Best BT for 500 hp?

[EmPeEs6]

I'm searching for the "best" BT for my current power goal of about 500 bhp.
It should spool not too late (~3500 rpm, at least before 4k), be able to make 400 whp easily without aux fuel and at least 500 whp with additional fueling, so that there's some headroom above my actual needs in order to keep the turbo working efficiently and get me significant more power if desired someday.

I checked the different alternatives and ended up at these turbos:

1.) PT 5858, probably as kit including suitable Kozmic downpipe and CP-E manifold (ball bearing or journal bearing?)
2.) EFR 6758/7064 + FR Turbo manifold
3.) BNR S4 -> cheapest turbo, plus no other downpipe/ex mani needed
4.) GTX3076 -> probably the turbo with the highest power potential but latest spool
BTW: I wonder if I can reuse/keep my stock flange CP-E dp for any other turbo than the BNR.

Anyway, this will become a hard decision...

[maisonvi]

HTA3076 look into it

[jdmage_mx5]

Hta3076! I love mine and will be pushing it hard in a few weeks with a built motor. Spool is insane and fits with Mazda flanged dp and manifold.

Only downfall was the 3 or more week wait to be modified by Forced Performance.

[EmPeEs6]

Originally Posted by maisonvi HTA3076 look into it

This is for sure a great turbo, but much too expensive comparing to other turbos in this power region...

[Shwa]

I'm seriously considering the hta3073, should get to 400 easy and have headroom plus awesome spool

[Putin 2.3T]

5858, done.

[jdmage_mx5]

My biggest argument for the hta3076 is the fact I already ordered a Mazda flanged CPE manifold and already had a CPE downpipe.

Plus EVERYONE nowadays goes Precision, I like to be different

[mr.speedy3]

Originally Posted by jdmage_mx5 My biggest argument for the hta3076 is the fact I already ordered a Mazda flanged CPE manifold and already had a CPE downpipe. Plus EVERYONE nowadays goes Precision, I like to be different

That's not too different.
I went twinscroll GTX3076.. now that's different (and a painful idea). lmao

@EmPeEs6, I can vouch for the GTX3076 on the ATP setup though (IWG). Made 491hp on it with a D10 for aux fueling. Without meth I made ~385hp I think (didn't actually dyno, just used VD). I hit about 20psi at 3800 and then 28psi from 4200ish to redline with no taper. It is absolutely a beast like that, nothing but a freight train. Beat anything I ran into.. My favorite was the dude who bought a $75,000 Roush stage 3 Mustang ("600hp" from the factory). Pulled on him and didn't let go. Met up with him a few months later and he didn't believe I was a little 4banger lol.

Build diary: Mr.Speedy3's Up and Coming Build

Dyno on ATP GTX3076 setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAK291vitko

Pics of said mustang, no doubt it was a super fast car, just not fast enough (plus its a mustang). It sounded so badass though haha
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uploadfromtaptalk1415678654325.jpg

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[SpeedRebirth]

Stay away from mazda flanged manifold if you want good flow and spool, it's very restrictive. You want the setup to be efficient
I'm on the GTX3076 stock block and stock fueling, 23 psi has me at about 370awhp (460bhp) on ~25% WGDC so it is VERY capable. Bare in mind I have a tial hotside and v-band connections + EWG which is probably as efficient as it can get. Both Freek and Lex says it's a 500awhp setup with aux fueling!

5858 is the most capable of the turbos you listed. BNR4 is propably the least capable (we'll see when someone maxes it out on a built engine), though I don't know much about EFRs.

If loud compressor/turbine whine is desired then the HTA is awesome, sounds like a jet =)

[taf0422]

Bnr s4 is currently on my built car. Waiting for the dyno to finish up the tune. Its not a 500hp turbo (close though), and it will be even further away on awhp.

[jdmage_mx5]

The Tial hotside would definitely be a nice addition but I can stomach trying to get new dp, manifold, and hotside.

[mr.speedy3]

Originally Posted by jdmage_mx5 The Tial hotside would definitely be a nice addition but I can stomach trying to get new dp, manifold, and hotside.

psh, just chop and swap flanges

[EmPeEs6]

Meanwhile I tried to gather some more infos/specs about these turbos:

CH in/out - Inducer(CW/TW) - Exducer(CW/TW) - Flow Rating - Ball Bearing - A/R

PT 5858: 2.8-4"/2-2.5" 58mm/- -/58mm 62 lb/min both 0.64-0.82
EFR 6758: 2.5"/2" 53.9mm/- 67mm/58mm 49 lb/min yes 0.64
EFR 7064: 3.5"/2" 52.2mm/- 70mm/64mm 56 lb/min yes 0.83-1.05
BNR S4: 3"/2" 76mm/- 50-54 lb/min? no
GTX3076: 4"/2" 76mm/60mm 65 lb/min yes
FP HTA 3076: 3.25"/2" 54.8mm/59.9mm 59mm/54.9mm 59 lb/min yes 0.63-0.82

The S4 is the "weakest" but also the cheapest one - and it's more or less plug'n'play!
The FP is the most expensive one (imo definitely overprized) but fits my (oem-style) dp+mani as well.
The PT seems to flow insane amounts of air comparing to its size; EFR are also great, fast spooling and well flowing turbos but require a new exhaust manifiold + dp, too (which makes the whole thing much more expensive but also more efficient).
Last but not least the GTX3076 is THE standard upgrade BT for years and would also be a good choice.

[mituc]

You may not be able to get a 500whp capable turbo to spool at 3500, maybe around 3800-4000. I mean they will all spool even sooner and make a little boost, but the response below 3500 will not be great.
If you want it to spool then a IWG GTX3071 or 2971 may serve you well. If you are willing to go EWG for better/sooner spool and response then 3076 with EWG. Catless 3" with EWG and the GTX3076 may boost to 18-20PSI before 3500.

Also, 400WHP on pump gas (so about 470-480 crank HP) may not be that easy on a 6MPS because of the knock limitations of the pump gas. I'm not sure how that E10 BP102 Ultimate you have there in .de works but it's still pump gas. And with some ethanol added into your fuel tank you may get into the 400whp territory even with a 3071 or 2971 and no aux fuelling.

[EmPeEs6]

Originally Posted by mituc Also, 400WHP on pump gas (so about 470-480 crank HP) may not be that easy on a 6MPS because of the knock limitations of the pump gas. I'm not sure how that E10 BP102 Ultimate you have there in .de works but it's still pump gas. And with some ethanol added into your fuel tank you may get into the 400whp territory even with a 3071 or 2971 and no aux fuelling.

That's my fear...Maxing out the BNR S3 on 30%E I currently reach ~380 awhp, and I probably won't get beyond this power level running one of the above BT on 93/94 pump gas although these turbos have much more potential.
I probably will add port injection (+ suitable intake mani) later on (because this means another 2k+ investment) and first just upgrade the turbo and dp/ex mani, if necessary.
Of course instad of some "kit" I could also purchase a "cheap" plug'n'play BT such as the S4 + port injection, but this way I might be limited in the future if I want to exceed ~500 bhp someday. The alternative is to install a well flowing setup right now, be limited for some time to < 400 whp due to insufficinet fuel supply and install a 5th/6th port injection in the near future (next year?)...

[SpeedRebirth]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 The alternative is to install a well flowing setup right now, be limited for some time to < 400 whp due to insufficinet fuel supply and install a 5th/6th port injection in the near future (next year?)...

Do it!!! You won't regret it in the long run. Changing setup all the time is a pain. Your end goal is 500, so you need a 500 capable turbo.. Dooo iiiit

[NCspecV81]

HTA3586 on stock intake manifold does the trick. If you need it to spool quicker the HTA3582. I like those better than any turbo mentioned so far.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by NCspecV81 HTA3586 on stock intake manifold does the trick. If you need it to spool quicker the HTA3582. I like those better than any turbo mentioned so far.

What exhaust mods did you have with the HTAs and if you were going WOT at 3k RPM in 4th at what RPM was it on decent boost (say, 20PSI)?

[jdmage_mx5]

I'm not running a HTA that big but I'll chime in just for statistics.

If I go wot at 3000rpm I can hit 20psi by 3600. That's with CPE catless dp, CPE manifold with EWG, UR exhaust.

[EmPeEs6]

The most consequent way would be to install some complete "kit" from PT or EFR now and add aux fueling later on.
If I accept to be stuck to 500+x crank hp, the most reasonable decision would be to take the S4 since it is the cheapest turbo and I could keep the CP-E dp and oem ex mani - or maybe install a CP-E or FR manifold simultaneously in order to optimize system flow further.

[EmPeEs6]

Decision made - S4 ordered!
This is for sure the best solution for "testing" a BT setup since it doesn't require anything else than this quite cheap turbo which is capable of ~450 awhp.
This way I save a lot of money, achieve my current power level (370-380 awhp without aux fueling) much more efficiently, gain another 80 hp anytime just by installing 5th port injection and, if desired later on, can upgrade further to ~475 whp by installing an aftermarket exhaust manifold, catless downpipe and maybe a GTX compressor wheel, too.
This should be sufficient for the next 2 years...
@taf0422; Why did you "downgrade" from a GTX3076 to an S4, and which main differences did you notice concerning both turbos?

Originally Posted by taf0422 Its not a 500hp turbo (close though)

If the S4 is really based on a T04E 50 trim compressor it roughly flows enough for 480-490, maybe even 500 bhp. Anyway it will get really hard to reach 500 whp. I guess the already verified 475 (w)hp represent the upper power limit for this turbo (+/- a few hp), using all kind of supporting mods.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 @taf0422; Why did you "downgrade" from a GTX3076 to an S4, and which main differences did you notice concerning both turbos?

Congrats on the purchase. I was asked to test the 1st prototype turbo so I pulled out the gtx. Also the gtx needed to be pulled due to a smoking issue.

Difference - quicker spool on the s4, less hassle install on the s4 as well. More turbo spool whistle on the gtx, and maybe a little more top end but we shall see..price difference will also be a big factor between the two. Also journal vs BB turbo. Other than that there isnt much

The 475 has never been "verified"- just as a heads up..just vd plots. Once its on a dyno then we can confirm

[SpeedRebirth]

Drivetrain loss needs to be considered here as well. taf0422's 475 would be 422 on the 6. So quite a bit left up to 450/475/500:

450 awhp = 505 whp
475 awhp = 535 whp
500 awhp = 560 whp

So I think even 450awhp is aiming a bit high on the S4. Be prepared for this so you don't get depressed when you're not getting it any higher than ~430. It all relates to how efficient your setup is too.
But it's a cost efficient way of getting 400+awhp, that's for sure

[EmPeEs6]

Originally Posted by SpeedRebirth Drivetrain loss needs to be considered here as well. taf0422's 475 would be 422 on the 6. So quite a bit left up to 450/475/500: 450 awhp = 505 whp 475 awhp = 535 whp 500 awhp = 560 whp So I think even 450awhp is aiming a bit high on the S4. Be prepared for this so you don't get depressed when you're not getting it any higher than ~430. It all relates to how efficient your setup is too. But it's a cost efficient way of getting 400+awhp, that's for sure

I guess 450 awhp is more like 475-480 whp, that's why I wrote 450.
Squeezing out the much smaller S3 I nearly reach 380 awhp so I would expect to be able to reach 450 doing the same with the GT30-like S4.
But, since I do not have any aux fuelling yet (apart from wmi where I mainly use water) I cannot run any significant E-mix anymore (instead 93/94 pump gas) to keep IDC as low as possible and thus have to lower timing (and boost) a lot, so for now I do not expect anything higher than 380 awhp...

[mituc]

On pump gas only I think 380awhp is already a good number. Above a threshold you're knock limited, so basically engine displacement limited: you cannot stuff more into the cylinders without the risk of getting knock.
With the larger S4 turbo which will provide the same boost or more without heating up the air too much in a small compressor housing, you may get a bit more power but probably not significantly more or not consistently.
I'd say to think seriously about additional fuelling. You can hide the reservoir and pump in a fender, the hoses below the intake and cold pipe, use an injector plate and put the injector at the bottom and nobody can tell you have anything else there. This is my case as well, the meth reservoir cap is hidden inside the CAI box.

[mxlplx71]

I'm at 388 awhp at 30psi e30 30%Meth 4 do3s
my maf is maxed out on my 3" wide path and stock catback.

I'm thinking a 3.5 intake and 3" catback I could squeeze more out.

[SpeedRebirth]

Originally Posted by mxlplx71 I'm at 388 awhp at 30psi e30 30%Meth 4 do3s my maf is maxed out on my 3" wide path and stock catback. I'm thinking a 3.5 intake and 3" catback I could squeeze more out.

That intake is the TRU 3" right? So 3" inner diameter. Make sure you buy one that is 3,5 ID and not OD. Like the 3" HTP is really 2,8x on the inside ect.
If I were you I would consider a 4". I have Freektunes 4" on the shelf waiting for the built engine to arrive. It's about 3,8" ID so should flow very well!

Stock catback is probably hurting you a bit as well, hate how normal the car sounds with it

You should be att 400awhp at that boost =) GOGOGO!!

[mxlplx71]

It's the older wide path so 3" od , I'm probably going to have to wait until spring next year for a bigger intake relocate the battery and catback.

[mituc]

The silicone JBR Tru 3" may be squeezed in without relocating the battery, at least on a gen1 Mazdaspeed3. I can imagine that a speed6 has at least as much space in there.

[mxlplx71]

It's more of a squeeze in the 6, I had in my 3 first.

[Yami]

Being new to this forum, it looks as though the 30R/35R seems to the biggest, unless these can squeeze something bigger in there? Although on a FWD I don't foresee anything needing to go past a certain point without torque steer occurring.

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by Yami Being new to this forum, it looks as though the 30R/35R seems to the biggest, unless these can squeeze something bigger in there? Although on a FWD I don't foresee anything needing to go past a certain point without torque steer occurring.

Thats why you do forearm exercises - you didnt get that workout guide when you signed up? Keeps that torque steer at bay

[Yami]

I got that "workout" guide and a message from the owner... different mentality here than DSMtuners. Of course the remedy for torque steer is AWD... but I don't intend on making one of these a "beast." I just needed an affirmation.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by Yami Of course the remedy for torque steer is AWD...

Of course you're in a mazdaspeed6 thread, because of course you failed to read. Of course.

[Yami]

Originally Posted by mituc Of course you're in a mazdaspeed6 thread, because of course you failed to read. Of course.

I wouldn't say I failed to read, I know it is a Speed3/6 thread. Still doesn't change the fact that the remedy is still AWD. With that said, because of the newness of these cars there still is a chance that maybe, just maybe, Mazda will modify these cars based on the fan base/enthusiast for these - but maybe I'm a bit optimistic. Although these seem to consume the same amount of fuel mileage as an AWD but that's a side note.

Edit: Sorry I did fail to read (my apologies)... but I did read this, was interesting enough to read through I guess; problem solved?

[EmPeEs6]

Originally Posted by taf0422 The 475 has never been "verified"- just as a heads up..just vd plots. Once its on a dyno then we can confirm

May you post one of those "final" vd plots?

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 May you post one of those "final" vd plots?

The only one I have on my phone is the 460.



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[EmPeEs6]

Hmmm...I would have expected that the torque plateau starts at least 500 rpm earlier (supposing that this turbo reaches 20 psi at 3700 as mentioned in another thread).

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 Hmmm...I would have expected that the torque plateau starts at least 500 rpm earlier (supposing that this turbo reaches 20 psi at 3700 as mentioned in another thread).

Sorry I should've noted that log was done when i was rolling at like 57mph and in 4th. So that puts right about 4k. So pretty instant.

Once I get home from work, I can run a few on my computer.


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[mituc]

Originally Posted by taf0422 The only one I have on my phone is the 460.

Whenever you can, do you mind posting that datalog170 file somewhere here?