BIG TURBO: What do you need?

[Chimmike]

So, since I posted this in another thread, I figured I'd post something a little more elaborate here, just the BASICS of the MINIMAL requirements for going big turbo on your MZR.

There are plenty of members much more well versed in the MZR than me who will chime in with tips and stuff along the way..........at least I hope they do.

This is intended to be a STICKY!

So, you ask yourself: Is the stock K04 turbo enough for me? is 290-300whp more than enough? If you're in this section, reading this thread, you've answered no to both those questions. This means you've got the bug, and you're screwed. Sign over the blank check, boys and girls.

These are the things you will need, at the bare minimum, for a safe big turbo setup on the MZR. This is utilizing the stock mazda flange so you can use any bolt-on aftermarket downpipe. I've done my best to list manufacturers that make the parts.

And so for the list: ALSO NOTE: These parts can be sourced through the many fine vendors on MSF.org

TURBO: ATP Turbo bolt-on kits for the mazdaspeed3/6-your choice: gt2871r, gt3071r, gt3076r, gt3582r, or the GTX variants (I'm not going to detail what turbo makes what power, you need to research that on your own)

MANIFOLD: You may use your stock manifold as many have done, OR Protege Garage, Steedspeed, or DNP manifold. Either will flow better than stock. Power gain over stock manifold? Who knows for sure. 5whp? 20whp? If expense is a concern, stock manifold will work.

ENGINE MANAGEMENT: Cobb Accessport, Unichip, CP-E Standback. You'll find the most support on this website is geared towards the Accessport, which is one of the finest, most user-friendly tuners on the market. YOU TOO can learn to self-tune.....but I recommend getting a professional tune done for your big turbo setup.

FUELING: Upgraded cam driven fuel pump: PTP, CP-E, or you can get internals through Autotech or KMD (easy to install if you're mechanically inclined). This is absolutely necessary!

INJECTOR SUPPORT: Injector seals: PTP or CP-E Safeseals. They're pretty similar in design. Again, these are necessary! Additionally: studs and nuts to replace the injector crows feet. Research this here on msf.org for specifics.

DOWNPIPE: Any aftermarket downpipe that will bolt on the stock turbo will work. CP-E, Cobb, Corksport, ATP, ebay, etc.

INTERCOOLING: You can go top mount or front mount. Front mount is recommended as top mount still heat soaks. Top Mount: CP-E, ETS. Front Mount: Cobb, CX Racing, CP-E, ATP, Bell Engineering, etc.

TURBO INLET: Big turbos have a bigger compressor inlet. You can have a custom intake made to go from the turbo to the filter, but these are bolt-on options. CP-E makes a big turbo inlet that you can get an adapter for to use with your aftermarket intake/short ram.

INTAKE: Again, CP-E makes a big turbo short ram intake, as does ATP. These are preferable to a stock-turbo based short ram as they flow a good bit more air.

This is the most basic list of parts you will need to safely go big turbo. Once your goals mean 400+whp, that brings in some other cards to the deck, and you need to be aware of those cards and what they mean to the game. All that information is here thanks to the big power pioneers who are continually advancing the platform.

And again, it's critical that you do your own research. There's a lot more to it than just slapping these parts on and going. Your tune will make or break your experience. A bad tune could easily blow your motor big turbo or even stock. A good tune would be the difference between "wow this big turbo is fun" and "OMFG HOLD THE FCK ON!".

Oil and coolant lines. ATP says their lines are compatible and you should need no others. Research this to be sure!

Choose your parts wisely, and happy boosting.

[Karmat]

I would add a section about all the little bits and pieces you need to get besides the obvious stuff.

Replacement oil lines and coolant lines stuff like that.

[faeker]

although you touched upon the check park, you didn't say who's check book. For a good most of people, it's gonna be mommy and daddy's check book. Make sure you do double chores, pick up all the dog poop, and yes....even change gramma's depends kids.




Seriously, thanks for posting this up chim. I've made my own list of parts to get but it was a pain not having at least a minimum part list. I'm sure this is going to help out a lot of budget minded people who are craving some more ponies.

[bmylez]

Good list, I guess, but the green and red are totally unnecessary and hurt my eyes. You also forgot to list Steedspeed as a potential manifold, which is a cardinal sin.

[Chimmike]

Edited to add stuff

[bmylez]

Oh, also, don't recommend anything other than AP on this site. If anyone on here runs Standback or Unichip, we will not talk to them.

[Chimmike]

Just trying to cover all options, lol. People should do proper research before making purchases obviously.

[m4tic]

heres a fine example of a mazda flange mani that will work

[bcmurphy87]

very nice make it easy on the brownies

[EdgeAutosport.com]

I don't believe seals are absolutely necessary for when you go bt. Yes they should be on your radar no doubt but you definitely dont have to make it a must to run bt.

[Chimmike]

For all intents and purposes, to be safe, I think anything above 320whp calls for seals and the crows feet studs/nuts. Better to be safe than cause the stock seals to go, let the stock injectors move around and screw the bore.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Originally Posted by chimmike For all intents and purposes, to be safe, I think anything above 320whp calls for seals and the crows feet studs/nuts. Better to be safe than cause the stock seals to go, let the stock injectors move around and screw the bore.

Well it is fairly easy imo to tell when your seals go bad so anyone choosing to run on bad seals that is their own problem. I was over 320whp for a year b4 BT and still on my stock seals with my BT and have been completely fine.

[bcmurphy87]

yea the is just suggestion let the bt noobs choose their own fate. All we can say is there was a thread say this.......

[jonspeed3]

Meth!

[adlpb]

Great write-up, thanks!

A lot of the stickies on the gen1 section need to be replicated on the genpu section. Brownies keep asking crap that's been covered here already.

[superskaterxes]

FWIW i was on stock seals for like 15k worth of BT and when i took them out they were MINT. i replaced them for peace of mind.

dont replace yours until they leak because your only increasing the chances of the new ones leaking by unsealing the stockers lol

[J-Liss]

subb

[2gr84u]

I know they don't have much following yet, bur BNR has some good bolt on options for people not wanting huge numbers.

[Chimmike]

IMO, for the price of bnr stage 3 (the only one worth looking at) you might as well get a 3071R which is capable of a lot more power and doesn't use the stock crap housings.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by chimmike IMO, for the price of bnr stage 3 (the only one worth looking at) you might as well get a 3071R which is capable of a lot more power and doesn't use the stock crap housings.

Quit spreading this crap, the bolt-on ATP hotsides are the same .55 hotside as BNR\Stock.

Yes .55 sucks for everything except spool, but if you want something bigger you are going to have to go with a steedspeed or custom manifold, and are going to have to have a custom downpipe made, or modify one of the bolt ons.

Other than that, yes the 3071 is capable of more power, the 2871\BNR spools better which is preferred is up to the user. Once a bolt on TS T3 manifold is available, it will be 3071/3076 as the only logical choices as they will spool like the 2871 but have much more capability.


Zigatapatalka

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Quit spreading this crap, the bolt-on ATP hotsides are the same .55 hotside as BNR\Stock. Yes .55 sucks for everything except spool, but if you want something bigger you are going to have to go with a steedspeed or custom manifold, and are going to have to have a custom downpipe made, or modify one of the bolt ons. Other than that, yes the 3071 is capable of more power, the 2871\BNR spools better which is preferred is up to the user. Once a bolt on TS T3 manifold is available, it will be 3071/3076 as the only logical choices as they will spool like the 2871 but have much more capability. Zigatapatalka

2871r-460hp
3071r-480hp
3076r-525hp
Unless you upgrade to the 3076r why bother.....it is not like there are a lot of 500whp ms3 floating around here either, a very small handfull of them.

I run a gt2871r .62 hotside, I 'am getting 340whp/350ftlbs @17psi and it has a ways to go before it is near being maxed out- for me it is a good comprimise, nice linear powerband, a lot less torque steer, not a dyno queen but for me it is all about the powerband, .72 trimm IDK if I would like that very much, I don't care about the topend if I have to sit there and wait for it to spool, not an expert on twinscrolls but I have been told by quite a few fellow mucks that ts is not advantageous until you move up into gt35 series and above...face it small mid frames have no problems with spooling and that is the big deal about ts, running a gt35 that spools quick like a gt28/30

[Chimmike]

Okay, so for $1200 for stage 3, what's the most power someone with a BNR has gotten? Assuming they've upgraded downpipe already and intercooler, already have accessport or a tuning method, etc.
For a couple hundred dollars more, you get a ball bearing turbo with the capability of a lo more power and it really doesn't lag a whole lot more than stock.

Just sayin'.

[Ziggo]

Sometimes that extra power doesn't get used because the turbo isn't responsive enough to spool up before you need to be braking for the next turn, where a smaller turbo would have been at full power (abet less than full capability of the larger) sooner/longer. It's the same principle as power under the curve.

Though I don't expect most of the straight line monkeys to understand that, just look to the forum wars. Even if the driver had not been a noob, the civic never had a chance in the autocross because his turbo never had a chance to spool.


Zigatapatalka

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Sometimes that extra power doesn't get used because the turbo isn't responsive enough to spool up before you need to be braking for the next turn, where a smaller turbo would have been at full power (abet less than full capability of the larger) sooner/longer. It's the same principle as power under the curve. Though I don't expect most of the straight line monkeys to understand that, just look to the forum wars. Even if the driver had not been a noob, the civic never had a chance in the autocross because his turbo never had a chance to spool. Zigatapatalka

How are you going to compare that pile of shit civic to a Mazdaspeed with a 30 series? How many BT speeds have your driven? Sure it takes longer to reach full spool but the power delivery is linear. I find it easier to modulate power out of a corner with the 3076 than the K04. If you keep the ATP turbos in the proper power band they spool extremely quick.

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport Well it is fairly easy imo to tell when your seals go bad so anyone choosing to run on bad seals that is their own problem. I was over 320whp for a year b4 BT and still on my stock seals with my BT and have been completely fine.

I have a few thousand miles on my BT and I have not seen any knock from bad seals. I will keep rocking the stock ones until I see a problem crop up.

Originally Posted by letsfightrobbb Im gonna go with everyone should replace the coolant return line as mine bursted on my test drive after install with no boost. A few NATOR NM guys have had their coolant lines burst too. This is the stuff we are using Reinforced Hose

Why did the line explode?

[frivolous_rob]

Mine was install error lol plus 70k on the line anyways. Had some kinks i missed and coolant back up n just burst and spewed everywhere.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by dsmluck How are you going to compare that pile of shit civic to a Mazdaspeed with a 30 series? How many BT speeds have your driven? Sure it takes longer to reach full spool but the power delivery is linear. I find it easier to modulate power out of a corner with the 3076 than the K04. If you keep the ATP turbos in the proper power band they spool extremely quick.

How many tracks\autocross courses have you driven?

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Ziggo How many tracks\autocross courses have you driven?

I have driven High Plains Raceway in my K04 equipped MS3. The BT has only been in a few weeks but I will take it out there again when I get the chance. I have however taken the car with the 3076r through numerous canyon runs since I am right outside Boulder, CO. I personally enjoyed the car more with the 3076r over the K04 on the same roads and feel its MUCH easier to drive faster.

I have no desire to autocross especially after driving on a proper road course. Not dissing people who do its just not my cup of tea.

Again I ask you when have your driven a ms3/ms6 with a 30 series on a road course or a an autocross? If you haven't then how can you say that they are rubbish?

Originally Posted by frodaddyweez They'll also need to somehow extend the hotpipe since the outlet on the big turbos sits lower than stock. And a boost gauge

I didn't have to extend it. Granted the PG piping kit is sub-par but it still fit without touching any part of the block. Just sat lower.

[Chimmike]

Most people who go BT wouldn't autocross anyways. If I were to autocross this car, I'd keep the stock turbo, honestly, and probably recommend that to others. Go a lot further spending that money on slicks instead.

I think it'd be funny to autocross with my gtx3076..........but hey, 500hp porsches autocross.

[Ziggo]

What size turbo is best is always going to depend on the user. My main point is calling the BNR\stock hotside crap while recommending ATP turbos is the pot calling the kettle black.


Zigatapatalka

[J-Liss]

So, If i wanted to go BT by next month and Use the stock mani, or an after mani and just wanted straight bolt on so my custom water to air IC will work just fine, what should i get?

[dooderek]

fuck spool, dyno queen ftw

[frivolous_rob]

Im gonna go with everyone should replace the coolant return line as mine bursted on my test drive after install with no boost. A few NATOR NM guys have had their coolant lines burst too. This is the stuff we are using

Reinforced Hose

[ganque]

Well done. But this is a repost

[frivolous_rob]

It more so was for the people that havent found the link to the awesome 4plyness that dont search, since isnt that what this thread is for

[frodaddyweez]

They'll also need to somehow extend the hotpipe since the outlet on the big turbos sits lower than stock.

And a boost gauge

[frivolous_rob]

+1 to that. My extensions too long tho and the pipe sits funny haha.

[Karmat]

Originally Posted by letsfightrobbb +1 to that. My extensions too long tho and the pipe sits funny haha.

Thats what she said?

[Ziggo]

When did I ever say they are rubbish? No I have not driven one, but do I need to to be able to tell it spools slower than a GT28?

The only people speaking in absolutes are those saying there is no reason to ever get a GT28. I have always said it depends on the use. I prefer tight technical tracks (I also don't care much for autocross) which favor better throttle response. I also know that I can squeeze 350hp out of the GT28 at my altitude, and the extra horsepower available on the ATP GT30 wasn't worth the loss in responsiveness. Highplains looks like a fun course and it looks very smooth, but compare it to the course I run, MSR Cresson. The whole front section is very tight technical and choppy. The back half is much more open and sweeping which would favor the GT30 so its really just up to the driver. I like the responsiveness for daily and the front section so thats why I got the GT28.

I have no plans to stick with the GT28 forever, I have every intention of slapping on a 3071 .78 A/R when a tubular twinscroll manifold is available and the fuel system upgrades necessary to support it are available.


Zigatapatalka

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Ziggo When did I ever say they are rubbish? No I have not driven one, but do I need to to be able to tell it spools slower than a GT28? The only people speaking in absolutes are those saying there is no reason to ever get a GT28. I have always said it depends on the use. I prefer tight technical tracks (I also don't care much for autocross) which favor better throttle response. I also know that I can squeeze 350hp out of the GT28 at my altitude, and the extra horsepower available on the ATP GT30 wasn't worth the loss in responsiveness. Highplains looks like a fun course and it looks very smooth, but compare it to the course I run, MSR Cresson. The whole front section is very tight technical and choppy. The back half is much more open and sweeping which would favor the GT30 so its really just up to the driver. I like the responsiveness for daily and the front section so thats why I got the GT28. I have no plans to stick with the GT28 forever, I have every intention of slapping on a 3071 .78 A/R when a tubular twinscroll manifold is available and the fuel system upgrades necessary to support it are available. Zigatapatalka

Of course it spools slower than a gt28 but my point is that the lag is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I can see why some people would like the gt28. I just have a hard time handling the low RPM traction problems. The power delivery of the 3076, in my opinion, is perfect for my car. Highplains is definitely a fun track. It is pretty technical as well and has some good elevation changes. It was a tough track to learn as a noob but once I got more experience it was an absolute blast. I would be out there this month but money is too tight to buy some decent track tires.

[J-Liss]

No when you got BT, is there no longer a need for like a Bnoon bolt?