BigRedSpecial's BigWhiteTurbo (Lots O' Pic-tars)

[BigRedSpecial]

After sitting on it since before Christmas, I finally got around to swapping my turbo this weekend. I had nothing more than a passing fantasy of ever going BT, especially since my K04 has been very well behaved. It kind of happened by accident, as I was feeding my Sale/Trade forum addiction one night and saw a setup that perfectly matched my OCD; I've often thought about heat management and the benefits of ceramic coating, so when I saw @QwkEVO; selling his GTX and manifold I bit. The manifold was ceramic coated by Jet Hot; the turbo's hotside coated by Swain Tech. Both pieces were only a few months old with ~8k miles on them; considering what I would have paid on shipping to get stuff ceramic coated and sent here I'm happy with the deal I got. On top of that, he took the turbo "kit" and made it into what ATP SHOULD be selling, IE, a full kit; including the coolant return hose and extension hose for the heater line. More info on the turbo can be found in his build thread, HERE





After getting the turbo I started stocking up on everything I needed. My list consisted of:

• ATP GTX3071
• Rapebuilt Manifold
• JBR 3.5" Aluminum Intake with prefilter
• TurboXS DP/RP with Magnaflow cat welded in
• Grimmspeed EBCS
• JBR Slim Battery Tray
• Stratified Boost Dial
• 50' DEI Titanium Exhaust Wrap

I was back and forth over the exhaust wrap for a while but I researched it enough that I said "fuck it" and went for it. A lot of the claims of it causing corrosion, fires etc. seemed to be fourth or fifth hand knowledge; Everyone had stories of a friend of a friend kind of thing, or a story about wrap on mild steel headers. I was planning on coating the wrap with VHT ceramic header paint to seal it and keep moisture and oil out; the few sites I found that seemed half reputable convinced me to go for it. Same deal with wrapping the Jet Hot coated manifold; stories about the ceramic flaking due to heat seemed to be either myth or shitty ceramic.

So, Let the wrapping commence. I wrapped the manifold and downpipe.





Not bad for my first time I don't think...







After coating/curing (in the kitchen of course):





Anyway enough of the manifold, I was just excited with how it turned out. On to the install. First let me preface, this is in no way a comprehensive How-To. I just took pictures when I thought about it, and didn't when I probably should have. I'd like to thank @cld12pk2go; and @JacksonMS30 for their awesome threads, found Here and Here, respectively. If anyone is reading this looking for tips, read their threads.

On to my swap, performed by myself, in my driveway. Don't do this by yourself.
Intercooler/heatsheilds off


Downpipe off... I honestly had more trouble with the downpipe than anything else. All the nuts were soaked in PB overnight and came off like butter (O2 sensor included), but I still fought to get the fucker out. Chalk it up to inexperience I guess.



I forgot, like a fucking idiot, to get any pictures of removing the oil and coolant feeds/returns. Luckily they've been covered.

First Fail: Rounded one of the turbo nuts; Luckily I could hit it with the dremel.



Turbo off, Manifold unbolted



Manifold and turbo both came out with plenty of room to spare. I replaced all this:



With this:



Papa Turbo and baby Turbo:








Lenny Mod bracket:


And hot pipe tapped for boost source:



At this point I added the 18" coolant return line and heater line extension:




The turbo dropped right in without issue; I just laid it in there and let it sit on the axle while I installed the manifold. There was no way in hell that was fitting without some coaxing so I removed the cowl; That provided enough room but just barely with the heat wrap on. The procedure for cowl removal is in the shop manual and is pretty straight forward; I'd definitely go that route for any manifold other than stock. Only added a few minutes to the weekend and saved me a fuck ton of frustration.



All in! I HIGHLY suggest you have an army of ratcheting wrenches (with and without pivoting heads), universals and wobble extensions. The manifold nuts were decently easy to get at (make sure to follow the torque sequence in the manual), but the turbo nuts with the wrapped manifold were a 6-beer pain in the ass. Installing the new turbo was the only step I had help with; I held it up while a friend started the nuts.

DP on, O2 sensor installed


After that I just followed the steps in the How-Tos for installing the feed/return lines. The top oil banjo made me gay. Seriously. That fucker took me two hours.

I also noticed the only thing that was missing from QwkEVO's kit: one of the oil return line gaskets. I only noticed it mid install so I said fuck it and tried the paper gasket on the turbo and reused the OEM metal gasket on the block. Holds so far

Home stretch:


FINISHED!



































































TL;DR: I hais new BT

[LumberJack]

Great thread, looks really good man. In for numbers and results!

[BigRedSpecial]

So I was feeling pretty proud at that point, but there is still some persistent fail:

-The heater hard line was a MASSIVE PITA. I managed to bend it enough to clear (barely), but it is rubbing on the coupler. In the future I'll replace it with a soft line.

-the hot pipe seems to be too small ID for my intercooler (ETS). I had to fight to get it on, but it's pretty warped:





Does the coupler need to be modified? Or is it just too small?


Other than those two issues, I hooked up my EBCS in three port (I have a Stratified Boost dial and plan to run two port, but didn't have the hose set up in front of me so I hooked up what I know to get it running.

With that, I loaded up my base map based on @atvfreek:'s Thread, using @Lex;'s MAF tables and waited for the moment of truth...












SUCCESS! Car started and idled flawlessly. No leaks anywhere, everything is tight. Also, after everything I had read about the original 3.5 intake I was a little concerned, but my car idles butter smooth. No issues whatsoever, and fitment is good.

I went for a drive to test it all out; this thing sounds like a fucking jet. I'm letting the trims settle a bit before I do a WOT pass to see where spring pressure gets me.

[BigRedSpecial]

Another issue I can't figure out, and haven't read about anyone having similar: Whenever I get into boost, as soon as I let off the gas the car bucks and surges a couple times (as soon as it starts to decelerate)... like the throttle is very quickly opening back up and closing again three or four times. I'll get a log tomorrow, but does anyone have any idea whether it's hardware (Wastgate maybe? EBCS?) or a tune issue? All my WGDC tables are zeroed out right now.

I checked my BPV and everything seems fine, in case it is compressor surge or something.

[derek13p]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Another issue I can't figure out, and haven't read about anyone having similar: Whenever I get into boost, as soon as I let off the gas the car bucks and surges a couple times (as soon as it starts to decelerate)... like the throttle is very quickly opening back up and closing again three or four times. I'll get a log tomorrow, but does anyone have any idea whether it's hardware (Wastgate maybe? EBCS?) or a tune issue? All my WGDC tables are zeroed out right now. I checked my BPV and everything seems fine, in case it is compressor surge or something.

I think I have the same problem and my thought is the dual mass flywheel. I'm convinced on it....

[Lex]

Capture it in a log. Sometimes with larger intakes there is enough turbulence in the intake to cause some running issues.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by Lex Capture it in a log. Sometimes with larger intakes there is enough turbulence in the intake to cause some running issues.

Will do. I know some people reported issues on deceleration with this intake, but I only get it for a second as soon as I let off the gas, and immediately after that it's smooth.

I should also add I've only had it up to 8psi so far; I want to figure this out before I go WOT.

[duappleganger]

I see you're running IWG. I'm curious if you are going to have creep or surge issues. I have almost the same setup but I have a full race manifold and I creep badly towards the end of the rev range.

[BigRedSpecial]

So am I lol. The WG is ported though; QwkEVO had no issues with a catless turboback, while I'm running a cat and OEM catback so I'm hopeful. Time will tell.

[Volcom8190]

where did you get the gold foil for your heat shield from? Might want to get a 30* coupler for the turbo to intercooler.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by Volcom8190 where did you get the gold foil for your heat shield from? Might want to get a 30* coupler for the turbo to intercooler.

Amazon.com - DEI Reflect-A-Gold Tape

Amazon.com - DEI Reflect-A-Gold Tape
Amazon.com - DEI Reflect-A-Gold Tape

[socks]

brandon, you can actually order that stuff at autozone.

not sure how the pricing compares, but:

Buy Design Engineering Reflect-A-GOLD - Heat Reflective Tape - 12" x 24" sheet 010392 at Advance Auto Parts

edit: same price as summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010392/overview/

[deadlandxtreme]

Originally Posted by socks brandon, you can actually order that stuff at autozone. not sure how the pricing compares, but: Buy Design Engineering Reflect-A-GOLD - Heat Reflective Tape - 12" x 24" sheet 010392 at Advance Auto Parts edit: same price as summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010392/overview/

Check with vendors on ebay as well. Free shipping and they will sometimes get you a better price. I did when I ordered all my gold and exhaust wrap. Also, the DEI titanium exhaust wrap doesn't need any coating. I'm sure it doesn't hurt it but that is as per DEI's website.

[soul.survivor]

The turbo to tmic coupler has to be modified. I cut a lot off of mine, both top and bottom to make it fit but it still needs a little more taken off. And yes, it's too small for the tmic side, should be 2.25" to 2" instead of straight 2". Then again mine wasn't pink...

[silvapain]

Nice work!

I like to get my silicone coupler pieces from here: Intercooler Pipe Fabrication - Silicone Intake Systems Auto Parts

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by soul.survivor The turbo to tmic coupler has to be modified. I cut a lot off of mine, both top and bottom to make it fit but it still needs a little more taken off. And yes, it's too small for the tmic side, should be 2.25" to 2" instead of straight 2". Then again mine wasn't pink...

LOL! Gotta love shitty phone cameras. It's actually red, I swear!

Originally Posted by silvapain Nice work! I like to get my silicone coupler pieces from here: Intercooler Pipe Fabrication - Silicone Intake Systems Auto Parts

Thanks, I'll order a new one and cut mine up in the meantime to try and make it fit

EDIT: I can't see a 30* 2.25-2.0 reducer. Might try the 45*.

2nd Edit: Went ahead and ordered the 45*, along with some T-bolts and a boost leak tester, since it's not worth my time to source shit here which would likely cost the same anyway

[BigRedSpecial]

Pulled some logs today; three for MAF cal and then said fuck it and did three WOT logs. @Lex; the problem I had last night didn't persist today; I have no idea why... WG stuck from sitting for 6 months maybe? Or maybe the tune worked something out on its own?

As for creep... LOL... I'm not even hitting 8psi When I get a chance I'll get under there and increase the preload.

OR, judging by my 9.5 AFRs, I'll just plug that hole Good thing I ordered that boost leak tester!

Logs are attached; 1&2 are third gear while 3 is fourth.

For shits and giggles... Run 4 is on the K04:

[cld12pk2go]

Glad my install thread was helpful!

[BigRedSpecial]

Your thread (and the results you've gotten from that turbo) are the reason I wanted to tackle this in the first place

I can't do much until I fix that boost leak, but I'm pretty confident I know where it is. One of the holes on my IC for the coldpipe was stripped; I managed to thread a longer bolt in there but didn't torque it much for fear of stripping the rest of the threads. I have a larger bolt not and I'll drill and tap the hole and see what that does.

Trims are fine under vacuum, it's only when the boost climbs that everything goes to hell, so it's definitely something coming open (that flange or the coupler) and not a hole.

[BigRedSpecial]

I hadn't even finished typing that last sentence when a thought struck me, so I went out to make sure...


Yep! That'll do it!

EDIT: For anyone that doesn't see it - I put it all back together and forgot to tighten the worm clamp on the cold pipe

[Block8head]

Wow, picture!!!!

So you have a leak?

[BigRedSpecial]

Small one lol. I couldn't remember if I had tightened the clamp or not... Sure enough I didn't. I tightened it up and am going to go for a drive now.


Impressive though that the coupler alone, no clamp, can handle 8psi before it leaks!

[BigRedSpecial]

14.5 on spring pressure

[BigRedSpecial]

I feel like I'm talking to myself here but in case anyone is following...

Found a couple issues. I'm still not making boost targets, and the boost I do make comes on incredibly slow; It pretty much creeps from 12psi to 18 by redline. I'm suspecting another boost leak but my AFRs are pretty good; only off by .2, which has me thinking maybe BPV?

While looking for the boost leak I found this little surprise:


My Racebuilt manifold is rubbing the coupler on the intercooler and had nearly burned through. Did they even mount this manifold with a top mount? Someone should tell Jarret for his next batch

I took @soul.survivor;'s advice and trimmed up the coupler to take the kink out of it, and of course I trimmed it too short. I ended up picking up a 2" ID-2" OD exhaust coupler and used the coupler from my Corksport TIP to make it all fit. I also placed some reflective tape on it hoping that will actually make a difference with the manifold touching.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial I feel like I'm talking to myself here but in case anyone is following...

Just came across the thread. You aren't talking to yourself. Good luck Bigred!

Almost every BT build has a few small snags to overcome and I have no doubt you'll be making power in short order!
@cld12pk2go; your thread helped MANY people. I see people referencing your thread constantly.

I used bits and pieces as well.

[BigRedSpecial]

Here's what my boost curve looks like:


That's at 40% WGDC (targeting 20 +20 correction) across the board. I'm targeting 40 now and it looks the same, hitting 18 (barely) at redline.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Here's what my boost curve looks like: That's at 40% WGDC (targeting 20 +20 correction) across the board. I'm targeting 40 now and it looks the same, hitting 18 (barely) at redline.

From my BT build thread post 5:

Cld12pk2go's ATP GTX3071 Build

So basically, WGDC is going up to ~50% yet I am still at 11-12 PSI. Looks like I will have to remove the wastegate actuator and apply more preload.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/23/11 Update:

These pulls were on my V109T5 tune. It would appear that with the 10 PSI WGA, the WGDC needs to be in the ~60% range before it really starts increasing boost hardly at all. It then appears to increase relatively rapidly. Mid 60's appear to be good for ~15-17 PSI.

I suggest adding more WGDC in 10% increments...

[BigRedSpecial]

Awesome! I'm happy to see that... I'll keep the WGDC coming. I didn't touch the preload because the original owner said he had set it so that he was hitting 20psi at 60%. I'm still suspecting something, because my boost climbed like that on spring pressure as well.
@rfinkle2; Thanks for the encouragement! I knew there would be issues, no worries there. Mechanical fail is no problem, I'm good with that; tuning is still a learning curve for me however.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Awesome! I'm happy to see that... I'll keep the WGDC coming. I didn't touch the preload because the original owner said he had set it so that he was hitting 20psi at 60%. I'm still suspecting something, because my boost climbed like that on spring pressure as well. @rfinkle2; Thanks for the encouragement! I knew there would be issues, no worries there. Mechanical fail is no problem, I'm good with that; tuning is still a learning curve for me however.

If you think I may be able to help, you can tag me if you run into any tuning snags.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by fivefingerdeathpunch post those logs!

I haven't gotten any logs on the current revision (40%), but I've attached my 20% WGDC logs. Not much changed between the two; boost creeps up to 18 instead of 16.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If you think I may be able to help, you can tag me if you run into any tuning snags.

I'm sure you could; you know a hell of a lot more about it than I

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial I haven't gotten any logs on the current revision (40%), but I've attached my 20% WGDC logs. Not much changed between the two; boost creeps up to 18 instead of 16. I'm sure you could; you know a hell of a lot more about it than I

I only looked at 2.1 (time constrained)...

Observations:

1.) You are very rich. Are you purposely targeting 11:1 AFR? What fuel are you using (octane, meth, eth, etc)?

2.) You have 3° of KR above 6k RPMs. What is your KR offset table configuration? Stock? Lots of false KR happens if with the stock offset table when the knock sensor is enabled above the stock 5750 RPMs with the stock offset table values.

3.) Add more WGDC if you are not KR limited (by which I mean if your offset table is stock or if you are running lots of E or meth to assure you don't have any real KR).

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I only looked at 2.1 (time constrained)... The three runs are more or less the same anyway Observations: 1.) You are very rich. Are you purposely targeting 11:1 AFR? What fuel are you using (octane, meth, eth, etc)? I left fueling tables at OTS values for now, so 11.4/11.2 (knock). Using straight 91; no meth yet. 2.) You have 3° of KR above 6k RPMs. What is your KR offset table configuration? Stock? Lots of false KR happens if with the stock offset table when the knock sensor is enabled above the stock 5750 RPMs with the stock offset table values. Offsets are adjusted to the values @djuosnteisn; suggested in his thread. 3.) Add more WGDC if you are not KR limited (by which I mean if your offset table is stock or if you are running lots of E or meth to assure you don't have any real KR). That's the plan right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the knock is real, since the gas here is shit. I'll pull some timing to see what effect it has.

I've attached my current map in case anyone wants to see it. It's nothing special, mostly just a jumble of all the tuning threads on here.

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

post those logs!

[BigRedSpecial]

No E85 here. I have a meth kit awaiting install, but I've been waiting for @HTP; to release their tank. In the meantime I could go back to running meth in-tank; I did for about 6 months with no issues.

As for extra cooling, I'm waiting for a reply from @EdgeAutosport.com;

On the plus side, I bumped my WGDC to 60% and it made a huge difference. Hitting 20 psi now, and not just at redline. It's still slow to build but it doesn't just creep up to the peak. I'll get a log this evening.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial No E85 here. I have a meth kit awaiting install, but I've been waiting for @HTP; to release their tank. In the meantime I could go back to running meth in-tank; I did for about 6 months with no issues. As for extra cooling, I'm waiting for a reply from @EdgeAutosport.com; On the plus side, I bumped my WGDC to 60% and it made a huge difference. Hitting 20 psi now, and not just at redline. It's still slow to build but it doesn't just creep up to the peak. I'll get a log this evening.

I would suggest you add some meth in-tank until you can install the kit. I certainly wouldn't suggest adding boost when you have 3° of KR up top...

[BigRedSpecial]

Will do for safety's sake... although I'm not convinced it isn't false knock/noise. I've always seen retarded KR on this engine - to the point where if it were legitimate I'd either hear it or would be walking right now.

[BigRedSpecial]

@cld12pk2go; looks like you were right on the KR. Added a gallon of meth in tank and pulled some logs; It's down ~1 or less above 6k now.

It's starting to come along nicely... 20 psi is fun


I need to re-cal my MAF for the meth now, then work on spool... it isn't hitting until 3700 right now.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial @cld12pk2go; looks like you were right on the KR. Added a gallon of meth in tank and pulled some logs; It's down ~1 or less above 6k now. It's starting to come along nicely... 20 psi is fun I need to re-cal my MAF for the meth now, then work on spool... it isn't hitting until 3700 right now.

Still 3° KR in the mid range. I would add another gallon...

[BigRedSpecial]

Shit's getting expensive burning it all during part throttle lol... @HTP; needs to release that tank soon. Before I'm forced to do something custom

I might have something else coming to help with the BATs. I'm also tempted to try colder (2 steps) plugs for the summer, and go back to the one step colder for the winter.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Shit's getting expensive burning it all during part throttle lol... @HTP; needs to release that tank soon. Before I'm forced to do something custom I might have something else coming to help with the BATs. I'm also tempted to try colder (2 steps) plugs for the summer, and go back to the one step colder for the winter.

Cheaper than a new engine...at least that is my POV...