Race Roots Vendorship

[Haltech]

Ok, there's a lot of rumors flying and im writing this to kind of calm the waters, but more than likely, ill end up stirring the shit as well... because, well, thats what i do. If you cant be honest as a site owner, whats the point of running a forum?

Forums are generally ran as a business or investment. I founded this community with 6 people, now we are over 6,000. Im not here for profit, im here as an enthusiast and to have fun with this community.

Ive had my own wars with Cp-e, Cobb and just about every MS6 owner from 6club.. Lol..

But, each one of them can tell you, i shoot from the hip and im upfront. Theres nothing i wont say on here, that i wont say to you in person. Now, with that said, lets move on...

We started with a heated competition between Cp-e and RR. This was actually a good battle and brought some excitement and advancement to our platform at the same time. We've gone from fake dynos, to sort of proved dyno myth (jury is still out on that runfile). Weve gone back and fourth on who makes power, whos 1/4 run is legit, to straight up parts copying.

Anyone who has seen a CPe downpipe in person knows its unique. The most unique piece is the ball/socket joint with the floating flange. This is a domestic exhaust feature that CPe brought to the MZR platform. NO ONE has done so, which makes duplicating their pipes so obvious. This subject was brought up last week to me and myself, Jake and Josh at CPe discussed this on a conference call. Being a passionate enthusiast and even making hard parts every now and then myself, would be absolutely pissed off if someone copied my part and pawned it off as theirs. Especially if it contained cheap welds and was cracking, breaking and making me look bad.

THIS IS EXACTLY what has happened to CPe. Unsuspecting persons on the net who purchased these knock off downpipes and has these defects contacted CPe to get it repaired, only to find out, it wasnt genuine. It also made CPe themselves look like assholes by not wanting to warranty the product. Kind of unfair, dont you think?

Josh came out in November to deal with this and see some family toward my neck of the woods, but i was unable to meet up with him. He did infact, shut down these guys who were slinging these pipes as CPe products. He then had another company pop up on ebay slinging this stuff as well, who eventually stopped thanks to some legal paperwork.

How it happened or why it happened, RR themselves got the remaining stock of these pipes. No idea how many of them are in their possession, but they do have them. I would advise ALL of you, that if your thinking about purchasing these, do not waste your money. CPe wants this stock destroyed and the metal recycled. Its a copyright infringement on their hardwork and a shitty quality pipe, lacking a most needed and important cast bellmouth flange.

The second issue i need to raise is in respect to their turbo kits. 3 persons on my forums have given up funds to purchase this kit, only to be given excuse after excuse and delay after delay. Its my job to protect my community and thats what i have always done. Ive asked RR to give me tentative delivery schedules for these guys kits. If i dont get the answers i requested and instead get a bullshit excuse, i will most likely suspend their vendorship. I would hate to see these guys screwed out of money, but i also cannot allow this type of business to be conducted on my forum. As you can see, im in a bind with this situation.

In the meantime, i would like to see you guys put your thoughts into this thread and this thread only and keep the shit out of the rest of the threads out there.

Thanks

[Fobio]

I thank you for setting the record straight. I was not aware that the ebay knock-offs were fakely branded as CP-e's products...

[boardjnky4]

wait, those downpipes that RR is selling are just CP-E knockoffs? That's sketchy

[rodrigo]

protect the customers first and foremost.

RR needs to step up and come clean and mostly be open, there were doubts in all our minds before, including myself....but as you guys say here in this country , innocent until proven guilty. This was some proof of guilt......how deep? I have no clue but at this point full disclosure into their dealings and how the guys that have forked over the big $$ on their kits will be taken care of........ now we are all watching you RR, time to step up.

big let down on the people that thought you were after something good here.

[Fobio]

I still remember how Randy/palerider kept egging RR on to have their kits/parts made in China...I can see some flaws with that plan now...

[Blackspeed]

Just look at OBX. This is a company that is basically built from knockoffs. Their products look exactly like name brand products, although thy usually dont fit or perform like them. They get away with this, without it being infringement, because they are not exact replicas.

[Darksun280]

I can't take much more of the Cpe vs RR or better Yet Jake vs Brice arguments. Some ones got to go. I'd like to say I'm not biased towards RR but honestly they changed their name 2 months after arriving on the site which already told me they didn't have a name that's been around a long time that can be trusted. They've released nothing for this platform over the past 6 months, they have only one Unicorn of a car running around with their a one off kit on it and they have thousands of preorder money for a kit that was supposed to be released back in OCT 09. Any one who's been online for awhile have seen flyby night vendors and the antics they pull. And right now RR is set up to become one of them and pull a disappearing act with peoples money. I wasn't the greatest Fan of CPE at first but guess what out off ALL the vendors who were around from the beginning guess who's still here CPE.

Brice I like you as a person but I don't think the company you work for can stay on the site much longer. I said I'd give you till march to get a kit out but even by then your exceeding the limit for some people to take legal action to get back their money if they had too.

[Blackspeed]

The reason CPE was able to get rid of the other people selling the downpipes was because they were selling them as "cpe" parts.

[Haltech]

Well, Randy is about profit and we can leave it at that.

As far as OBX, people have a budget.. sometimes, they will make that shit fit.. PhillyB is a prime example of making shit fit when it isnt supposed to.

[socks]

Originally Posted by broncojd78 this one should be interesting...

Try to keep the posts like this out of this thread.

Please dont post if you have nothing to say.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed The reason CPE was able to get rid of the other people selling the downpipes was because they were selling them as "cpe" parts.

You cannot duplicate a part down to its exact spec's... You dont have to use their description. All you need is a copyright on your part and bam, it cannot be copied.

[Darksun280]

As for the DP's there are Tons of Knock offs in the world and if it was as cut and clear as telling someone your product looks like mine stop selling them Greddy, Blitz, and HKS would be the only vendors left on the internet lol. I don't think Brice should be lynched for the DP's untill he's proven guilty in court if they go that route even if he pulls them down. I know Jake won't agree with me and I know they CLEARLY look like knock offs but again there's a certain amount of things on a product that can be diff where the knock off company is not held liable. If that were the case Randy, and PTP would have been getting sued for their fuel pumps

[boardjnky4]

If they don't have a patent, that's tough luck. Anyone can copy the design and re-produce it anyway they want.

If it has CPE stamped on it, that's not right.

Originally Posted by Haltech You cannot duplicate a part down to its exact spec's... You dont have to use their description. All you need is a copyright on your part and bam, it cannot be copied.

Isn't that what a patent is for?

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 If they don't have a patent, that's tough luck. Anyone can copy the design and re-produce it anyway they want. If it has CPE stamped on it, that's not right. Isn't that what a patent is for?

Im sure all of Cpe's stuff has patents.

[E4Performance]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 As for the DP's there are Tons of Knock offs in the world and if it was as cut and clear as telling someone your product looks like mine stop selling them Greddy, Blitz, and HKS would be the only vendors left on the internet lol. I don't think Brice should be lynched for the DP's untill he's proven guilty in court if they go that route even if he pulls them down. I know Jake won't agree with me and I know they CLEARLY look like knock offs but again there's a certain amount of things on a product that can be diff where the knock off company is not held liable. If that were the case Randy, and PTP would have been getting sued for their fuel pumps

There are certain things that cannot be trademarked, like a 3" piece of tube that is bent in a certain way. There are other things that can be, such as a CAD designed bellmouth with SPECIFIC interior curves and dimensions.

As for fuel pumps, again, it's very hard to trademark a straight piece of metal with some machining work and a ring collar.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by Haltech You cannot duplicate a part down to its exact spec's... You dont have to use their description. All you need is a copyright on your part and bam, it cannot be copied.

I agree with you. So were these in fact proven to be an exact copy?

[jack_hammer]

Originally Posted by socks Try to keep the posts like this out of this thread. Please dont post if you have nothing to say.

this whole thing has played out like a soap opera. way too much drama. i have sympathy for those who have dropped serious money on their cars looking for performance. but that said, i cannot believe how many threads are dedicated to this RR / CPE debacle. on top of that, i can't believe how many threads about other topics are infiltrated by the same. amazing.

this thread looks like it has the potential to end this situation in a flaming burning wreck, and i want to see it. i am not instigating, i am not taking sides, i am not doing anything but observing. and that is what i have to say.

no harm intended.

[Cosmic3MPS]

There is another elephant in the room that some people seem to choose to ignore. This pipe was touted as the RR 'Tuned' DP. To me that is false and misleading. It is disrespectful to customers on this site, treating them like gullible fools. I am all for making money but do it honestly. Credibility takes a considerable amount of time and effort to build but it can be destroyed in an instant and with me, you only get one shot.

[super_pablo_]

and I just keep learning more not to trust what I read...
I was gonna get an e-tune from them though not parts... not so much of a problem right? or are they sketchy on that as well?

[triplejumper18]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 As for the DP's there are Tons of Knock offs in the world and if it was as cut and clear as telling someone your product looks like mine stop selling them Greddy, Blitz, and HKS would be the only vendors left on the internet lol. I don't think Brice should be lynched for the DP's untill he's proven guilty in court if they go that route even if he pulls them down. I know Jake won't agree with me and I know they CLEARLY look like knock offs but again there's a certain amount of things on a product that can be diff where the knock off company is not held liable. If that were the case Randy, and PTP would have been getting sued for their fuel pumps

What part of PTP's pump is a copy?

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by super_pablo_ and I just keep learning more not to trust what I read... I was gonna get an e-tune from them though not parts... not so much of a problem right? or are they sketchy on that as well?

I think youre fine with the tuning. I think they just chose poor wording on the description of the downpipe. Hopefully it was just a one time error in judgment.

[Cosmic3MPS]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed I think youre fine with the tuning. I think they just chose poor wording on the description of the downpipe. Hopefully it was just a one time error in judgment.

Horseshit

[Jujiro_Prodigy_31]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Christopher wrote: Brice, Could you elaborate a little on the "installment plan" you mentioned in one of your threads regarding this turbo system you put together with the upgraded fuel system? >>> raceroots - sales <sales@raceroots.com> 1/14/2010 11:21 AM >>> Chris Thank you, with the installment plan we are being flexible with the customer in them determining a price and a deposit with what works for them. Then allowing the customer to say they will pay this much per month or bi weekly or whatever works for them. Allowing you to pay what you can allows you control over what to do, however we do not ship the product out until payment is completed. Thanks! Brice

This sounded kind of fishy to me. I have never heard of a payment plan like this before. Is this fairly common and I just never heard of it?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by triplejumper18 What part of PTP's pump is a copy?

Your questions Off topic. Try and stay focused I was making a point not trying to argue semantics. I'm saying in the auto parts world not every part of something that looks like another brands product at a glance will hold up in court as being a copy.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Horseshit

elaborate

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed elaborate

It's not hard to get how can you say something is turned for a specific car when you never had anything to do with the actual design or production of the product.

[Spoolme]

Mad respect for Haltech and Lenny127 looking out for and protecting this forum and the members.

[Race Roots]

Here is what I want to say on the subject:

We are not here to take anyone's money. My customers have been well informed about the situation and they know they can call me anytime. If they have an issue they should speak up. They talk to me weekly so it would be a shock if they were pissed off.

As for us taking flight don't you think we would have done that by now? We have not sold any more kits because of this drama, dissapointing yes but we have some delays and I would actually prefer to wait just because of situatuions like this. Do you see our manifold or turbo kit on the website? Nope..

We haven't excepted anymore money on terms of turbo kit sales so if I was really a thief or had malicious intent I would be gone by now. But I am still here.

We are even doing E-Tuning services as well this week...

Seriously we have had other customer orders ask Kilik, Madvillan, just to name a few of the top of my head.

They purchased brake parts, boost gauges and so on. They got their stuff, so I fail to see how kicking us off the site is going to fix anything.

This is beyond retarded if you ask me you are only making it harder on yourself and us.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Spoolme Mad respect for Haltech and Lenny127 looking out for and protecting this forum and the members.

That's funny cause when I was hard on for RR 6 months ago people didn't say I was looking out for them they said GTFO. People seem to like getting screwed over completely first before treading lightly. No matter how nice Brice is in a chat or on the phone if there's no products being produced but Money is being taken in advance, and constant issues with the business practices the vendors gotta go.

[802MS3]

comments on the DP?

I always thought Cobb's downpipe looked very similar to Cp-e's? meh...

[Lex]

Rule of thumb boys and girls:

Never, ever, ever buy a part before it is proven by customers - especially if you're doing it from a vendor that is not local and especially when it's aftermarket stuff. No one gives you a guarantee, or a warranty so it's up to you to be very diligent.

You want to pioneer shit - make sure you have control over things by being RIGHT there and not paying until your parts are installed and working.

Also never, ever prepay for someone to weld some tubing together. If a company is legit and intent on selling quality, they will have something already built to sell. Too many people get burned this way.

That's how I, as a customer, protect myself whether vendors like this or not I don't care.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Race Roots Seriously we have had other customer orders ask Kilik, Madvillan, just to name a few of the top of my head..

You can't use them as examples cause you sing them lullabies over the phone weekly to keep them calm.

I even advise people not to go by what I say cause I don't like the way RR is running things so I'm biased.


RR's actions have to be looked at by the members as a whole and them come to their own conclusions.

1. How long have they been here
2. If they are a product production company what have they made and sold
3. How much drama has stemmed from any of their actions.

As much as I'd like to put CPE up on trial I can't they've survived bigger bullshit then this and still stuck with the Mazdaspeed community So has Cobb. I can't question their loyalty or if they make parts that people actually own and are happy with but I can certainly questions Yours.

[SneakyP86]

With the delay in the turbo kits and having thousands in their pockets from supporters wanting that kit. The Mysterious and secretive secondary fueling system (has anybody given them any money for that yet). The ludicrous profit they were gonna make off of the DP's on EBAY for $130 they were selling for $300 (kind of makes you wonder how much the price was inflated for the turbo kit and fueling solution at least it does for me). Why would anybody in their right mind fork out any money to these guys until they come forward and explain themselves to us the CUSTOMER.............BUYER BEWARE!!

[Darksun280]

I don't want to push away a vendor that can actually offer something to the community but I don't feel the Company RR has actually put anything into the community yet. I know projects take start up cash but I feel like if they want to stay they shouldn't be allowed any preorder money for a 7 month old turbo kit that still doesn't exsist. If they want to advertise it as a custom kit that can be built on a case by case basis at the buyers expense sure but don't act like they got 10 copy's of it lying around waiting to go out.

[Race Roots]

I will be away from my computer for most of the day I won't be back until later tonight so don't expect any more replies until then.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Race Roots I will be away from my computer for most of the day I won't be back until later tonight so don't expect any more replies until then.

I'd hurry back you know what happens when the members here ask a question then start making assumptions. Crowd control ain't easy I had to do that for you last night.

[Race Roots]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I'd hurry back you know what happens when the members here ask a question then start making assumptions. Crowd control ain't easy I had to do that for you last night.

I will see what I can do from my iphone.

[super_pablo_]

what ... being safe with their e tune?... or the misjudgement? hahaha

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Horseshit

[SneakyP86]

Originally Posted by Race Roots At 3pm their will be a discussion about the matter. We will be requesting the patent information, once they provide that we will be on our merry way to the resolution they have offered and that should put this to bed period. As for the claims of using a shitty material or welding technology, it seems the bulk of the product is coming from the same source. CUSTOM PERFORMANCE ENGINEERING: Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports Custom Performance Engineering - Car Video

None of this is important to me and I think many others also. What I want to know is how can you justify selling a product for $300 when you bought the supply of "CPE KNOCK OFF DP'S) for I'm sure was a greatly discounted price from an EBAY vendor that was selling it for $130 ?
Also how can you further justify saying it is a "RR TUNED DP" when that is clearly not the case??

Answer these questions RACE ROOTS

[Fagwagon]

Oh my..i hope RR sticks with their word on tuning services...i dont see why they would be buying and selling other peoples parts considering they are supposed to have been fabbing their own parts for their kit..