IWG ATP GTX3071R - How far should the flapper open?-

[Matrix311]

Hello everyone! I recently installed my new GTX3071R with IWG a few weeks ago. Since the install I've been having issues with spool times. As of today and my latest 4th gear WOT (attached) i'm only hitting 16psi at 4,000RPM and i'm not hitting 20psi until 4,400rpm. As you can see it's very slow for spool time. I'm hoping some of you can chime in with some troubleshooting tips so I can be happy with the recent investment i've made to go big turbo.

Here is a little history of how I got to where I am. I purchased the turbo from Edge brand new. Upon delivery I had a friend port the wastegate for me. To do that I took the turbo apart and gave him the hotside to do his port job.





After he completed the porting of the hotside I reassembled the turbo connecting the two halves. I never marked the position the turbo was in when I first got it from ATP so I wasn't sure how the turbo should be clocked when I put it back together. When I assembled it and connected the WG arm to the flapper I noticed it was partially open. I knew that wasn't correct so I figured I need to fix that. Since ATP and big turbo's are new to me I did not realize preloading the turbo was an option. I saw the threads on the WG arm but didn't think anything of it. I figured it came the way it needed to from the factory. So what i did to fix the opening of the flapper was simply clock the turbo (rotate the hotside) which made the distance to the flapper longer creating resistance for the WG arm and keeping it shut tight. I figured all was well, and before I installed the turbo I connected an air source to the wastegate canister to make sure the flapper opened and indeed it did. I figured I was good to go.

Next thing I did was install the turbo. The install went very smooth and now I started the tuning process with a local who is an excellent tuner. He worked directly with cobb to help release the AP for the MS3 platform before it was released to everyone so he has a lot of hands on experience and direct communication with Cobb, a well trusted tuner. After doing a few logs we noticed the major lag in spooling the turbo. I wasn't hitting full boost until over 5,000RPM. I talked to a few other people why this may be happening and saw a few threads on MSF and my friend Corey az86ms3 recommended I preload the wastegate. So I got under the car, disconnected the WG arm from the flapper and preloaded it as much as I could and reconnected it. I had to use air to push the WG arm out so I could reconnect it. I ran a few data logs and things were starting to look better. I was spooling around 300-400rpm faster, just under 5,000RPM now but still not perfect and where I want to be.

Now my friend said I should cut the WG arm, he had to do that on his GT3076 as he was taking forever to spool as well. So I removed the wastegate from the turbo and cut each half 1/8* shorter (male threaded side and female threaded side). I removed the stop nut that came on the WG arm and then preloaded it as much as I could. I reinstalled the WG back onto the turbo and now was the hard part. I tried and tried myself to reconnect that WG arm to the flapper and it wasn't happening. I had to have a friend stop by with some muscle and we both worked on this for over an hour trying to reconnect it. We coudlnt get it so I had to loosen it up a few turns to get it to fit. Even then it was virtually impossible and required a pry bar to get it on. This was basically as preloaded as it will get before I have to pull the turbo to go further if needed. My friend Corey had cut about 3/4" off his WG arm and he was able to reconnect it just fine. This got me thinking why mine was so hard and his was so easy. The reason for this had to have been when I assembled the turbo after the hotside was ported. I had to clock the hotside to apply pressure to the WG arm and now it threw the geometry of the WG arm angles off not allowing me to easily connect it. One thing to note is we had to use air to push the WG arm out. The WG arm was fully extended and when we finally connected it to the flapper the WG arm was still fully extended meaning the flapper for the most part will barely open. I think it was able to open maybe 1/16" if that. Well since i'm still not reaching full boost under 4,000RPM I decided to pull the turbo.

So yesterday (11/27/12) I started tearing everything apart again. I pulled the turbo, disconnected the WG arm from the flapper and removed all of the bolts securing the hotside to the compressor. Now I can twist the housing but i'm still questioning where it needs to be? I also cut the WG arm another 1/8" on each side making it shorter yet.

Now this is where my questions come into place. When I reconnect the WG arm to the flapper, should I be able to do that without applying air pressure yet have a slight amount of resistance so the flapper stays shut? How tight does that need to be? Can there be any play or should it be completely sealed and fully tight? I had to pull out on the spring a little bit to get it to connect to the flapper and thats it. I then connected the air source and verified the flapper would open and indeed it does. I measured the distance and it was about 1/4" opening. Is this far enough? Is this not far enough? The WG arm moves freely and is not hitting any coolant/oil lines and is not restricted in any way. It freely moves as it needs to. Also the orientation of the hotside to the compressor, how can I tell if that is correct? Even though I shortened the wastegate arm I could have essentially made that null and void by clocking the hotside in the direction to allow the WG arm to more easily connect to the flapper and thats what I may have done.

I also want to add in that ive verified the grimmspeed ECBS is indeed hooked up correctly. I've tested for boost leaks and to make sure the boost nipple in the silicone coupler going to the turbo does not leak, all passes the boost leak test just fine up to 25psi. I also put some seafoam in to check for exhaust leaks and i had one tiney hairline crack in one of the welds way down at the end of my downpipe. That shouldnt be a problem. I could not find any other leaks. I also tested the ECBS by putting the stock one back in and same results so I know the grimmspeed is not the problem. Could the ECBS be a cause for the slow spool or is this more of a hardware issue?

What should I do from here to troublehshoot the issue? I'm open to any and all suggestions so please fire away. I'm assuming i'll have to pull the turbo one more time. I really dont want to but to be satisfied with my recent $2,000 investment its worth it. I dont want my turbo half assed the way it is.

Here is my current mod listing:
2007 MS3 Sport, gtx3071r, 3" HTP TIP, 3" Treadstone MAF, 3 Bar MAP, Grimmspeed ECBS, CP-E FMIC, CP-E DP, CP-E SAFE Seals, CP-E RMM, SU PMM, TRZ TMM, PTP FP Internals, DCR VVT, JBrone Shift Plate, SU Shifter Bushings, HKS SSQV, ITV22, DO Stage 2 Meth, Evo X Wheels, 245/40-18 Nitto NT05, Koni Sports + H&R Springs

Thanks for your help and i'm hoping MSF can help me resolve this issue. I'm ready to be done tinkering with this thing as it's been non stop for 2 weeks now. Hopefully i'm missing something really easy here.

ATTACHED: current MAP and a 4th gear WOT log and a 3rd gear WOT log.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 So yesterday (11/27/12) I started tearing everything apart again. I pulled the turbo, disconnected the WG arm from the flapper and removed all of the bolts securing the hotside to the compressor. Now I can twist the housing but i'm still questioning where it needs to be? I also cut the WG arm another 1/8" on each side making it shorter yet. Now this is where my questions come into place. When I reconnect the WG arm to the flapper, should I be able to do that without applying air pressure yet have a slight amount of resistance so the flapper stays shut? When I last reconnected my WGA arm to the flapper, it probably took 10-20 lbs of force yanking on it with a pair of pliers to get it on the flapper connector. I have never used air pressure. You absolutely want some back pull under no air pressure to apply a preload to seat the flapper closed. How tight does that need to be? Can there be any play or should it be completely sealed and fully tight? I had to pull out on the spring a little bit to get it to connect to the flapper and thats it. You absolutely want some back pull under no air pressure to apply a preload to seat the flapper closed. In my case, I would estimate this at 10-20 pounds.

Also, I assume there is some meat around the bore of the WG port for the flapper to seal agaist right (it wasn't ported out so much to leak even when under preload?)

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Also, I assume there is some meat around the bore of the WG port for the flapper to seal agaist right (it wasn't ported out so much to leak even when under preload?)

Thanks for your reply! The wastegate was ported only 1mm haved around the hole so no, not very much meat was taken out causing the wastegate to leak.

How should the turbo be clocked when you assemble the two halves? Is there a certain position with markings to show the proper geometry of where the CHRA and hotside should be seated and aligned so the preload on the WG arm is proper?

Tonight I borrowed a friends TurboXS MBC controller and hooked it up. I kept it closed for the most part so I didn't overboost and it was maxing my boost out at 16psi. I've attached a log and it's possible my spool has increased a little from where I was at. I hit 14psi at 3700rpm and 16psi at 4100 which was the max PSI for the 4th gear pull.

I've attached the log. Thoughts?

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Etipp98 I bet if the hotside itself wasn't ported you would be spooling quicker. Not saying that's your issue but it's not helping your cause. taparooski

Why do you say that?

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[Matrix311]

@86azms3Looking at 802MS3's port job, his seems to be ported more then mine and he's not having any weird issues. Check out the photos in his thread.
3071r build

[cld12pk2go]

For reference, my port job can be found here in detail:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...1-build-94543/

I also did a +1mm on the port size.

Geometry: I believe I marked my turbine housing and CHRA with a sharpie prior to pulling them apart so I could line them back up. I suggest calling ATP to consult on this item. If you have cut your WGA arm as much as you suggest, then your geometry might be off, which would affect the force vector. I am not sure this matters a great deal though. You seem to have a different problem IMHO.

Have you pulled your Exhaust manifold and examined it for leaks and looked at both gaskets looking for signs of leaks?

Do you still have a functioning EGR?

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go For reference, my port job can be found here in detail: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...1-build-94543/ I also did a +1mm on the port size. Geometry: I believe I marked my turbine housing and CHRA with a sharpie prior to pulling them apart so I could line them back up. I suggest calling ATP to consult on this item. If you have cut your WGA arm as much as you suggest, then your geometry might be off, which would affect the force vector. I am not sure this matters a great deal though. You seem to have a different problem IMHO. Have you pulled your Exhaust manifold and examined it for leaks and looked at both gaskets looking for signs of leaks? Do you still have a functioning EGR?

I will try calling ATP here in a moment to see about the geometry factor.

I have not examined the exhaust manifold gasket yet, i'll just replace it this weekend. It looks like Autozone has a mazdaspeed 3 exhaust manifold gasket. I did inspect the turbo to manifold gasket and that appeared perfectly fine.

My EGR is still hooked up yes. I did have the EGR delete installed but couldn't pass emissions so I put it back on and i've left it on since. I guess the thing to do now is just disconnect the solenoid right? I have not done that, its' still fully connected and working.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 I will try calling ATP here in a moment to see about the geometry factor. I have not examined the exhaust manifold gasket yet, i'll just replace it this weekend. It looks like Autozone has a mazdaspeed 3 exhaust manifold gasket. I did inspect the turbo to manifold gasket and that appeared perfectly fine. My EGR is still hooked up yes. I did have the EGR delete installed but couldn't pass emissions so I put it back on and i've left it on since. I guess the thing to do now is just disconnect the solenoid right? I have not done that, its' still fully connected and working.

I am just trying to think if the EGR could be causing an exhaust leak somehow...not that I have a good hypothesis to support why it would...

My money is on a leak at the head to exhaust manifold. Just because it didn't leak at idle during your seafoam test doesn't mean it isn't leaking like crazy with 30-50 PSI of back pressure...

Just remember if you find the issue, you are going to overboost like a MOFO on the first pull after the fix is applied so you will need to use extreme caution with your tune and right foot.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I am just trying to think if the EGR could be causing an exhaust leak somehow...not that I have a good hypothesis to support why it would... My money is on a leak at the head to exhaust manifold. Just because it didn't leak at idle during your seafoam test doesn't mean it isn't leaking like crazy with 30-50 PSI of back pressure... Just remember if you find the issue, you are going to overboost like a MOFO on the first pull after the fix is applied so you will need to use extreme caution with your tune and right foot.

ATP support has been contacted. So we will see what they say. In the mean time i'll try to find an exhaust manifold gasket and replace that this weekend.

Hopefully we will make some more progress. If anyone else has anything to say please chime in. I'm open to all ideas.

[superskaterxes]

if your WG flapper wasent opening enough you would have boost creep not slow spool

you have an exhaust leak somewhere between the head and turbo or at the WG flapper seat itself.

what psi is your WGA?

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes if your WG flapper wasent opening enough you would have boost creep not slow spool you have an exhaust leak somewhere between the head and turbo or at the WG flapper seat itself. what psi is your WGA?

my WGA is 14lb actuator. Check out my latest 4th gear log located above. I'm not having nay boost creep that I can see. There should be enough load on the flapper to have a tight seal so i'm also positive it's not leaking there and the flapper itself opens just over 1/4", has anyone else measured to see how far their flapper opens?

Right now everyone is leaning towards exhaust leaks so maybe i'll get myself a new exhaust gasket and replace it. The gasket between the turbo and the manifold looked perfectly fine and was still in great shape. If there is no black soot on the turbo gasket then it should be fine right?

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Could you log VVT as well if this isn't solved by the next time you log?

yes i can log vvt. Any other feedback on that recent log I just uploaded? No signs of boost creep right?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 my WGA is 14lb actuator. Check out my latest 4th gear log located above. I'm not having nay boost creep that I can see. There should be enough load on the flapper to have a tight seal so i'm also positive it's not leaking there and the flapper itself opens just over 1/4", has anyone else measured to see how far their flapper opens? Right now everyone is leaning towards exhaust leaks so maybe i'll get myself a new exhaust gasket and replace it. The gasket between the turbo and the manifold looked perfectly fine and was still in great shape. If there is no black soot on the turbo gasket then it should be fine right? yes i can log vvt. Any other feedback on that recent log I just uploaded? No signs of boost creep right?

You look to be @ roughly 26 psi nearing redline for some time, so boost should be controllable, imo without any problem once you get spool sorted.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You look to be @ roughly 26 psi nearing redline for some time, so boost should be controllable, imo without any problem once you get spool sorted.

Yep hitting boost targets is not a problem its just my slow spool times. Since i'm able to hold and maintain boost does that still indicate a possible exhaust leak for my slow spool times or could it be issues with my wastegate and preload?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 Yep hitting boost targets is not a problem its just my slow spool times. Since i'm able to hold and maintain boost does that still indicate a possible exhaust leak for my slow spool times or could it be issues with my wastegate and preload?

@ this point, given what you posted above and that you've tested for leaks, I'd say (echo) what cld12pk2go said above that it may be a geometry issue with the wg arm.

[rfinkle2]

You mentioned that you hooked up the GS and your stock EBCS and had similar results.

If the GS is hooked up in 2 port mode, it will act similar to the factory 2 port.

Is the Grimmspeed definitely in 3 port mode?

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You mentioned that you hooked up the GS and your stock EBCS and had similar results. If the GS is hooked up in 2 port mode, it will act similar to the factory 2 port. Is the Grimmspeed definitely in 3 port mode?

To have it be in 3 port mode is just have 3 boost lines connected to it right? If that's not correct how do I put it in 3 port mode

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[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 To have it be in 3 port mode is just have 3 boost lines connected to it right? If that's not correct how do I put it in 3 port mode Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

if you have the same problem with MBC as EBC then neither of those is your problem.

its still a mechanical issue IMO

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes if you have the same problem with MBC as EBC then neither of those is your problem. its still a mechanical issue IMO

Word.

Also expressed in post previous to yours.

I just know that a bleed style BCS set-up takes a minute to spool these GTX's
and thought I was onto something.

Sorry Matrix.. BTW, port 1 can be vta or routed back into the tip so that shouldn't matter.

[rfinkle2]

If it isn't set up this way and you do have it in 2 port mode (bleed), make sure your tuner knows you switched modes of operation before you boost.

ATP quick tap to port 3, WGA to port 2.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If it isn't set up this way and you do have it in 2 port mode (bleed), make sure your tuner knows you switched modes of operation before you boost. ATP quick tap to port 3, WGA to port 2.

I have all 3 ports used. Port 1 goes to my htp tip. Ports 2 and 3 are hooked up as mentioned above

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[Matrix311]

I ran another log just a moment ago with the map I have upladed on post #1 . This is with the MBC cracked wide open. It's holding boost steady up top but the spool time still just isn't there. Check out this 4th gear data log with MBC wide open. Thoughts?

also does anyone know if I can buy a new exhaust manifold gasket from napa, checker, autozone etc? If so do you have the compatible part number? I want to make sure it's the speed3 gasket and not the regular 3 gasket.

See attached new log:

[rfinkle2]

Could you log VVT as well if this isn't solved by the next time you log?

[86AmishMs3]

Do you see any visible exhaust leaks. I still think its the actuator, it's opening early reducing spool time

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Do you see any visible exhaust leaks. I still think its the actuator, it's opening early reducing spool time

How would I correct this? Pull the turbo again and fix the geometry of the chra and hotside?

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 How would I correct this? Pull the turbo again and fix the geometry of the chra and hotside?

Worth a try....like I said its trial and error. Now that you threw the geometry off you need to get it back to normal mang. Get one variable out of the equation....but honestly idk...ATPs wastegate and wastegate design is a total crapshoot.

[evidence]

On the note of the leak not showing up under idle loads, I recommended he bounce off the 3k LC rev limiter and building a bit of boost while taking in Sea Foam. Obviously it won't be simulating street loads, but it's an easy test that has a chance to highlight a weak spot.

[sikksohc]

I browsed threw this and didn't see anything mentioned about boost leaks, do you have access to a smoke machine to check for a possible leak in intercooler piping?

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by sikksohc I browsed threw this and didn't see anything mentioned about boost leaks, do you have access to a smoke machine to check for a possible leak in intercooler piping?

I have tested for boost leaks and all checked out just fine. Thanks for the recommendation. Anything else come to mind?

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[Boost_creep]

Have you tried running the boost source directly to the wg actuator, and just running spring pressure? See how your boost responds this way, and it should be a very easy indicator of whether its a mechanical issue, or tuning issue. You obviously will not reach your boost targets in the higher rpm's but you will see exactly how the wastegate/turbo is behaving.

[sikksohc]

Originally Posted by Boost_creep Have you tried running the boost source directly to the wg actuator, and just running spring pressure? See how your boost responds this way, and it should be a very easy indicator of whether its a mechanical issue, or tuning issue. You obviously will not reach your boost targets in the higher rpm's but you will see exactly how the wastegate/turbo is behaving.

This, it may just be a faulty wga, but seeing as how you modified it, it may be hard to get it warrantied.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Boost_creep Have you tried running the boost source directly to the wg actuator, and just running spring pressure? See how your boost responds this way, and it should be a very easy indicator of whether its a mechanical issue, or tuning issue. You obviously will not reach your boost targets in the higher rpm's but you will see exactly how the wastegate/turbo is behaving.

He already used a mbc on lowest setting so he's already done this.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by sikksohc This, it may just be a faulty wga, but seeing as how you modified it, it may be hard to get it warrantied.

Post above is correct. I disconnected my ecbs and used a mbc on lowest setting and spool times are a hair quicker but still around 4200rpm. I also tried this with my ecbs connected and ran a zero wastegate map and no difference in spool times.

Anything else to try?

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[cld12pk2go]

If no leaks were found changing the mani gaskets, then I would next try a new WGA unless ATP has a better idea...

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go If no leaks were found changing the mani gaskets, then I would next try a new WGA unless ATP has a better idea...

I have not gotten to the gaskets yet. I was hoping to do it this past weekend but time did not permit. I will try to get to it this weekend or sometime next week.

[Matrix311]

Ordered 3 new gaskets from Edge on Monday. I have the head to manifold, manifold to turbo and turbo to downpipe gaskets on the way. I plan on pulling the turbo one more time and clocking it slightly different. Right now the angle of the turbo where the hotpipe connects to it is angled in towards the engine block. It needs to be rotated towards the firewall about 1/4". I dont like the connection between the hotpipe to turbo coupler.

When I pull the turbo i'll take a video of how far i have the wga arm preloaded and also the operation of the flapper to show the movement to everyone. Video would be much easier then photos or me telling you over text.

I'm hoping between replacing all these gaskets which have 82,000 miles on them, clocking the turbo as close to correct as possible, that this will fix my problem. If it doesn't then i'll be lost even more since everyone is betting on an exhaust leak at the moment.

Thanks again for all your help. I'll try to have an update over the next week or two if i find time to work on it.

[Matrix311]

Here are what my gaskets look like when I removed them. Thoughts? From the looks of them could there have been an exhaust leak or do they look perfectly fine?

[Etipp98]

Look good to me, usually you will see all black from inner to outer edge if there was a leak.

[802MS3]

other side of gaskets ok?

[Navy_Mech2]

yea man gaskets look fine. like Etipp98 said you would see a black streak going from the center to the outside edge if it was leaking

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Navy_Mech2 yea man gaskets look fine. like Etipp98 said you would see a black streak going from the center to the outside edge if it was leaking

All gaskets have been replaced anyways. Thanks for the reply

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