ATP 3071 vs. 3076 & "new" iwg porting

[dougefresh_]

So, I've been toying with the idea of going BT for awhile now, and decided it's a go. I was debating 3071 vs. 3076, mostly 'concerned' about the add'l lag of the 3076. Without having driven a 71 or 76, it's kinda hard to compare. I haven't been in a MS6 w/ a 3071, but a couple 28s. They all have one thing in common though.. they're quicker than my K04, haha. Anyways, I was fortunate enough to be in Skates' neck of the woods last weekend, and was able to meet up with him and go for a spin. IMO, 3076 lag is really minimal... fully boost at 4K happens quick, and then you're at redline, lol. It was real nice. I was focused more on the tach than the road when shifting, but it felt great. I don't want to totally cross a 71 off the list, especially considering that I haven't driven/riden in one yet.

I have a couple concerns though, particularly about the iwg porting. I do not want to bother with the extra pita/costs with running a ewg setup ATM, plus I'm running failsafes with the meth, so I actually want low spring pressure (I'm assuming 14 PSI is the lowest I can get ots w/ the turbo). I also run a Perrin ebcs in interrupt mode. I can tune the wgdc, etc to get boost dialed in..... I THINK....

How are the 'new' ATP turbo's with the iwg porting? I know boost creep used to be a big issue over 18 PSI iirc, but since then the *newer* ATP's have been ported. Does anyone know how well the iwg work on the 71 or 76?? I know Dano was having some issues with his boost a bit ago (would drop a bit) and he thought it was possibly due to the wg being overly ported? IDK. I want to make sure things will work smoothly before I invest a bunch of loot I haven't scapped together yet.

I may do an ewg down the road, but only if necessary. Along w/ the BT + BT tip, I want to do a custom fmic, and may do a blow thru maf set up while I'm at it. I'd rather get up and running w/ the iwg and just use the cpe fmic I have in the meantime, rather than put this off several months. I hope to have the parts before the spring, then install in the early spring, tune, race, & enjoy.

TIA

[Alpha]

If you stay with that catted dp and keep the stock diameter Maf housing, you should he fine. A 3076 seems a bit overkill IMHO, but that's really goal dependant.

I'm going T3 3071r, but still unsure on which hotside.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Alpha If you stay with that catted dp and keep the stock diameter Maf housing, you should he fine. A 3076 seems a bit overkill IMHO, but that's really goal dependant. I'm going T3 3071r, but still unsure on which hotside.

Wait, which catted DP? I just realized that my sig reverted to an older one from when the site went down. The DNP mani is installed, but I'm waiting on a new 02 sensor for the CPE catted DP. It finally shipped today. The old 02 didn't want to come out, and got stripped, so I'm still using the stock DP + 3" TP + 3" CBE at the moment. I'll probably do the DP asap, so at least the bulky stock DP will be out of the way. Plus, it's going to be a few months before the BT anyways.

I need to figure out what I want to do for an intake as I've read that can make a big difference in lag. I was thinking of picking up the BT CPE TIP, but I'm not sure about the sri. I'm just starting to look into things more now.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ Wait, which catted DP? I just realized that my sig reverted to an older one from when the site went down. The DNP mani is installed, but I'm waiting on a new 02 sensor for the CPE catted DP. It finally shipped today. The old 02 didn't want to come out, and got stripped, so I'm still using the stock DP + 3" TP + 3" CBE at the moment. I'll probably do the DP asap, so at least the bulky stock DP will be out of the way. Plus, it's going to be a few months before the BT anyways. I need to figure out what I want to do for an intake as I've read that can make a big difference in lag. I was thinking of picking up the BT CPE TIP, but I'm not sure about the sri. I'm just starting to look into things more now.

Yeah, you'd need a catted dp to run IWG. That 3" catback may hurt you in the creep department, but you might be okay.

Cpe big tip and a nano or the new Sure Aero would do the trick!

[ms3brendan]

Subbing for results. I've been having this debate as well for when my K04 dies.. But I've also been thinking about the idea of a 2871r, I like the idea of a 2871..

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ I need to figure out what I want to do for an intake as I've read that can make a big difference in lag. I was thinking of picking up the BT CPE TIP, but I'm not sure about the sri. I'm just starting to look into things more now.

What about the ATP inlet + intake combo?

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Alpha Yeah, you'd need a catted dp to run IWG. That 3" catback may hurt you in the creep department, but you might be okay. Cpe big tip and a nano or the new Sure Aero would do the trick!

Okay cool, thanks! I just noticed some of the Sure parts on SU's site... I'll have to sniff around to get the word on those. I'm trying to do this with the least amount of bs/extras. I figure a new hot pipe coupler and I can stick with the cpe fmic for now too. I'm sure they'll be a coupled hundred in misc crap that comes up though, lol.

[rodrigo]

they dont come ported... the wg opening is machined larger and the depth of the wg entrance is deeper and smoother...

it was just machined

heres some pics on my thread.... u can compare em with the pics idk who had of an older style 3071

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...che-now-63559/

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by ms3brendan What about the ATP inlet + intake combo?

I heard they are junk... I don't know anyone who is running that set up though, so I don't know.

Originally Posted by BT lenny127 they dont come ported... the wg opening is machined larger and the depth of the wg entrance is deeper and smoother... it was just machined heres some pics on my thread.... u can compare em with the pics idk who had of an older style 3071 http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...che-now-63559/

Ok cool, thanks Lenny. As long as creep is not an issue, and it can be tuned to spool/hold boost well with the iwg set up, I'm happy. I was just reading your thread a bit earlier, haha. I'm glad you were able to repost all your stuff.

[rodrigo]

from everyone that has one and has or hasnt had problems... here is the scoop....

if u gonna use a 3071iwg make sure its latest revision or port it to those specs, make sure you use stock size maf, make sure that you got one cat in the exhaust.... the point is to slow down flow on both ends....and this helps ensure that boost is constant and doesnt creep

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by BT lenny127 from everyone that has one and has or hasnt had problems... here is the scoop.... if u gonna use a 3071iwg make sure its latest revision or port it to those specs, make sure you use stock size maf, make sure that you got one cat in the exhaust.... the point is to slow down flow on both ends....and this helps ensure that boost is constant and doesnt creep

Well, I assume the issue would only be worse with the 76.. hmmm. I'll have a catted DP, but I was wondering about the stock maf size. I figured a larger maf will help combat the lag, but wasn't thinking it would make creep more of an issue... dang. Skates' 76 is nice w/ the big maf and the lag is not bad at all. I actually welcome a bit of lag... max boost @ 4k seems ideal to me. His spools at 3.5K, max boost at I guess I could start out at 18 PSI and slowly work up and see if creep is an issue. That sucks though, because going ewg later would just be more of a pita than doing it up front. I have a lot of shit to think about here. Anyone running the newer 76's with iwg?

[superskaterxes]

maf has nothing to do with creep and neither does a catted DP. you should never be choking the intake/exhaust in order to keep a turbo from creeping. you would be better off porting the IWG a little bit more then to go through all that BS.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes maf has nothing to do with creep and neither does a catted DP. you should never be choking the intake/exhaust in order to keep a turbo from creeping. you would be better off porting the IWG a little bit more then to go through all that BS.

Thanks. Unrelated to iwg... I thought big maf helped combat lag though on the 71/76, no? Yours is perfect, but I wouldn't want any add'l lag.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes maf has nothing to do with creep and neither does a catted DP. you should never be choking the intake/exhaust in order to keep a turbo from creeping. you would be better off porting the IWG a little bit more then to go through all that BS.

of course it does.... flow in affects flow out man.... how restricted or unrestricted the air in and gases out are will determine how hard the wastegate will have to work to maintain boost.... once u flow too much the wastegate cannot keep up and u get creep.

but dont take my word for it...ask driver311 how he got rid of his creep

[madvillain]

Well obviously effecting flow in those aspects affects creep, but I think what Anthony was saying is that that is not what you should be adjusting in order to get rid of the creep. Its just not a good solution, the problem should be solved from the source.. the wastegate.

I really don't get everyones fear of externally gated turbos/manifolds. Yes, its a bit more work, but by the time you fuck with all this creep prevention and porting and other nonsense I really think its worth it to look into a proper EWG setup and not worry about it.

1) you won't have to buy an IWG turbo, which will save so much monies
2) you won't have to buy a new motor if teh creep creeps on your motor at high RPMS like it did on my friends motor.
3) if you recirc the dump tube back into the downpipe its really not very loud. You can make use of resonators and other techniques to quiet everything down.
4) you now have the option of great boost control via the use of wastegate springs, which in my experience so far are dead on, no spike, no creep with no ebc, or stock boost solenoid whatseoever

[rodrigo]

oh i agree 100% , the solution is finding the proper wastegate and not choke up the turbo so it doesnt creep....

but OP stated an iwg discussion so i am giving him iwg advice.... if fabbing or time isnt an issue ewg makes totally more sense... but we have respect that certain people stay iwg for its simplicity (like myself) and concede the power loss vs its ewg counterpart with a larger non atp turbine.....

for me personally the "bolt on" factor made all the difference...the thought of changing manis...getting shit welded....changing downpipes etc etc..wasnt worth the added 20hp ...... in my situation im trying to keep this motor at 340-350whp because of the miles... so all out ewg in my case makes no sense... also i didnt pay what u guys pay for the ATP

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by BT lenny127 also i didnt pay what u guys pay for the ATP

lol i bet you diddent pay what i paid for mine haha


creep is PURELY based upon the cross sectional area of the IWG hole and NOTHING else. making the intake or exhaust flow better maby increase this creep but there is absolutely no way to stop the creep unless you port the hole bigger. creep is simply the inability to divert enough flow away from the exhaust wheel to reduce boost, its a mechanical limitation that you may be able to band-aid with more backpressure and greater intake restriction.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes lol i bet you diddent pay what i paid for mine haha creep is PURELY based upon the cross sectional area of the IWG hole and NOTHING else. making the intake or exhaust flow better maby increase this creep but there is absolutely no way to stop the creep unless you port the hole bigger. creep is simply the inability to divert enough flow away from the exhaust wheel to reduce boost, its a mechanical limitation that you may be able to band-aid with more backpressure and greater intake restriction.

so u agree on this post now hahahhahahahahahahahah

im just telling him how to do it the easy way..... if he starts porting that iwg and goes too far then what???? weld it and go ewg? sometimes people want the simplest solution and maybe not the best

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by BT lenny127 so u agree on this post now hahahhahahahahahahahah im just telling him how to do it the easy way..... if he starts porting that iwg and goes too far then what???? weld it and go ewg? sometimes people want the simplest solution and maybe not the best

the only way you could have a problem over porting would be if the flapper no longer sealed tight against the housing. there physcially isent enough material to actually overport the hole and have TOO much flow going through. ive learned many a time that cheaping out and taking the easy route ALWAYS ends up costing more headaches and downtime.

[rodrigo]

well MY experience is quite the opposite...........car burns oil..i just add more.... car knocks and pings like a motherfucker just go up in meth nozzle size.... shit works buddy..shit works! lol

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by BT lenny127 well MY experience is quite the opposite...........car burns oil..i just add more.... car knocks and pings like a motherfucker just go up in meth nozzle size.... shit works buddy..shit works! lol

lol been there done that. when my trims go positive and im too lazy to do a pressure test i just open up a connection on the intake and let extra un metered air in till it balances out hahaha

[rodrigo]

now thats how a ganstah rollz

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by BT lenny127 now thats how a ganstah rollz

Werd.

[dougefresh_]

Wurd

[rodrigo]

ghetto boys??? ^^^

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by lenny127 ghetto boys??? ^^^

You know it! You have won a 20 dolla Sack of Indo and a 35 dollar gift certificate to the Compton swap meet.

[rodrigo]

i dont even listen to rap.... ever.

but that "mind playing tricks on me" was so fucken funny that it always stuck and the midget also haha

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by lenny127 i dont even listen to rap.... ever. but that "mind playing tricks on me" was so fucken funny that it always stuck and the midget also haha

That's their best tune. I actually have that single on a mix in my car, hahaha. I like the last verse best:


This year halloween fell on a weekend
Me and geto boyz are trick-or-treating
Robbing little kids for bags
Till an old man got behind our ass
So we speeded up the pace
Took a look back and he was right before our face
We'd be in for a squab' no doubt
So I swung and hit the nigga in his mouth
He was going down, we figured
But this was no ordinary nigga
He stood about six or seven feet
Now, that's the nigga I'd been seeing in my sleep
So we triple-teamed on him
Dropping them motherfuckin b's on him
The more I swung the more blood flew
Then he disappeared and my boys disappeared, too
Then I felt just like a fiend
It wasn't even close to halloween
It was dark as fuck on the streets
My hands were all bloody from punching on the concrete
God damn, homie
My mind is playing tricks on me

More lyrics: Geto Boys Lyrics

EDIT: I forgot about Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangster (think Office Space)... It's a toss up between those two.

[bmylez]

I'm about to pick up an '08.5 MS3 myself. It's got a fair amount of work done but is still on stock turbo. I have a T3 gt2871r and Tial MVS sitting around from past car stuff and I'm having a hard time deciding what to do.

The ATP bolt-on 2871 is $1800 or somethin...but getting a T3 manifold and downpipe seems like a hassle. Interested to see how your setup turns out.

[rodrigo]

btw... 3071r in ..running iwg... no creep at 15lbs... so case closed for me

[SIXual Panda]

I have a gt3071. But I'm external wastegate. I love it. But honestly If I would do it again. I would probably go 3076. And I have an atp inlet. I got it for free so I can't complain. Lol.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by SIXual Panda I have a gt3071. But I'm external wastegate. I love it. But honestly If I would do it again. I would probably go 3076. And I have an atp inlet. I got it for free so I can't complain. Lol.

Just curious, but when does your 3071R hit or come on full boost RPM wise? I never even go more than 20% throttle until 3500 and only WOT at 4k so I'm torn between the two.

[SIXual Panda]

Originally Posted by Alpha Just curious, but when does your 3071R hit or come on full boost RPM wise? I never even go more than 20% throttle until 3500 and only WOT at 4k so I'm torn between the two.

i am at full boost at about 3600rpm.. i mean, in first gear, i cant even hit full boost, but in all the other gears that is about when i hit it.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by SIXual Panda i am at full boost at about 3600rpm.. i mean, in first gear, i cant even hit full boost, but in all the other gears that is about when i hit it.

Man, that's right about perfect then!

How would you describe the gains you've had over the stock K04? Just curious as I'm super pumped about making the swap! Haha!

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Alpha Just curious, but when does your 3071R hit or come on full boost RPM wise? I never even go more than 20% throttle until 3500 and only WOT at 4k so I'm torn between the two.

unless u are shooting for 500 get the 3071 man..... u are a chevy guy...its like having a decent small block and asking youself...should i get the 750cfm double pumper that will run best or should i get the 850 cuz it sounds cooler ....

get the RIGHT part

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by lenny127 unless u are shooting for 500 get the 3071 man..... u are a chevy guy...its like having a decent small block and asking youself...should i get the 750cfm double pumper that will run best or should i get the 850 cuz it sounds cooler .... get the RIGHT part

Yeah man, I only need an efficient means to a modest 350-360 AWHP. With CP-E's upcoming T3 kits I feel a 3071R will be able to hit that reliably with even less boost than I'm running now.

[SIXual Panda]

Originally Posted by Alpha Man, that's right about perfect then! How would you describe the gains you've had over the stock K04? Just curious as I'm super pumped about making the swap! Haha!

Hahaha yeah man. I went straight to external wastegate so I had the noise along with the power right from the start. And let me tell you... it was like a holy shit feeling when I first stepped on that peddle. Honestly, I pulled so much harder than before that like the first 2 weeks I was afraid that I was going to go boom just because of the noise and i could actually take it up to redline without it dying. And just because it had that much more power than I have ever had before, I was leary with how much my motor will hold, so I was kinda timid about romping on it.... now, on the otherhand.. I let loose whenever I can! I love it. And my fastest car prior to this BT was the MS6 with the k04, fmic, tbe, bov, intake. And when I got the 3071 I also put on the mani, the flashes, big maf, wastegate, turbo inlet, and standback all in one shot. So I had a good bit of other stuff done with the turbo.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by SIXual Panda Hahaha yeah man. I went straight to external wastegate so I had the noise along with the power right from the start. And let me tell you... it was like a holy shit feeling when I first stepped on that peddle. Honestly, I pulled so much harder than before that like the first 2 weeks I was afraid that I was going to go boom just because of the noise and i could actually take it up to redline without it dying. And just because it had that much more power than I have ever had before, I was leary with how much my motor will hold, so I was kinda timid about romping on it.... now, on the otherhand.. I let loose whenever I can! I love it. And my fastest car prior to this BT was the MS6 with the k04, fmic, tbe, bov, intake. And when I got the 3071 I also put on the mani, the flashes, big maf, wastegate, turbo inlet, and standback all in one shot. So I had a good bit of other stuff done with the turbo.

That's so awesome man! If I can't get CP-E to offer a T3 IWG setup, I'm REALLY leaning on an ATP 3071R like yours.

Thanks again for the killer inisight bro!

[SIXual Panda]

No problem man. I hope everything works out for you! If your half as content as I was, then you will love it. Haha

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by SIXual Panda No problem man. I hope everything works out for you! If your half as content as I was, then you will love it. Haha

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Alpha Just curious, but when does your 3071R hit or come on full boost RPM wise? I never even go more than 20% throttle until 3500 and only WOT at 4k so I'm torn between the two.

Dude, if you drive like that, you should def go 3076. I remember reading a post of DJ's a long time ago when he had the 71, and he said "I wish I went 3076 at least." After I drove Skate's 76' I was like, okay I need this, for sure. The fasted ride I've owned was a built 71' Nova SS 396 w/ 4:11 gears set up for drag racing. I never hit the track, but my buddy says I could've run 12.0 all day in that thing. I was 19 at the time. Had some "quick" cars since then, but the Nova was a lot to handle (front disc, rear drum, probably pulled .5 on the skidpad, LOL). So, I def wouldn't want to skimp. That, and I drive like you for the most part, perhaps mashing the pedal a bit earlier, but not much bc of the rods. That's the beauty of the 76'.... you don't hit full boost till 4K, but once you do, you better have that right mitt on the shifter, and the left foot ready to mash the clutch in, because it just screws.

I may be heading 76' sooner than I thought. Some financial difficulties of late are leading towards dipping into some reserve funds to pay off my car, and some other pressing debt. I may rape out a few more coins for the 76', but only after the 1st 2 CPA exam parts are done. I'm hoping for a May install. Lots of shit going down tho, so don't hold me to that.