BT n00b questions thread!!

[ganque]

Oh hai!

I'm trying to decide on how, which and why getting a big turbo kit for my MS3. And I created a 10 questions list in order to decide or not on getting it.

If anyone has more questions please go ahead and use this thread!

1. What's the difference between internal wastegate and an external one?

2. What mods/items besides a BT and a tune do I need to stay safe and get big numbers?

3. What would be the best turbo/tune combo without risking too much my stock internals?

4. After checking a few BT build threads, I see that most of users have to add an extra oil return line, and some other upgraded things on stock parts, which are those parts and why?

5. Do I need a boost controler when running on BT?

6. Would the ATP stage 1 or BNR stage 1, (Maybe SSP?) work on my car (stock internals) with the Hypertech tune? (Maybe with a GT2871r or a GT3071r)?

7. What's the difference between a GT3071r and a GT3076r?

8. I see in a lot of turbo specifications the words: Trim A/R, what does this means?

9. What is a Ball bearing turbo?

10. Finally, Can I Haz Turbo???

[Amazon]

In short, yes, you can haz terbo

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by ganque 9. What is a Ball bearing turbo? [/B]

Ball bearings instead of a journal bearing.

[ms3brendan]

Originally Posted by ganque 7. What's the difference between a GT3071r and a GT3076r? [/B]

One is bigger than the other. Some say the 3076 is safer because it's bigger and boost comes on later which moves the torque curve to higher RPM range.

[jack_hammer]

what's up buddy?

Originally Posted by ganque Oh hai! 1. What's the difference between internal wastegate and an external one? this is going to sound overly simple, but one wastegate is mounted inside the turbo housing. one is in the manifold. so, if you want to run external, you have to get a manifold that will accommodate. 2. What mods/items besides a BT and a tune do I need to stay safe and get big numbers? manifold and fuel pump. you already have the downpipe and FMIC. i am pretty sure those are the big $ items. 6. Would the ATP stage 1 or BNR stage 1, (Maybe SSP?) work on my car (stock internals) with the Hypertech tune? (Maybe with a GT2871r or a GT3071r)? rut-roh! dude, you can't use a HT on a BT. sorry. not even an SSP. if you need a link i can find the one where a guy put an SSP on his HT tuned car and it ran worse than stock. 10. Finally, Can I Haz Turbo??? as soon as you get rid of the mexican ecu.

i'll leave the other questions to those who know.

[ganque]

Originally Posted by broncojd78 what's up buddy? i'll leave the other questions to those who know.

Thanks buddy! I appreciate this info!

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @ the usual suspects...awaiting smart alec comments... Oh wait, it is a moderator (guess I won't read them towards him). @ganque Lots of good info here: (i.e. wastegate internal vs. external / ball bearing vs. journal etc.) TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech101

Being a moderator doesn't mean that I'm a super expert, part of participating in forums is to learn and share different point of views. I know a lot of the MS3 on it's basic K04 mods and other stuff but I never got interested on BT until now. That's why I'm starting to learn more about it and better to read that directly from people who DO have some experience with their own BT built cars! So let me ask you something sir, do you have a BT? Please share, if not FYCN!!

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by ganque Thanks buddy! I appreciate this info! Being a moderator doesn't mean that I'm a super expert, part of participating in forums is to learn and share different point of views. I know a lot of the MS3 on it's basic K04 mods and other stuff but I never got interested on BT until now. That's why I'm starting to learn more about it and better to read that directly from people who DO have some experience with their own BT built cars! So let me ask you something sir, do you have a BT? Please share, if not FYCN!!

This question, although I would gladly help / answer it from anyone, would usually lead to "search" and a lot of other smart - ass comments.

I'm pointing out that the usual suspects, because you're a moderator won't give you any lip.

[sellers]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 This question, although I would gladly help / answer it from anyone, would usually lead to "search" and alot of other smart - ass comments. I'm pointing out that the usual suspects, becuase your a moderator won't give you any lip.

Did this in shout. Kthx. smnf.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by ganque Oh hai! I'm trying to decide on how, which and why getting a big turbo kit for my MS3. And I created a 10 questions list in order to decide or not on getting it. If anyone has more questions please go ahead and use this thread! 1. What's the difference between internal wastegate and an external one? What bronco said. The other difference is that EWGs make it easier to control boost (prevent creep, etc...) when you're pushing a lot of boost 2. What mods/items besides a BT and a tune do I need to stay safe and get big numbers? Full bolt ons... I'd say a catless exhaust. You'd have to define "big numbers", but you'll need a bigger MAF housing if you're shooting for 400+. Be sure that you have all your mounts too. Otherwise, your motor will fly away 3. What would be the best turbo/tune combo without risking too much my stock internals? Use AP for shizzle. It's the best tuning solution on the market at this moment. It all depends on how much power you want and how much you're willing to spend/modify. I honestly think that a T3 3076 .83 AR (EWG) is a great turbo for this motor. That'll take you to 450 pretty easily 4. After checking a few BT build threads, I see that most of users have to add an extra oil return line, and some other upgraded things on stock parts, which are those parts and why? With my build, I didn't have to add another oil return line as much as I had to modify my existing one. With the ATP 3076, the turbo sits up a bit higher (or is it lower?) than the stock turbo, so you need to modify the oil return line to fit. The other important item is the mounting bracket that holds your turbo to the block. 5. Do I need a boost controler when running on BT? Technically, no. I would suggest getting some sort of aftermarket device although. If you don't get a standalone device (controls boost independently of your ECU), you should get a 3 port solenoid (grimmspeed or perrin... grimmspeed seems to be popular) 6. Would the ATP stage 1 or BNR stage 1, (Maybe SSP?) work on my car (stock internals) with the Hypertech tune? (Maybe with a GT2871r or a GT3071r)? I wouldn't mess with it... Get a proper turbo 7. What's the difference between a GT3071r and a GT3076r? I believe the 3076 has a slightly larger compressor 8. I see in a lot of turbo specifications the words: Trim A/R, what does this means? A/R is simply a ratio. The simple way of looking at it is: the higher your A/R, the "larger" your turbo. However, since it's simply a ratio, you have to look at other specs as well TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech102 9. What is a Ball bearing turbo? The simple way of looking at it is like this: Ball bearing turbos run cooler, spool a bit faster, and are just better. That's my technical breakdown. 10. Finally, Can I Haz Turbo???

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @ the usual suspects...awaiting smart alec comments... Oh wait, it is a moderator (guess I won't read them towards him). @ganque Lots of good info here: (i.e. wastegate internal vs. external / ball bearing vs. journal etc.) TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech101

I give everyone shit equally... I don't give a shit if they're a moderator or if they're fucking jesus christ or if they're a nazi or if they're a fag. I just don't give a shit. The reason you get targeted so often is because you make yourself a target. Now, back on topic

[rfinkle2]

@ the usual suspects...awaiting smart alec comments... Oh wait, it is a moderator (guess I won't read them towards him).

@ganque

Lots of good info here: (i.e. wastegate internal vs. external / ball bearing vs. journal etc.)
TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech101

[Amazon]

In every twist and turn on finkle's msf road, he is met with offensive answers lol

G, don't bother with the sst or reworked turbos. If you're going to go big, go BIG. I would recommend AP for tuning, not HT. I'd also take the 3076 over the 71, but both are good choices.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Amazon In every twist and turn on finkle's msf road, he is met with offensive answers lol G, don't bother with the sst or reworked turbos. If you're going to go big, go BIG. I would recommend AP for tuning, not HT. I'd also take the 3076 over the 71, but both are good choices.

Case in point^...

[Amazon]

Does this in shout twice a day

kthxbai

[rfinkle2]

CobbTuning.com - Exhaust Design

some more good info here:

http://www.atpturbo.com/root/technic...echnicinfo.htm

[m4tic]

you dont need a mani for bolt-on ATP turbos

caveat, you may need EWG to run low boost ,15-16psi, as that will most likely creep, with the IWG trying to dump so much unwanted boost.

[Amazon]

+1 I'd go ewg.

[rfinkle2]

@ganque ...

There is not much talk of this company, but complete setups can be found here.

@doubleflusher pointed this out to me.

bnrsupercars.com

[nycMS3]

This is a great thread for all the noobs (like myself) who are thinking about ever going BT, good luck to you ganque, i will be following this thread closely

[doubleflusher]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @doubleflusher pointed this out to me. bnrsupercars.com

I did?

[wankular]

Can you run an AP on a Mexican ECU? I remember you were addressing that a while ago and don't know how it turned out. I'd get that ironed out before you start deciding on EWG's etc.

[Amazon]

Finkle is really Einhorn and women tend to read too much into what we say

[DONOTBUGME]

finkle is einhorn !!!!!!!!!!

[jwilkins88]

Let's try to keep it on topic guys. You can bash finkle in shout. This is a thread that could be useful... Let's not fuck it up

[rfinkle2]

As said by @jwilkins88 I've never read of a grimmspeed 3 port failure, although I can not say the same for the Perrin.

[jack_hammer]

Originally Posted by wankular Can you run an AP on a Mexican ECU? I remember you were addressing that a while ago and don't know how it turned out. I'd get that ironed out before you start deciding on EWG's etc.

wank you're right. he had mexican ECU, and since he is asking about using the hypertech i am guessing he still does.

which is why i said he can't haz no stinkin' turbo!

[Amazon]

Ganque has been looking for an American ecu, I imagine once he finds one he'll be set for AP. If not, I seriously doubt HT would be able to bring much to the table in the big turbo arena.

[ganque]

That's right, I'm still unable to use the AP because of my shitty ECU. And again yes, I've been trying to get an used ECU from an US MS3 but no success yet :/

rfinkle2 thanks for clarifying

All, please keep on the topic, I encourage everyone to use this thread to ask anything related to the BT mater in order to create a pretty descent FAQ thread.

[bmylez]

Have you tried Car-Part.com? I'm surprised you can't find a US ECU.

How easy do you want the install to be? If you just want your car to go faster with the least amount of hassle, I recommend the ATP bolt-on turbos. Yes, the exhaust housing is small and has sucky flow...but that's partially an opinion.

If you slap a GT3076 on the stock manifold and run 25+psi, you're going to make more power than most people know what to do with. As long as you don't punch it under 3k rpm, your stock motor will hold. Joel (jwilkins) is running over 450whp on stock motor. It's all about treating your motor right and having a good tune.

If you want to go more custom, you have a few options. SteedSpeed manifolds are pretty dang awesome. He makes a stock flange one if you want more flow with the ATP bolt-on turbos.

Not sure what tires you are running, but any regular street tire will be completely useless even with stock exhaust manifold and GT3076. A lot of people don't realize how fast 400whp is.

[wette460]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the 3076R is going to yield you more overall power potential because of the bigger compressor, however there will be consequently more lag and result in your target boost to be achieved higher in the RPM range (I think it is at least a 500-600 RPM difference. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though).

For a full out drag/race setup this isn't a big deal, but if you are using this car for a daily driver or primarily street applications, you may want to go with a 3071R. It will be a lot more "fun" to drive because of the faster spool and better response at lower RPMs.

Just my .02

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by wette460 One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the 3076R is going to yield you more overall power potential because of the bigger compressor, however there will be consequently more lag and result in your target boost to be achieved higher in the RPM range (I think it is at least a 500-600 RPM difference. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though). For a full out drag/race setup this isn't a big deal, but if you are using this car for a daily driver or primarily street applications, you may want to go with a 3071R. It will be a lot more "fun" to drive because of the faster spool and better response at lower RPMs. Just my .02

I disagree. While I have a smallerish hotside, I start seeing boost around 3100 rpm and can typically hit 27 psi by about 4000ish. The car is still 100% streetable, and a shit ton of fun.

One of the STL guys is putting a 3071 on his car, and that should be done here shortly, so I'll be able to give you a direct comparison of spool up times, etc...

[bmylez]

The more I see people post up their experiences about the different Garrett sizes, I'm 99.9% sold on the ATP 3076. Dano said his ATP 2871 is too small. Others have said the 3071 is just big enough. It sounds like you can't go wrong with 3076. Some people complain about lag, but having a quick spooling turbo isn't good for traction once you start making lots of power.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by ms3brendan Some say the 3076 is safer because it's bigger and boost comes on later which moves the torque curve to higher RPM range.

This is true, and why I was leaning 3076. I ended up going twinscroll 3076 & top mount (unfortunately not an option for you as so far it doesn't fit). The ts76 spools like a 71, which is nice, but has me a little nervous, haha.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 There is not much talk of this company, but complete setups can be found here.bnrsupercars.com

There's a big thread on this on here. Forzda1 was one of the first running a stage 3 BNR.
BNR StageIII Numbers?

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 As said by @jwilkins88 I've never read of a grimmspeed 3 port failure, although I can not say the same for the Perrin.

Perrin is solid. Grimspeed copied their 3-port design.

Originally Posted by ganque That's right, I'm still unable to use the AP because of my shitty ECU. And again yes, I've been trying to get an used ECU from an US MS3 but no success yet :/

One caveat: It's not as easy as swapping the ECU's under the dash. IIRC I talked to DJ about this last year, and he was looking into it, and he said you have to have a dealer program it, and most have no clue how to do it. It can be done for sure... I'd ask DJ.

Also, I don't think this was covered, but you'll also have to get a BT TIP... the one you have won't fit over the BT compressor. You CAN jam the Cobb tip onto a BNR S1/2/3 with a little finesse, but alone is no reason by itself to go w/ a BNR.

The good news is you can sell all the shit you don't need pretty damn quick. I just ordered all my BT parts (except the ewg... oh... def go with an ewg like others said), and I already have people that want my DNP mani, fmic, etc. One great thing about used MS3/6 parts is they sell pretty damn quick! Hope the trigger finger is doing well buddy

[KRNAGE]

great thread as i am too thinking of BT and in the process of selling off parts to fund this project, hoping the Cobb SRI Ive ordered will be fine for BT also (i knew not to get a TIP this time round because of the BT but thats as far as I know)

But with each passing day I keep thinking I'll just buy BT mazda flange and be done quicker, but then I know I should go T3 steed mani or T3 TS.

it appears our ECU isn't as good either in Australia (pretty much all bolt ons and standback i got 270hp atw compared to what everyone here is putting down) so thinking of selling the SB and doing a mazdaedit flash once im BT - there are a few people running mazdaedit where im from

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by KRNAGE hoping the Cobb SRI Ive ordered will be fine for BT also (i knew not to get a TIP this time round because of the BT but thats as far as I know)

Cobb SRI will fit with CPE's BT TIP... the CPE TIP comes with a reducer flange, so you're all set there.

[KRNAGE]

good to know, i was hoping that would be the case, ill tackle getting CP-E stuff at the final stages

[dougefresh_]

One last thing... a lot of people are upgrading their injector seals when they go BT. Here's the thread:

Injector seals

To save you a lot of time, here are the correct seals you want to get:

CPE MZR 2.3 DISI SAFEseal&#8482 Injector Seals for Mazdaspeed 3 / 6 / CX-7 - Revolution Performance Motorsports!

Many people are replacing their injector hold-down bolts with studs as well. Whether or not this is necessary is up for debate, but imho for $20 while you have the fuel rail off, why the hell not. You can order these from Fastenal (see injector seals thread for other options from Jegs & McMasters-Carr). Here are the part #'s as I just ordered mine:

0349266 (Qty =5) M8x1.25 x 50 Metric Alloy Steel Stud 1 $3.15 =$15.75
90701 (Qty =8) M8-1.25 DIN 6923 Steel Class 8.8 Zinc Flange Nut 1 $0.1597 =$1.28

You only need 4 studs obviously, but I got an extra one and twice as many nuts just in case! lol

The problem is the injector seals can leak, and eventually blow out and cause head damage. Even if they don't blow out, any leaking can get picked up as false knock by the knock sensor, making it near impossible to tune. I'm not sure how much of a problem this is with different size turbos. I know Forzda1 upgraded his for his BNRS3, and I'm sure that was preemptively. I'm doing mine in two weeks, and I hope to make a little vid of how to do it if that helps people. Thanks again to skates for shooting me his invoice from fastenal to save me some time. Thought I'd pass it along.

EDIT: I'm also doing the egr delete while the mani is off. Last time I had the IM off the "New" ATR w/ CEL defeats wasn't out yet and I was due for an inspection sticker. You can buy the block off plate from SU for $19 here: http://www.streetunit.com/StreetUnit.../sumzregrp.htm, or fab one up yourself. This keeps shitty spent exhaust gas from being recycled into your intake mani for emissions reasons. That's naaasssty! Not just a BT thing, but thought it was worth mentioning for when you do the injector seals. If you want to remove the egr tube altogether, you have to plug the mani side and it's 1/2 NPT, but not sure about length. In ATR go to "Edit" then "advanced parameters," click on the "Toggles (base)" tab and UNcheck P0401, and that will prevent an egr related CEL from ever appearing . Cool stuff.

EDIT 2: How To CPE Injector Seals + Studs + EGR Delete

[alien_sporez]

This thread is awesome! Great info.

[jwilkins88]

Ditto to what Douge said. If you're going big turbo, you might as well save yourself some headache down the road and upgrade your seals.

Also, It's best to get them now before CPE raises the price (it's really inevitable)

[bmylez]

Yeah, I'm thinkin I need to order them right now, even though BT is down the road.

[KRNAGE]

would BSD still apply for BT?
...I've got a baffle, just need to get the bolt bsd kit as it makes me feel better that I can remove

yeap noob and I know I should donate.....