What power should I be aiming for?

[gotovato]

Hey all, just recently had a custom fmic put together and installed on my car so I'm finally looking to make some power. I previously had a very reserved and low power tune just for safety. With my current mods, and new fmic setup what kind of power should I be looking at? I'm going to be hitting the dyno again soon and am aiming for 330-340whp and similar torque numbers. Is it possible on 94 pump gas? My exhaust system is stock from the downpipe back and my tuner/fab guys are telling me that'll restrict me on the dyno. What do typical gt3071r setups makes? Any input would be great as I wasn't able to find a whole lot on basic 3071r setups(most of them included running meth or E).

[Varomnia]

I don't see why you would have trouble hitting your goals with your current setup. CBE upgrade will help with flow restrictions being 2.5 inch piping, but realistically not as big of an improvement that your DP did.

[sheston]

With the mods you have, the tuner should have the skill to make that power level fairly easily. You got the intake flowing, that turbo should do the rest

[gotovato]

Ok so it's an obtainable goal? I'm aiming for fun and reliable not looking to go too crazy. I was just curious as to what this setup should be good for in terms of power.

[Varomnia]

Definitely. 330 WHP on 94 octane should be achievable with your setup. If you want to have a little more fun with it, you may need to upgrade to a bigger map sensor for moar boost, then the rabbit hole gets deeper from there.

[gotovato]

Hah ok thanks! This is good to know. The tuner and the fab guy both mentioned my factory exhaust might limit my top end. They were concerned about the muffler more so then anything

[Varomnia]

I take back my comment on moar boost. Should probably get yourself a built motor before pushing it past what the 2.5 bar map sensor can handle. fyi

[gotovato]

I'm planning to keep boost as low as possible. Maybe around 18-20psi. Whatever power I end up with at those boost levels will probably be plenty of fun!

[gotovato]

So dyno numbers are in! I'm currently sitting at 305whp and 350wtq. Those numbers were consistent over the last 4 pulls. Running at 19psi. I picked up 40whp peak and at the top end I picked up a nice 70whp over my last tune which was on my stock tmic. It feels like a completely different car now!

[Varomnia]

Got a dyno sheet to upload?

[gotovato]

I only have a physical dyno sheet print out but I guess I could take a picture of it and post that up?
It's interesting because for a while we were having serious issues not spinning on the dyno so that sucked but it seemed to start hooking up near the end

[mituc]

Up the boost at 23-24PSI, just keep it lower below 4000rpm (the 3071R will not make enough boost to hurt the rods up until like 3500-3700 anyway) and that's it. Also, even if it's tempting and the engine still makes power up high, don't hit the 6700rpm rev limit too often, stay below 6500. The ringlands will thank you.
If you add a meth kit and will spray tough a small nozzle like 200-300cc/min of 50/50 water/meth you can up the boost to 26PSI and call it a day.

Don't abuse it though, long pulls at <20PSI, or same pulls a little bit shorter at 23PSI will put similar thermal stress on the pistons, is of they are stock no matter the boost you will crack them sooner or later. Spraying meth will help mitigate this issue for a lot longer and also get you more power. Because as you know, with a GT30 frame turbo your main concern is not the rod breaking torque, but the ringland cracking power/heat.

[gotovato]

Originally Posted by mituc Up the boost at 23-24PSI, just keep it lower below 4000rpm (the 3071R will not make enough boost to hurt the rods up until like 3500-3700 anyway) and that's it. Also, even if it's tempting and the engine still makes power up high, don't hit the 6700rpm rev limit too often, stay below 6500. The ringlands will thank you. If you add a meth kit and will spray tough a small nozzle like 200-300cc/min of 50/50 water/meth you can up the boost to 26PSI and call it a day. Don't abuse it though, long pulls at <20PSI, or same pulls a little bit shorter at 23PSI will put similar thermal stress on the pistons, is of they are stock no matter the boost you will crack them sooner or later. Spraying meth will help mitigate this issue for a lot longer and also get you more power. Because as you know, with a GT30 frame turbo your main concern is not the rod breaking torque, but the ringland cracking power/heat.

This is great info thank you!! I often shift at 6k rpm or so since there seems to be plenty enough power up to then. I'm planning to add a meth kit down the road for added safety. I don't go wot below 3k rpm as just a general rule I use. If I up the boost like you mention, what do you mean keep it below 4000rpm?

[gotovato]

My first tune was with the stock tmic and a stock leaky bypass valve.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by gotovato This is great info thank you!! I often shift at 6k rpm or so since there seems to be plenty enough power up to then. I'm planning to add a meth kit down the road for added safety. I don't go wot below 3k rpm as just a general rule I use. If I up the boost like you mention, what do you mean keep it below 4000rpm?

Even if you go WOT below 3000rpm, with a GTX you will not boost much unless you're in like 5th or 6th gear for it to have time to build that boost so low in the rev range. So no worries on that, just keep the load targets around like 1.6-1.8 below 3000rpm, load 1.9-2.0 at 3000 (just for the LEB/BEC tog et going, you will not reach that load that low unless you have serious flow mods), eventually 2.2 at 3500, you can go to 2.2 from 4000 to 5500, like 2.12-2.15 at 6000, 2.0 at 6500 just to be safe, and the also to be safe like 1.8 at 7000. And again, keep the rev limit at the factory 6700rpm setting and mke sure you don't go there too often, 6500rpm is just fine (6700 or where the redline begins on the dash rev gauge).

As for boost don't go above like 21psi at 4k rpm, and let the boost increase naturally with the targeted load up until like 6000, between 6000 and 6500 just keep the same air flow (maf g/s), and from 6500 to 6700 simply let the load and boost to decrease following some ridiculously low load target at 7000rpm, say 1.7 or something just to keep the ringlands safe but still allowing you to rev up to 6700 and make a bit of usable power in case you need it for something (say, one of those situations when you'd lose time if you shift while you can reach your goal without shifting).

then when you will add meth you can increase the boost limits by like 1psi, also increase the timing a bit (depending on how much you spray) and lean the AFRs a bit. But that's a discussion for another day.

[gotovato]

Well thanks for the great info! I didn't tune the car myself so I'm not sure how it's all been dialed in. I did mention to the tuner I wasn't looking for anything crazy just reliable daily fun. My goal is 330-340whp and similar torque numbers on as low of boost as possible and they just mentioned to me a 3" cat back would really help out. Meth I'll be adding down the road I'm sure but more so as just added security instead of tuning for it so if I run out while driving I'm not stuck.

[mituc]

In my case, at around 380bhp, just adding a 3" catback (I already had a 3" catted downpipe and a 3" resonated testpipe but paired with the factory catback) resulted in a torque increase of about 20Nm (that's like 14-15lb*ft) and 12bhp. And then of course I could get more by increasing the boost which previously didn't have any noticeable effect.

However, mind that a catback comes with additional cabin noise, so chose wise.

[gotovato]

So as of now how do my numbers look based on boost level and mods? Should I be higher? Lower? Also what should I be looking at for catback? Not looking for much noise here

[mituc]

With the factory catback on pump gas you should aim for 330-350bhp on a dynojet or a vdyno with the dynojet correction (1.09). Going higher is possible but it's going to be a matter of how long do you want this engine to last before you rebuild it because of cracked ringlands (of course in the end it's going to be a balance between the maximum available power and how often you'll going to use it and how, afterall even on a stock-ish tune and stock turbo people crack ringlands quite often).

My advice is to reach out to a professional e-tuner and see what he can extract from your current setup, and based on your input he will be able to determine which is the most appropriate and safe limit for you (including your habits, temper and so on).

[gotovato]

Thanks for the advice! I'm really trying to hit my goal of 330whp with as little boost as possible. If the flow from a 3" catback would help(as you mentioned it's good for about 12bhp) then maybe I'll add that on. Perhaps I will seek out an etuner and see what they think. I really am aiming for a long engine life so I'd like to keep boost down. If a 3" catback and maybe another psi or two will get me my goal then I'll be happy until I can build the bottom end. A meth kit is something I'll be looking into for some added safety.

[mituc]

Boost is measured in the intake manifold and doesn't tell much about the actual cylinder pressure. However, load gives you an idea, and combined with the ignition timing you get the real thing.

As far as boost goes, more power means more air+fuel OR for the same amount of air and fuel means more timing. For pump gas you're kind of stuck with about the same (not exactly, but about) timing values at 23 or 25PSI. The difference is maybe one degree (less for 25PSI) but the difference in air quantity is significant, probably 30g/s or air which usually equate for like 25-35BHP depending on the timing you can use with your fuel and engine.

Also the factory internals are fairly strong BUT:
1. you need to make sure you don't break the rods and considering the spool characteristics of the GTX3071R you can't really do that without serious flow mods, 4BAR MAP, and so on;
2. you need to make ensure that the cylinders cool down and that is accomplished mostly by how you drive the car;
3. you need to make sure you don't advance the timing too much because the pistons will give up when they are hot and also have to handle detonations. So conservative timing to make sure you don't run into serious detonations (2+) at WOT and high RPM (past 5k) but not too low to give the valve seals live as long as the rest of the moving parts is what you need.

Or add meth for both #2 and #3 above .

To be honest I didn't feel the need for a 3" catback until the factory 2.5" became a restriction around 380-390bhp. It would certainly help even at 330bhp but I'm not sure by how much and to be honest when I fitted it I was kind of blown away by the tone difference and cabin noise.

So don't be afraid of the boost, not until it exceeds certain values at least. 22PSI at like 4500rpm and 25PSI at 6500 on a stock block is perfectly fine up to a degree as long as the injector duty cycle stays below like 96-97%, you don't get knock, you can source fuels of a decent quality OR you can use meth which makes a huge difference in all aspects (cylinder/piston cooling, timing, injector duty cycle, and so on).

[gotovato]

So by upping boost levels to around 22psi or so I should be safe? Thanks again for the info really helpful. I'm thinking at 22psi I could more then hit my goal im sure. If I can keep my factory catback I will. The sound now is perfect and I really don't need it any louder. Meth is something I plan on adding this summer, but more so as a safety and not something that will be taken into account when tuning so if it ever runs out I'm ok. The addition of meth in itself should be good for a few whp? I'm also aiming to keep torque numbers relativity sane to avoide too much wheel spin. I find my current torque level of 350wheel is plenty fun for me. Also, how do you suggest keeping cylinder temps in check? Typically after driving hard for a few gears I just take it easy for a bit and cruise. What else is recommended? I know long 5th and 6th gear pulls aren't recommended but what about on the highway? Is it safe to pull through 5th gear?

[mituc]

I even gave you an idea about how the boost curve could look like in at least two posts... I will not comment on that any further.

As for doing full pulls in 5th (3000-6500rpm)... IMHO that's not a problem as long as they don't last for too long or you don't make several pulls with no cooling time in between. Remember, cylinder cooling is the main problem with these engines, not necessarily torque as long as you're above a specific engine speed.
If you just accelerate here and there for a few seconds just to take over you're going to be perfectly fine.

[sheston]

Wow, 5th gear pulls? I know 6500 rpm in 4th is about 110 mph, what does it end up being in 5th?

I usually just downshift to 5th to pull around law abiding citizens. Usually don't take it much over 100 :-) Usually

[mituc]

Originally Posted by sheston Wow, 5th gear pulls? I know 6500 rpm in 4th is about 110 mph, what does it end up being in 5th? I usually just downshift to 5th to pull around law abiding citizens. Usually don't take it much over 100 :-) Usually

When you don't have traction in 4th because the roads are still dusty and cold... sometimes you need to do it in 5th if you want a clean log

Doing this is highly not recommended even on roads with very small amounts of traffic like the ones used in these two video clips. Also the fines here are a bit smaller than in the US plus you don't go do jail, you only have to pay a fine of like $500 and you get the license suspended for 3 months if you exceed the legal speed limit with 50Kmph or more (50 or 250Kmph over is the same fine and same license suspension period). Also most of the accidents happen within the legal speed limits simply because there are a lot of idiots not paying attention or misjudging traffic situations.

Also, when going faster around here people know where mobile and fixed radars are, so it takes a pretty huge amount of ignorance and bad luck to get a speed ticket.

So these clips are from a friend who has a friend who's cousin has a nephew who's brother in law has one of the two Cosmic Blue 3MPS BKs in the country (the other one being mine).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md5BUk2nZIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF8yLAESWs8

At the top of 5th (7000rpm) the speedo is at about 240Kmph (150mph) which is about 220-222Kmph (138-139mph) GPS/OBD. At the top of 4th (also 7000-7100rpm) the speedo is at about 190Kmph (119mph) which is around 172-173Kmph (107-108mph) GPS/OBD (the GPS speed and the speed read through OBD are very close or similar).

[gotovato]

Haha yea maxing out 5th is big time trouble but sometimes you need to boost in 5th. I find my speed3 goes from 0 to trouble very quickly!! I just wanted to make sure it's safe to boost 5th sometimes it's needed to pass someone on the highway and whatnot. I noticed a lot of mention of cylinder temps. Is there anything specific I should be monitoring on my access port temp wise? I have coolant temp and intake air temp on it and I like keeping an eye on those as well as boost, knock retard, fuel pressure and air fuel. Anything more important to watch?

[mituc]

Originally Posted by gotovato Haha yea maxing out 5th is big time trouble but sometimes you need to boost in 5th. I find my speed3 goes from 0 to trouble very quickly!! I just wanted to make sure it's safe to boost 5th sometimes it's needed to pass someone on the highway and whatnot.

Passing someone on the highway would not be an issue in any gear, that event will last 10 seconds at most.

Originally Posted by gotovato I noticed a lot of mention of cylinder temps. Is there anything specific I should be monitoring on my access port temp wise? I have coolant temp and intake air temp on it and I like keeping an eye on those as well as boost, knock retard, fuel pressure and air fuel. Anything more important to watch?

There is nothing you can monitor really... we don't have any EGT sensor, and the cat temp PID will not tell you much since that temperature will increase in certain conditions (the biggest increase is from running with the rich mixtures usually targeted under high load/open loop).

The coolant temp is usually an indication that the engine is hot, if the coolant goes above like 105C/220F from running constantly under high load (I'm mostly talking about repeated pulls, circuit racing, and so on, not those situations when the coolant goes about as high from sitting in traffic with the AC on) then you should stop doing whatever you're doing and drive the car normally, at 2500-3500rpm, low load.
However, things happen even before the coolant temp goes that high, before you see anything in the coolant temps the oil and the actual metal parts have to heat soak a bit.

I told all the people I schooled with these engines that starting a 0-155mph pull (from 1st to 6th gear) from a warm/ready-to-race engine is the absolute maximum they can do before needing a 5 minutes cool-down session.
Circuit racing is different because you have a lot of engine braking when the engine basically pulls a bit of fresh air without burning anything, the oil cools down everything without any additional source of heat except for the actual friction, and so on. For this I recommend 4-5 minutes of cool-down after 10-15 minutes of hooning around.

I make all these recommendations no matter the modifications to the car/engine assuming they are done on a stock block and having in mind its limits. On a factory turbo the engine will be under less stress but for longer, with a larger turbo it will be under higher stress for less. These are not 100% equivalent situations but intuitively can be points of reference for how you use these cars.

So with these recommendations in mind you will have to use your judgement further down the road.

[gotovato]

So on this topic on engine temps. Yesterday was a beautiful warm day finally and my tires were as sticky as they'll get so I took the car into the back roads and went for a nice lengthy back road twisty session. I pushed the car quiet a bit. I kept an eye on coolant temps and due to the nature of the very sharp turns, I wasn't constantly in boost. It was a lot of engine braking, a lot of part throttle turn exits to full 3rd/4th gear pulls down a straight. How does something like this work? I was taking 1-2 minutes of cool down between the fun roads on the straights then hit it again for the up coming twists. This was one of those times where I was VERY glad to not be on a stock brake setup. I guess at the end of it all, as long as it's not a sustained high boost highway pull its probably not generating enough heat to be worrying? You mentioned engine braking helps cool the motor and there was a ton of that. Im just trying to get a good handle on the platform as I will be tracking the car a bit this summer. Aside from meth, are there any other cooling mods I should be looking at? Oil coolers or upgraded radiators?

[mituc]

Originally Posted by gotovato You mentioned engine braking helps cool the motor and there was a ton of that. Im just trying to get a good handle on the platform as I will be tracking the car a bit this summer. Aside from meth, are there any other cooling mods I should be looking at? Oil coolers or upgraded radiators?

Sounds about right, you can't be 100% WOT on a street course so as long as your average speed is somewhere around or above 50mph you should not have cooling issues.

A koyorad radiator (or a CS radiator if you have a gen2) is of great help especially when the thermostat is fully open and yet the coolant is around or above 220F/104C. With the AC on this can happen quite frequently and it's happening faster if you have a FMIC.

Because how I use the car and because I don't have a FMIC I didn't need an oil cooler so far, but I can't speak for others. But a larger radiator will definitely help tremendously if you intend to use all that available power more and more often (power corrupts, so I don't think you'll be able to stay away from this).

[AwAfrican]

Originally Posted by mituc Sounds about right, you can't be 100% WOT on a street course so as long as your average speed is somewhere around or above 50mph you should not have cooling issues. A koyorad radiator (or a CS radiator if you have a gen2) is of great help especially when the thermostat is fully open and yet the coolant is around or above 220F/104C. ).

Does koyorad make a gen2 radiator?

[ThOrZwAr]

Originally Posted by AwAfrican Does koyorad make a gen2 radiator?

Yes. Check on edgeautosport.

[AwAfrican]

Originally Posted by ThOrZwAr Yes. Check on edgeautosport.

guess i could have done a quick search myself +1 for being lazy. thanks

Copy of Koyorad Racing Radiator V-Series Core Mazda 3 2.5L / Mazdaspeed 3 2010-2013

[gotovato]

So an upgraded radiator is something I should look into then for sure it sounds like. Trying to keep temps low as the summer is coming and I'll want to enjoy my power...at least a little bit