now use Dynojet CF with the current VD program rather than the 1.01 most of havebeen using for many years?

No, I was only saying that the same log gives lower figures now in VD than it did in the previous versions of VD a few years back.

[g00s3y]

Why are people always scared to say their tuner's name? Either the tuner isn't confident in their work, or it's a self tune, and the poster isn't confident in it.

VD has always read low for me. When comparing VD to actual dyno's I had, VD was always lower than what I actually dynoed.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by g00s3y Why are people always scared to say their tuner's name?

In the past there have been a lot of tuner fan wars that led to nothing good.
While each tuner has his own definition for safety and reliability, when some people want reliable (or don't know what they want so their tuner plays safe) and others want "full-kill-I-don't-care-I-have-2-spare-engines" it's kind of normal that from similar setups different tuners extract different power/torque figures.

While in general customers have a different understanding or tolerance on what "risk" means, it's the same with different tuners. People in general will take or pursue willingly a different level/amount of risk.

[shamie]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 I noticed this observation above. Are you saying that perhaps we should now use Dynojet CF with the current VD program rather than the 1.01 most of havebeen using for many years? Just curious.

I've always used the Dynojet CF with the SAE corrections for baro etc. It gives me very close to what the actual dynos (Dynojet BTW) are around here. I never drank the CF 1.01 Kool-Aid.

[Carskick]

I've had the same debate with people online before. I was first posting logs showing 290HP with the DynoJet numbers, and people freaked out saying it was lies, and I was about 273 or so with 1.01.

Honestly, none of this truly maters. What matters is the shape of the curve and the before and after improvements.

Once I started tuning E30 and upgraded my clutch, I can't even hold traction in 3rd gear. Now I'm waiting on 18x8.5 wheels and 245/40R18 to come in the mail and have put on so I can get the power to the ground.

Last, I second the upgraded intercooler. From what I understand, stock limits flow, reducing top end power. I'm very happy with my ETS TMIC, though it does heat soak when it sits around. Even if a go BT, I won't go real big, and will probably stick with the TMIC. Gives the sleeper look on the outside, requires fewer mods and complexities, etc. Of course, you'll find many that swear by their front mount and will have it no other way.

[mituc]

To be honest I quit chasing numbers when comparing to others. I use these numbers only to compare my own progress between tune revisions.
When comparing to others a 60-100mph pull in 4th, 80-180kmph, or 100-200kmph will simply do. Power figures will not tell the whole story about how fast a car is, but acceleration times will do exactly that.

[Db09ms3]

Numbers won't mean shit if you can't drive. Just saiyan

[mituc]

Originally Posted by Db09ms3 Numbers won't mean shit if you can't drive. Just saiyan

Given the topic of this thread I have a hard time understanding if you're referring to yourself, in general, or to someone in particular.

[Db09ms3]

In general

[mituc]

And how does it help the discussion?

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by mituc To be honest I quit chasing numbers when comparing to others. I use these numbers only to compare my own progress between tune revisions. When comparing to others a 60-100mph pull in 4th, 80-180kmph, or 100-200kmph will simply do. Power figures will not tell the whole story about how fast a car is, but acceleration times will do exactly that.

Same, here. A 60-100 mph 4th gear pull timed by logging or even with a simple stopwatch is a very useful thing for comparison purposes if done on the same roadway in the same direction on the same vehicle. Simple and direct. And if done while datalogging you have both your engine logging and acceleration all-in-one.

My only reason for asking the question about Virtual Dyno correction factors is that I agree that if you run the same log through VD's present program and compare it to the same log run through the program as it existed several years ago, there is a difference. The new program reports lower numbers for the same log.

That made me think that the VD developer was tweaking the Dynojet correction factor to correct for it over-reporting power in the past. Ultimately, the value of the program, like with real dynos, is not for comparison between vehicles, but to compare changes on the same vehicle, dyno and conditions.

BTW: Is anyone playing with the new GPS based time/speed/distance logger called "Dragy"?

I created another thread here about it but don't see much of a response. It's a fast processor multi-satellite GPS based calculator. It's pretty neat and seems to be the next best thing to a real dragstrip run according to those who have done simultaneous logging while running on a real certified quarter mile dragstrip. Seems to be at least as accurate as the far more expensive and bulky VBox. I just got one and am adding it to my electronic "toolbox" to go along with traditional OBD II datalogging, code scanners, VD charts and now the Dragy generated timeslips. Have not had time to do any runs with my MS3 and only one test run on my daily driver SUV, just for shits an giggles.

It's all good for tuning if used sensibly and not taken too serioiusly.

[Fstrnyou]

Those numbers are similar to where I was on the K04 in my MS6. Only mods were 3.5" intake and CS resonator. 18psi from 3500 to redline and around 70F.
I tried turning it up but had to pull so much timing due to KR that I ended up having no HP gain. So I rolled the boost back to a reasonable level and sent it.

[Theredmazdaguy]

I wouldn't say it's bad for not upgrading the cooler and exhaust.

[speed23]

Catback is minimal gains, but maybe a "cooler" has big gains? Lol

[Theredmazdaguy]

I just think 260 is low for what he has / what is done to the car. Should be closer to 300 or a little over imo. But that's my 2 cents

[shamie]

300 with just an intake and DP? Dream on.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by shamie 300 with just an intake and DP? Dream on.

Agreed. Even with intake, DP, TMIC, & E30 tune, you'll be lucky to get close to 300. Stock Turbo limits top end way too much unless you get aggressive with Meth or fueling.

[Theredmazdaguy]

Originally Posted by shamie 300 with just an intake and DP? Dream on.

That's not all he did to his car but ok

Originally Posted by Carskick Agreed. Even with intake, DP, TMIC, & E30 tune, you'll be lucky to get close to 300. Stock Turbo limits top end way too much unless you get aggressive with Meth or fueling.

I disagree, seent it many times actually idk how you come to that conclusion lol. Intake 10hp, new Tmic, 15, dp and exhaust 35 60 right there roughly maybe 50 depending. Etune, ethanol adds like 50hp off the bat lol. So no its not impossible to hit 300 to 320 very easy.

[Fstrnyou]

320 is absolutely maxing out the K04 on pump gas. It's just not capable of flowing enough and it will be torch hot.

[Theredmazdaguy]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou 320 is absolutely maxing out the K04 on pump gas. It's just not capable of flowing enough and it will be torch hot.

Yeah, it's what it's capable of lol. I've also seen these cars tuned right and fully fine temperature wise. It's not impossible it's what it is. Hpfp, intercooler, exhaust, dp, etune. Easy all day

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by Theredmazdaguy That's not all he did to his car but ok I disagree, seent it many times actually idk how you come to that conclusion lol. Intake 10hp, new Tmic, 15, dp and exhaust 35 60 right there roughly maybe 50 depending. Etune, ethanol adds like 50hp off the bat lol. So no its not impossible to hit 300 to 320 very easy.

So to be fair, it depends on your CF. I've been using 1.01 CF lately to be conservative, but if I put my E33 results on the DynoJet CF, I'm peaking over 300HP. This is my first E33 tune. I'm on my second now, but I haven't had a chance to do runs. There's definitely still power on the table in these runs. So I may get to 310-320HP with my current build, maxing out the fuel. But I did get to about 290 on pump fuel using the DynoJet CF. I doubt I'll get the 50HP increase from going to E33, I'd likely have to go over E50 to get that kind of jump on a K04.

[Fstrnyou]

In the case of OP...
GenPu with better TMIC and cold Chicago air is certainly a combo that will allow the setup to yield better results.

[Theredmazdaguy]

Originally Posted by Carskick So to be fair, it depends on your CF. I've been using 1.01 CF lately to be conservative, but if I put my E33 results on the DynoJet CF, I'm peaking over 300HP. This is my first E33 tune. I'm on my second now, but I haven't had a chance to do runs. There's definitely still power on the table in these runs. So I may get to 310-320HP with my current build, maxing out the fuel. But I did get to about 290 on pump fuel using the DynoJet CF. I doubt I'll get the 50HP increase from going to E33, I'd likely have to go over E50 to get that kind of jump on a K04.

Yeah that makes more sense to me right there. There's no way you aren't close, at, or a little above 300 hp with all the mods and the e30 tune. You'd be surprised how much horsepower comes from just e85. Obviously with bigger turbos it is more visible but its why everyone runs e30 because it's easy horse power right at the pump

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by Theredmazdaguy Yeah that makes more sense to me right there. There's no way you aren't close, at, or a little above 300 hp with all the mods and the e30 tune. You'd be surprised how much horsepower comes from just e85. Obviously with bigger turbos it is more visible but its why everyone runs e30 because it's easy horse power right at the pump

I'm sure pure E85 adds a ton of HP potential. But I'm not willing to do the maintenance to keep the fuel system clean. Plus, I'm trying to keep my MPG at around 20. The gas tanks in these cars are too damn small for under 20MPG, IMHO. (DD Problems)

Anyways, yeah, I could see E85 adding 50HP capability over 93oct.

[Fstrnyou]

Not to get off topic and sorry for being a stickler about this, but E85 doesnt add power. Timing does. You can't just put E85 in your tank and feel a difference. I'm sure that's what you meant, but I want to make sure others that read this will understand.

And if memory serves, you see the most gains up to E30 or so and it's diminishing returns after that. Light mixes like E30 don't need the black-death prevention maintenance. There's enough gasoline going thru to keep it clean.

No doubt, E85 works. But like some, I'm not building or tuning to rely on a fuel that could be difficult to get at times or go thru the annoyance of pumping twice with each fill up and doing the math to be sure the mix is correct. You can have fun without E85...or meth for that matter.

[MSMS3]

Yes, ethanol permits more aggressive timing advance at higher boost levels without knock. That's how the extra power is made. It is a more efficient form of the cylinder cooling concept that some pump gas tunes use by going very rich at high rpm under WOT and cranking up the timing. The cooling effect of ethanol lets you get even more aggressive.

Again, the limiting factor is the flow rate of the K04. I can get to 300 to 305 whp on my tune with 93 octane pump gas. Have posted VD 1.01 CF charts at various times showing that. A mild ethanol tune in the E-30 range will get you up to about 320 whp and then you hit a wall.

The K04 can produce very high, rod bending torque at lower rpm if you are not careful in how you tune, however. But the turbo can't sustain that at high rpm. Personally, I can't use all that torque down low now that some tunes are producing.

I think those tunes are for show, because even with my very sticky extreme performance tires, they just go up in smoke, burning all the way through second. Wasted at best and an explanation for bent rods at worse. There's only so much you can do and a tune on pump gas. A tune that gets you a safe 300/300 whp and torque on pump gas, regardless of how you get there, is a pretty damn good tune for a daily driven FWD car.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by shamie 300 with just an intake and DP? Dream on.

Living the dream, but maxed out.

Of course the intake is a good one, the downpipe/racepipe is 3" and catless (yes, HPFP internals upgrade). The tune has very aggressive timing up top, about 18-19 degrees with rich AFR and 18-18.5 psi boost with taper to about 14 at 6,100 and down to 12 at redline, and the fuel is 93 octane.

And, yes, this is the often derided Hypertech tune. Those who have not used it with most bolt on mods don't understand what it can do in adapting to those mods.

Despite all the naysayers, it is very difficult to improve on it if you are on the K04 and pump gas.

Once you go to ethanol blends or change to bigger, higher flowing turbos or exotic manifolds or larger than stock intake diameters, then Hypertech will not work and you need AP or Versatune or such.

Not trying to turn this into a tuning war, AP and Versatune do a little better with custom tunes, do noticeably better with ethanol, but, again, once you max out the turbo, it no longer matters which tune. You are at the wall.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Living the dream, but maxed out. Of course the intake is a good one, the downpipe/racepipe is 3" and catless (yes, HPFP internals upgrade). The tune has very aggressive timing up top, about 18-19 degrees with rich AFR and 18-18.5 psi boost with taper to about 14 at 6,100 and down to 12 at redline, and the fuel is 93 octane. And, yes, this is the often derided Hypertech tune. Those who have not used it with most bolt on mods don't understand what it can do in adapting to those mods. Despite all the naysayers, it is very difficult to improve on it if you are on the K04 and pump gas. Once you go to ethanol blends or change to bigger, higher flowing turbos or exotic manifolds or larger than stock intake diameters, then Hypertech will not work and you need AP or Versatune or such. Not trying to turn this into a tuning war, AP and Versatune do a little better with custom tunes, do noticeably better with ethanol, but, again, once you max out the turbo, it no longer matters which tune. You are at the wall.

Interesting power & fuel curve. Appears very consistent. I see you have BNR S1, but that should be close to stock, do you have upgraded intercooler? I have TP, but not a full DP. How much KR do you encounter. I see you have it really conservative with low end torque as well.

My tune is Justin@Freektune. And this is my E33 basetune after finishing 93 oct. So as we tweak, I'm sure it will get even better. He has me boosting to 20psi in the mid range, then it tappers to about 16 or 17PSI. Seems to hold 11.8-11.2 AFR throughout the RPM range, compensating aggressively if I see a KR blip. Once I'm fully boosting at around 2800RPM, I'm at 0 Ignition advance and it ranges up to 12.5 at Redline.

I'm curious if Justin@Freektune has experimented with the variable AFR like you have. You're also running less boost and more Spark Advanced the the Freektune. I've read several others say this yields more power, but also the TMIC flows more.

I'm sure this debate has been encountered before. I just do my runs and send the info to the pros and hope they make it right. I look at the numbers myself, but I'm not the "expert!"

@Fstrnyou In response to above, I'll edit my post to clarify that Ethanol doesn't magically add power, just raises effective octane. I originally wasn't going to Ethanol tune at all, but was convinced that E30 is magic with little to no chance of problems. Most seem to think that E48 and above is where you starting having black death and other issues. However, since switching to E30 5 months ago, my fuel gauge seems less accurate...

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by Carskick Interesting power & fuel curve. Appears very consistent. I see you have BNR S1, but that should be close to stock, do you have upgraded intercooler? I have TP, but not a full DP. How much KR do you encounter. I see you have it really conservative with low end torque as well. My tune is Justin@Freektune. And this is my E33 basetune after finishing 93 oct. So as we tweak, I'm sure it will get even better. He has me boosting to 20psi in the mid range, then it tappers to about 16 or 17PSI. Seems to hold 11.8-11.2 AFR throughout the RPM range, compensating aggressively if I see a KR blip. Once I'm fully boosting at around 2800RPM, I'm at 0 Ignition advance and it ranges up to 12.5 at Redline. I'm curious if Justin@Freektune has experimented with the variable AFR like you have. You're also running less boost and more Spark Advanced the the Freektune. I've read several others say this yields more power, but also the TMIC flows more. I'm sure this debate has been encountered before. I just do my runs and send the info to the pros and hope they make it right. I look at the numbers myself, but I'm not the "expert!" @Fstrnyou In response to above, I'll edit my post to clarify that Ethanol doesn't magically add power, just raises effective octane. I originally wasn't going to Ethanol tune at all, but was convinced that E30 is magic with little to no chance of problems. Most seem to think that E48 and above is where you starting having black death and other issues. However, since switching to E30 5 months ago, my fuel gauge seems less accurate...

Lots of ways to make power. My approach is soft down low where rods get bent. When you launch you overcome traction in first and second and have to feather the throttle anyway. By the top of second and each upshift then and after, you are way over 4,000 rpm, so the softer bottom end does not matter and you are kicking ass with a very aggressive top end. Note how it holds power all the way to redline even with tapered boost. Timing is doing that. No KR. Zero. Stock TMIC. It will heat soak on multiple pulls, though. Just didn't want the turbo lag of FMIC. Been there on other cars.

Other approaches work, too. Some tuners like more boost, less timing and leaner AFR. Its a balancing act. But, when you hit the K04 efficiency wall differences no longer matter unless you are helping the cooling a bit more with ethanol and up timing a bit more.

The BNR S1 is a recent change. It was not in place on that log. It is still a K04 snail. The Garrett guts flow the same, so no real power gain or loss. Done to stop the blown seals and smoking of the K04, no doubt aggravated by the 3" catless dp/rp. BNR S1 does not smoke.

[Fstrnyou]

I too kept my K04 tame below 3000 then it ramped up quick by 3500. Still drove perfectly fine. We have a torque motor to begin with. As my buddy likes to call it, a truck motor with a turbo.