stock dyno & Cobb v-dyno numbers

[garf]

So I'v had my car for about 2 years now and it's been great. A few months after I picked it up I ran it on a dyno bone stock. Since then I'v done a few things, (cobb accessport, cobb intake, cpe rmm, and running the stage 1 sf 93 oct tune) I'v been fiddling around with the virtual dyno on AP and have found a road to do what I think is a pretty decent test. Of course I know it's not accurate and there are times when I get 800hp readings but I'v run my datalogs through a program called virtual dyno as well and it's giving me what I would think (roughly) I'd be getting from an intake and tune.

p.s. I have no idea if it would effect anything but since I'v owned the car I'v ran 93 octane 100% gas, so no ethanol.

first is my stock dyno sheet (keep in mind it's on a dynojet and was about 50 degrees outside)

next is my datalog in 4th gear after being put through Virtual dyno. The reason (I think) I'm getting such low hp numbers compared to tq is I'm running out of room to pull all the way through the rpm range, but if I had to take an uneducated guess I'd put it around peaking at 260ish.

Last is my datalog itself for those curious. (done today its about 68 and sunny)

Why am I posting this?

because I no longer have access to my orginal dyno (business went under) and want to be able to track my progress.

Also I figured it would be good to show people who are looking to get a little power but not do a major build what that can expect, and if any of the experienced folks on here want to chime in if I'm way off base with my readings or have any suggestions they're welcome to do so.

[capblueberry]

Hows your fuel pressure holding up with these mods?

[maisonvi]

Change your VD correction factor to 1.01 for more accurate results (typically)

[Lakespeed6]

Please go get HPFP internals. You can see in your log the pressure is dropping into the low 1600s.
Also stop using the Cobb VD it sucks, Virtual Dyno is much more accurate.
Make sure to input current temp and pressure to stay consistent when using VD, and the 1.01 correction factor.

And wtf is will 3 back to back dyno pulls ranging from 246HP-205HP and 275TQ-205TQ

[garf]

Lakespeed6, I very well might be wrong but is 1650 the target for HPFP? I was under the impression that about 1500 is fine and if you get into the 1400-1500 range then you're in trouble? But I'll repost the VD after setting a 1.01 correction

As for the huge drop in back to back dyno runs, yea dudes who were running the dynoday had one shitty fan 15 ft away and seemed to either not know much or not give a shit so I heat soaked like a motherfucker.

After doing two more runs today and switching the correction factor to 1.01 here's what I'm showing. And I'v put the datalogs again, from a quick glance I see the lowest HPFP to be a 1616 in 4th.

The green bar is the same run from before after accounting for the temp and the correction factor. Dropped from 243hp/291tq to 223hp/267tq. Still I'm happy with the numbers, for a car thats only running an intake + tune I feel like its decent.

[Lakespeed6]

Originally Posted by garf After doing two more runs today and switching the correction factor to 1.01 here's what I'm showing. And I'v put the datalogs again, from a quick glance I see the lowest HPFP to be a 1616 in 4th. The green bar is the same run from before after accounting for the temp and the correction factor. Dropped from 243hp/291tq to 223hp/267tq. Still I'm happy with the numbers, for a car thats only running an intake + tune I feel like its decent.

Column J on you logs shows the targeted HPFP. Target is 1669.
Yes 1616 isn't bad but it's still under target, you should be OK but I would monitor and seriously think about upgrading in the near future.

Also be careful going full throttle @ 2500RPM like you did in datalog18, these engines like to ventilate blocks with added torque in the low RPM.
You can see the engine knocking till 3000RPM.

looks good otherwise. Now go get a HPFP and custom tune and really enjoy the car.

[maisonvi]

Originally Posted by garf Lakespeed6, I very well might be wrong but is 1650 the target for HPFP? I was under the impression that about 1500 is fine and if you get into the 1400-1500 range then you're in trouble? But I'll repost the VD after setting a 1.01 correction As for the huge drop in back to back dyno runs, yea dudes who were running the dynoday had one shitty fan 15 ft away and seemed to either not know much or not give a shit so I heat soaked like a motherfucker.

The problem is this logic is when it fails you can be done. People say "my stuff is hitting XXXX so Im fine" then all of a sudden its cold out one day and they join the ZZB club.

[garf]

Lakespeed6, yea I wasn't to happy about WOT at 2,500 but where I was at I had to start a little sooner than expected (traffic) wanted to stay well away from any other cars but you're 100% right, I try and stay off WOT under 3k. I'v seen Freektune post on FB about not needing a HPFP to do a custom tune if I'v only got intake or intake/CBE. I'm not looking to chase numbers and after an exhaust (doesn't do much from what I hear) I'll be done power modding for a while. HPFP will happen if I never decide to increase more power or Freek suggest I need one to stay safe after consulting with him though!

[Lakespeed6]

FYI just a custom tune will pick you up about 20hp and 20tq.
Add HPFP internals and you'll be able to make more.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by garf After doing two more runs today and switching the correction factor to 1.01 here's what I'm showing. And I'v put the datalogs again, from a quick glance I see the lowest HPFP to be a 1616 in 4th. The green bar is the same run from before after accounting for the temp and the correction factor. Dropped from 243hp/291tq to 223hp/267tq. Still I'm happy with the numbers, for a car thats only running an intake + tune I feel like its decent.

With an intake and a tune, you can make a lot more than you're making. The OTS tunes are pretty shitty. A decent E-tune can net you another 30-40whp and probably another 30-50wtq as well...provided that you've got upgraded HPFP internals as well.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by garf Lakespeed6, yea I wasn't to happy about WOT at 2,500 but where I was at I had to start a little sooner than expected (traffic) wanted to stay well away from any other cars but you're 100% right, I try and stay off WOT under 3k. I'v seen Freektune post on FB about not needing a HPFP to do a custom tune if I'v only got intake or intake/CBE. I'm not looking to chase numbers and after an exhaust (doesn't do much from what I hear) I'll be done power modding for a while. HPFP will happen if I never decide to increase more power or Freek suggest I need one to stay safe after consulting with him though!

You wont "need" HPFP internals with a custom tune because a tuner can change the tune specifically for your vehicle making it safer.

A Cobb OTS map is a blanket tune for all vehicles. Sometimes performs well, other times not so much.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by taf0422 You wont "need" HPFP internals with a custom tune because a tuner can change the tune specifically for your vehicle making it safer.

True, I even ran a catted aftermarket downpipe, upgraded TMIC, upgraded intake, and a custom-tune designed to account for the OE HPFP's frailty, and the car made ~280awhp/~310awtq, but...

The OE pump works until it doesn't, and it doesn't give you any real warning when it starts to crap out.

So it's better for all parties involved for this guy to have upgraded HPFP internals installed.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by Vansquish True, I even ran a catted aftermarket downpipe, upgraded TMIC, upgraded intake, and a custom-tune designed to account for the OE HPFP's frailty, and the car made ~280awhp/~310awtq, but... The OE pump works until it doesn't, and it doesn't give you any real warning when it starts to crap out. So it's better for all parties involved for this guy to have upgraded HPFP internals installed.

I justifying his quote from Justin saying he didnt need HPFP internals to tune... He may not "need" them but I still wouldn't brush it under the rug either..

[garf]

Taf0422, Once I get the cash together to do a custom etune I'm gonna consult Freek and see what he things. If he recommends a HPFP first to stay safe I'll put the tune on hold and go for it. If he thinks I'll be alright running stock (just won't make as much power) I'll trust his judgement. Like I said, I'm not looking to chase high numbers, just have some fun within my limits.

Vansquish, A HPFP is gonna happen at some point down the road. The main reason it hasn't been my top priority is because I'm not wanting to push my car to its limit and don't do really any hard driving (engine wise). Now, that being said, if after it's looked over during a custom tune and is a concern, it will happen first. I'm already happy with the power I'm making now, being able to stick with my friends 350z is good enough atm

[Lakespeed6]

Originally Posted by garf Taf0422, Once I get the cash together to do a custom etune I'm gonna consult Freek and see what he things. If he recommends a HPFP first to stay safe I'll put the tune on hold and go for it. If he thinks I'll be alright running stock (just won't make as much power) I'll trust his judgement. Like I said, I'm not looking to chase high numbers, just have some fun within my limits. Vansquish, A HPFP is gonna happen at some point down the road. The main reason it hasn't been my top priority is because I'm not wanting to push my car to its limit and don't do really any hard driving (engine wise). Now, that being said, if after it's looked over during a custom tune and is a concern, it will happen first. I'm already happy with the power I'm making now, being able to stick with my friends 350z is good enough atm

The HPFP will fail eventually even at the power you are at. A custom tune will be safer but still not 100%safe.
Get the internals then get the tune. You will be able to get much more power and not have to monitor your HPFP each time you go wot wondering if it will hold.

Trust me I was there right along with @Vansquish; Intake, Intercooler, DP, exhaust, and custom tune.
Sure it worked but I was worried every time I floored it.

[garf]

I do really appreciate you guys looking out for me and my engine.

[Lakespeed6]

Originally Posted by garf I do really appreciate you guys looking out for me and my engine.

Some of us have blown up their fair share already
<<<<<<<<<<

[garf]

Just Figured I'd update here. I'm almost a year into running the stage 1 ots map with a Cobb intake and the stock HPFP and have had zero issues out of the car. I don't know what others have done to cause their HPFP to fail with only an intake, but it must have been drastic.

[g00s3y]

Because an ots map doesn't push the car hard at all.

It's nothing drastic, get some cold temps, overboost to 18+psi a bunch of times while going WOT, your fuel pump won't be able to keep up. One of the times you go WOT next, your engine will blow because you didn't want to spend $350 on something to protect your car.

[Bingo]

We keep bringing up the same idea because it remains something that really needs to be done. While it's possible on some occasions to be okay with said intake and tune, it's at least equally likely to not be okay. As previously stated, the car running fine for a year is no indication that your fuel pump will be fine in a day, a week, or a month. The point is, whether you realize it or not, you're playing with fire. The pump is the best money you can spend on these cars and will eliminate (in your case) 95% of the chance of your motor suddenly and unexpectedly not having a fun time. People with the same setup as you have been through the forums with a frown while their 3 cylinder Speed sits in the driveway under a sheet, and we don't want to see it happen again.

[texasboy21]

You dont install internals to "push" the car, you install them to keep the engine in one piece. Its not as binary as XX mods require internals. Its a matter of WHEN fueling will not be able to keep up one you begin to mod. A tune only, intake only, intake and tune, cat back, etc. - doesnt matter. Given the right circumstances, the pump wont keep up and your engine will blow. One year ago you werent hitting your boost targets, how do they look now?

[g00s3y]

Also, just to get back on the main topic of actual dyno vs Virtual Dyno numbers. Another friend I tune, just went on the dyno this past weekend. Unfinished tune, 18.5psi max, k04, e33 mix, hpfp, 3" intake, 3" dp, cx fmic. VD (dynojet cf) was showing ~300/320 in all his logs, dyno came out at 301/321.

On another note, fuck cf=1.01. 3 cars now I've verified by tuning, virtual dyno, and a real dyno. Everyone is closer on dynojet correction factors then the "msf approved" cf=1.01. Maybe that was working back when VD didn't have the correct settings, or whatever. But now, it comes within +/-5 hp/tq with the people I tune.

But Cobb "AP Dyno" is a total joke, and never to be taken seriously.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by g00s3y But Cobb "AP Dyno" is a total joke, and never to be taken seriously.

GFY my bolt on K04 car DOES have 515whp.

[garf]

Originally Posted by g00s3y Because an ots map doesn't push the car hard at all. It's nothing drastic, get some cold temps, overboost to 18+psi a bunch of times while going WOT, your fuel pump won't be able to keep up. One of the times you go WOT next, your engine will blow because you didn't want to spend $350 on something to protect your car.

So what you're saying is that the ots maps are not pushing my car outside of the limits of the stock HPFP... isn't that what it's suppose to do?

And overboost to 18+ psi a bunch of time? why would I do this? Does this car have a history of overboost issues by design? Because if so (serious not sarcasm here) whats the cause and I'll fix that?

I actually have autotech hpfp internals at the house right now. I finally caved because of an upcoming track day and picked it up along with a few other things just for extra precaution. HOWEVER, I still stand by the hpfp thing is either way blown out of per-portion or these engines are a joke and although I've enjoyed my Mazda I won't be buying another of their turbo motors.

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by garf So what you're saying is that the ots maps are not pushing my car outside of the limits of the stock HPFP... isn't that what it's suppose to do? And overboost to 18+ psi a bunch of time? why would I do this? Does this car have a history of overboost issues by design? Because if so (serious not sarcasm here) whats the cause and I'll fix that? I actually have autotech hpfp internals at the house right now. I finally caved because of an upcoming track day and picked it up along with a few other things just for extra precaution. HOWEVER, I still stand by the hpfp thing is either way blown out of per-portion or these engines are a joke and although I've enjoyed my Mazda I won't be buying another of their turbo motors.

You have a lot of reading and research to do. Especially if you don't understand why a turbo would overboost in colder weather...

Just install the internals. It's an hour job at most, and then you don't have to worry about it, or make another stupid post about how you don't think you need them.

[garf]

Originally Posted by g00s3y You have a lot of reading and research to do. Especially if you don't understand why a turbo would overboost in colder weather... Just install the internals. It's an hour job at most, and then you don't have to worry about it, or make another stupid post about how you don't think you need them.

So these engines will over boost to detonation after just adding and intake if it's not nice and warm out? Like I said, either you don't know shit about this engine or you're right and this platform is fucking awful.

I like how because I asked if these cars have a history of over boosting to detonation without serious levels of modifications you assume I don't understand over boosting. Also idk who lets there car over boost "a bunch of times at WOT" but seems like the issues with these cars isn't the cars but the past drivers.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Well, "garf", it's a darn good thing you finally got here so you can clue us ignorant fools in. There's certainly no understanding of the platform here at MSF.

Damn glad you're on board. Damn glad.

Just out of curiosity, what did you drive previous to your Speed?

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Well, "garf", it's a darn good thing you finally got here so you can clue us ignorant fools in. There's certainly no understanding of the platform here at MSF. Damn glad you're on board. Damn glad. Just out of curiosity, what did you drive previous to your Speed?

be ‘nice’

[sh4d0w]

Please do not install internals. Also please let us know you when vent the block so I can laugh all day long.

[voodoo2crue]

Originally Posted by garf So what you're saying is that the ots maps are not pushing my car outside of the limits of the stock HPFP... isn't that what it's suppose to do? And overboost to 18+ psi a bunch of time? why would I do this? Does this car have a history of overboost issues by design? Because if so (serious not sarcasm here) whats the cause and I'll fix that? I actually have autotech hpfp internals at the house right now. I finally caved because of an upcoming track day and picked it up along with a few other things just for extra precaution. HOWEVER, I still stand by the hpfp thing is either way blown out of per-portion or these engines are a joke and although I've enjoyed my Mazda I won't be buying another of their turbo motors.

If you search around here on this forum you will see that these guys, although crude at times are TRYING to help you. It's been proven and documented here on this forum many times that some drove around with a few mods without problem BUT some others BLEW up. Why should anyone take a chance like that over a 350$ part? Anyway, I'm glad to hear you finally caved, like the old saying "sometimes it's better to be lucky than good" Good luck with install, it's an hour or less job.

[garf]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Well, "garf", it's a darn good thing you finally got here so you can clue us ignorant fools in. There's certainly no understanding of the platform here at MSF. Damn glad you're on board. Damn glad. Just out of curiosity, what did you drive previous to your Speed?

No problem mate! I do what I can with what I got

Before I got the speed I had a Scion Frs. Biggest mistake I ever made. The thing was slow and buying it new meant I didn't have the extra income to do anything fun with it. I ended up with a slow car on bad tires that everyone wanted to race because it was new. I trade it for the Speed and 3k on top. Did suspension, tires, and brakes first on my Speed. only got Cobb and an intake because I got a good deal. Had I known all the hassle I'd get for not abiding by the bible of MSF I wouldn't have bothered. But I'm not bitter, and if you ever wanna hug it out, or roll to a track day together I'd be more than welcome

[garf]

Originally Posted by sh4d0w Please do not install internals. Also please let us know you when vent the block so I can laugh all day long.

I honestly considered not doing the internals just so I could update again next year with everything still going well... but I might as well do it while I've got it.

I really think that people must have been doing stupid shit, fucking with the tune themselves, or WOT everywhere they go to grenade the engine. I'v not talked to anyone first hand who's gone zoom zoom bang. And all the post I've seen of the HPFP failing have been old. Every person I've talked to at meet or whatever have said the same thing, "oh you can run an intake fine no problem." It's only on the internet that these engines are so sensitive.

[g00s3y]

Originally Posted by garf I honestly considered not doing the internals just so I could update again next year with everything still going well... but I might as well do it while I've got it.

Why? If you're so confident, and know so much more than all of us, you shouldn't need to install them.

[TiGraySpeed6]

So, gonna take for granted your understanding of some baseline knowledge garf- things like this being a direct injection fuel system, and that DI requires high pressure to operate properly. Just some core basic concepts to build from.

Let's build on this with some "why" concepts- You're asking basically two things-
- Why does the pressure drop?
- Why is it needed to be kept so damn high, it's not like it's running out of fuel?


With DI, and the way our injectors & fuel delivery system function, there are two things at play to be considered in this particular conversation (there are thousands of posts on the deeper details, and I ain't gonna get all into that here). So, the two things- pressure and atomization.

We have to overcome cylinder pressures during the compression stroke, and also deliver enough pressure to properly atomize the fuel as it leaves the injectors and travels into this high pressure, high heat environment.

Drops in fuel pressure will result in significantly larger fuel droplets being sprayed into the cylinder. Large drops are what I like to call "VBT" for a DI engine (Very Bad Things). They can result in cold spots on both piston and cylinder wall, they increase fuel shear of the oil by washing large quantities of fuel down the cylinder walls and into your oil, and even show as false rich AFR's as your primary O2 sensor see's that extra fuel. All most decidedly VBT...

We have learned that a minimum acceptable fuel pressure during WOT activity, or any high load activity really, is 1600 psi, and 1700+ is often better and a widely accepted target range if not higher. Pressures below 1600 will result in the poor atomization and resulting big drops of fuel discussed earlier. ALso remember our fuel system doesn't allow time for the fuel to mix with air prior to entering the cylinder like port injection does- shit gotta happen, and it's gotta happen freaking NOW- highly atomized fuel delivery allows for that proper mix of air & fuel to happen.

Yes indeedy- repeated WOT runs with low fuel pressure can, and will, cause catastrophic harm to the engine. Up to and including blown engines.

The stock HPFP was designed to meet stock engine tune parameters. The earliest versions- The Speed6 and the gen one Speed3 were slightly stronger, the gen2 speed3 is barely adequate for stock running. All of them are getting up in age/mileage now so even where they were, once, adequate for stock use now even simple wear from age needs to be taken into account.

Adding more air, with a free flowing intake, requires more fuel to compensate so adds strain on an already just hanging on fuel system.

Moving even more air, say by increasing boost with a tune, or by switching to an upgraded intercooler, even just modifying the exhaust to be more efficient, can and will take the stock HPFP beyond it's abilities.

A HPFP fails when it can no longer maintain a tight enough seal to push the required amount of fuel- it's sort of like a piston when it's compression drops in that cylinder because the rings no longer seal properly. Really it's a bit more than that, but that's close enough for now. Again, ton's of detailed conversation on it, and the merits of different fuel pump piston design around here. Suffice it to say here that once the pressure starts dropping your pump internals are shot- they do not recover and must be replaced.

So, as a general concept it's considered best practice to upgrade the HPFP as one of, if not the very first, mod in these engines.

When the HPFP fails it results in a fuel pressure drop. This can be seen in logs like this failure example below.

Hope this helps. Now go swap your HPFP internals.

[voodoo2crue]

Originally Posted by garf I honestly considered not doing the internals just so I could update again next year with everything still going well... but I might as well do it while I've got it. I really think that people must have been doing stupid shit, fucking with the tune themselves, or WOT everywhere they go to grenade the engine. I'v not talked to anyone first hand who's gone zoom zoom bang. And all the post I've seen of the HPFP failing have been old. Every person I've talked to at meet or whatever have said the same thing, "oh you can run an intake fine no problem." It's only on the internet that these engines are so sensitive.

Here ya go

[sh4d0w]

@TiGraySpeed6; You are a good man sir.

[garf]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Let's build on this with some "why" concepts- You're asking basically two things- - Why does the pressure drop? - Why is it needed to be kept so damn high, it's not like it's running out of fuel?

I asked neither of these questions but thanks. Most of what you said is great, good information to throw out there. The end bit... eh. You show me a cropped shot of a hpfp failing. You don't show anything as to the mods, boost, age or anything of the car... just a screenshot of number, which is cool and all but again I'm left with nothing but some random person on the internet saying they've seen it and trust them. Is there anyone here who can show me they destroyed their engine running just an intake and a cobb ots tune? So far all I've gotten from this site is hate and people telling me they know everything, but don't have any proof...

And all this aside, I don't think you guys warning people that is can be an issue is a bad thing. It when you act as though I smacked your mother when I say I choose to wait on the hpfp because nothing I'v seen or have been actually shown shows I'm running into trouble. Mentioning it is fine, but why the fuck does everyone here feels they must be a keyboard warrior in the fight for justice with this fuel pump? The reason I don't post much here (up until a few days ago I suppose) is because of how unwelcoming the community is. This is by far and away the worst. community. ever. when it comes to internet garbage.

rant over, yet again I'll still hug it out with you whenever man.

I'll give you a great example of what I'm talking about with this place. Search @Vansquish (who's a MOD) posts. Yesterday some guy who joined a few days ago with 6 posts asks a question about Speed6 headlights. The question is probably one covered a many times, but what does Vansquish do? Does he delete the post and PM the kid to search first? Does he direct him to the answer and suggest how to find it in the future? Nope, he makes two posts, first just a post saying "rice rice baby" and another making fun of the kid for misspelling a word....

This is suppose to be someone who's moderating the site and keeping order and he is shit talking a guy who just got here... Do you think this person is inclined to post more or feels like this is a good place to come? Probably not... This is the problem with this forum. I mean fuck I started this thread a year ago to see about the best way to keep logs on my car after loosing my Dyno place and the majority of what I got was people bitching about my fuel pump...

[gdawg25]

Originally Posted by garf ...I actually have autotech hpfp internals at the house right now. I finally caved because of an upcoming track day and picked it up along with a few other things just for extra precaution...

Pussy.

[texasboy21]

Originally Posted by garf Is there anyone here who can show me they destroyed their engine running just an intake and a cobb ots tune?

I didnt "destroy my engine" but with the OTS Cobb map and a panel high flow filter (in the stock air box) my fuel pressures would dip into the 1400s on WOT pulls.

If I continued to run the stock internals, and push the car (I do a handful of track days a year) I very well could have experienced a failure, which would then potentially destroy the engine.

Folks around here are so adamant about the pump upgrade because failures do happen. Like mentioned before, its cheap insurance.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Originally Posted by garf Iasked neither of these questions but thanks.... ...by far and away the worst. community. ever. ...

Originally Posted by garf I'll give you a great example... ...was people bitching about my fuel pump...

Well, garf, I honestly don't care.

If you don't want to install your HPFP internals, fine, don't. Cool- your car, run what ya want. We're over-protective about the fuel because it's important for all the reasons I outlined earlier.

It would be great to have you, in a scientific, quantifiable manner, run without doing the internals. Go for it, and keep track of it's behavior. Maybe you've got one that will behave and not cause you any trouble at all with your mods & tune. I have no problem with that at all.

I'd encourage you to monitor your fuel pressure, and keep an eye out for drops in pressure just like the log screenshot I posted earlier. Maybe you'll never see em, and if not, power to ya.

You don't need to post examples of attitude for us, and most certainly not for me- you can clearly see I've been here for years and have thousands of posts here. During that time I've acquired a shit ton of thanks and very few groans- clearly I've been doing something right.

I'd suggest that you be scientific and accurate with whatever choice you make. Feel free to share and discuss, but as you've found, if you're just gonna go with "but why, I don't see any reason to believe you folks" logic, we will mock you and toss insults back in reply. There is a metric shit ton of knowledge on this site, and very little regard for those who choose to bitch about tried & true methods.

Don't get me wrong- want to be different, go for it! Just do it in an "action speaks louder than typing" manner. Don't see a reason for the HPFP upgrade, great, if you can show cause, logic and evidence to back your theory you might save many folks much money. At the very least you'll be respected for adding to the community rather than being mocked as just another lazy idiot.

For me, I'm done here. I mocked, you replied politely so I answered with clarity and specific reasons for why the pump internals are strongly suggested to the point of being canon now. You replied that it was generic and not particularly helpful and that you consider the forum to be a waste of internet space using a mod doing his job and maintaining the function over form, performance over looks belief of this site.

Fine, if it bothers you, go away. Easy-peasy.