Knock retard - Big Turbo - Pro tuned

[rorys speed]

Ok, so I have a 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 which is fully built. 3076 turbo, wiseco pistons, k1 rods, upgraded fuel pump internals, FMIC, all solid motor/tranny mounts, one step colder plugs, C-pe cai, c-pe TIP, Turbo Smart BPV, ACT street clutch, catless turbo back exhaust and of course the AP. I think thats all of the important stuff. Most of these upgrades are due to a engine that I blew about 4 months ago. So, I took out a loan and bought all of the parts that I thought would be "safe". As we all know the rods in these engines are crap and the K04 turbo is junk.
So after the engine was rebuilt I took it right up to Ptuning ( 3 hours away) who does Cobb Pro tuning. About a month later, I got the car back. The car is a rocket now I'll give it that. But being that I can't afford another $6,500 I have been monitoring everything very closely ESPECIALLY the knock retard. The knock retard is the reason for this post. I am seeing knock retard all over the map. All the way up to 8.0!! Before the engine blew last time I had hardly any knock. So, this is the weird thing the knock always starts off at 0.3 then about a minute later it goes to 0.7 (sometimes its different) then further down the road it will spike to a high number (like 3.5 all the way up to 8.0). Sometimes it will hit say 7.0 then it will scale back, like 7.0, 6.5, 5.3, 4.8 3.4 etc. It counts back. When I am WOT its solid 0 all the way through (which is good).
I don't know if its because I have solid motor mounts everywhere now or because the ACT clutch is so damn loud and the car vibrates allot now. I don't know if the plugs need to be replaced. I got the plugs about 5 months ago. But the plugs have been beaten on since then. I know when they were tuning the car they got on it several times. The plugs are gapped to .24-.25 (somewhere in there).
So, my question is what the hell is going on? Is anyone else having this problem. Is something wrong with my car already? Any help from anyone with an idea would be greatly appreciated. I also have data logs if anyone is interested. Thanks guys!

[crazyp]

if this is just cruising around knock I believe the general consensus is its just the computer doing its thing and nothing to worry about. I get it worse on a cold engine though. WOT nothing. people are still trying to see if they can get rid of it but so far its just one of those things.

BTW thats a niice build how much boost you pushing?

oh and post the logs, no reason not to

[bmylez]

You are extremely misinformed about both the stock rods and the k04. kmac is pushing 494whp on a stock motor. The stock rods aren't the problem, the tune typically is. Also, if you're running e85, the k04 can pump out some super serial torque.

Anyway, what you are describing is totally normal. I get tons of phantom KR at part throttle. You can ignore it. What really matters is open loop KR. If you're getting significant KR at moderate to high load levels (over 1.0, for example), that's a problem.

[dougefresh_]

Don't sweat PT kr like these two said. Post a 4th gear pull trimmed to just the wot section.

In before someone with no help gives OP shit for taking out a loan to build his engine. Oh, and check your plugs.

[Karmat]

The consensus is that knock experienced under cruising conditions is nothing serious. Detonation under light load does not induce the kind of pressures the engine would experience at high load.

There seem to be some theories floating around to the cause of partial throttle/cruising knock which are related either to ECU logic which may be advancing timing to maximize MPGs while cruising and then pulling back timing once it experiences knock, or it is related to the sensitivity of the knock sensor and engine noise resonance at specific rpm under cruising conditions that trips the sensor.

It is possible that the resonance theory has some truth to it especially in your case as you have a forged motor which is generally a little noisy to begin with combined with solid engine mounts.

[kmac]

Does the car have floating wrist pins

[rorys speed]

Thanks guys for all of the insight. Should I still monitor it you think? As for the k0r and stock rods. The very few people who have made the car successful will only have problems down the road. Those parts are not made to withstand that much power. I have attached a copy of a pull I did with knock retard. It wasn't a full pull because of the road I was on. Let me know what you all think.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by rorys speed As for the k0r and stock rods. The very few people who have made the car successful will only have problems down the road. Those parts are not made to withstand that much power.

So you need help w a part throttle kr question, but you can tell us about the strength and longevity of stock rods and k04? Lulz... I have ridden w jwilkins multiple times and he treats his car like shit! He has over 15000 on a 3076, most of it over 400whp AND has infiboosted many many many times, yet his motor anyway, is fine. Cold pack to go beat the shit out of his ko4 for over two years and ended at over 300whp before it to ally went and Lenny has over 70k w a 3071, and we all know how he treats his car... You are following beliefs that have been long dismissed.

Phate is also making over 400tq on a k04 and although he has not been doing it for too long, his motor is fine.

[rorys speed]

Oh and I'm pushing 22 psi. Sorry I meant to answer that in the last post.

[crazyp]

you should add mass airflow and accel pos.
here is one of mine as an example, and that motor has alot more power to be had. Needs a PERM tune

im on stock block btw

[zx2man]

OP..............

I dont know how often you come in here, I do not know how well your follow the progress of this platform. It would seem like very little based off your opinions.

So let me keep it simple for you sir; The stock rods are not weak. Will they hold major power like upgraded Carrillos or Pauters? NO. But there are many guys in here running 2871-3071-3076 turbos..Precision Turbos ect on stock engine with 400+ whp for many miles and some fore couple years now.

Up and till couple years ago, alot of guys were blowing...improper tunes and mis-understanding of the mazda ecu was the culprit of many, along with horrible fueling issues. No one has blown yet from too much power on a proper tune on stock rods. If you disagree, thats up to you, but you would be wrong, and many highly intelligent gearheads in here would also say you are wrong.

The k04 turbo is too small for this 2.3 liter engine IMHO, and thats why many of us in here are going bigger. BUT for what it is, it does alright..quick spool and if tuned with supporting mods, can give you around 300 whp and 300-350 wtq..even close to 400 wtq on e85 it would seem.

[speedms6]

as for your tune, you are knocking alot on spool up, not sure who did your tune, but i feel like there is more power to be had and safer, have you downloaded atr?

[rorys speed]

Yeah I have ATR but for some reason I can't open the tune that Ptuning did. So its hard for me to see what they did.

[SWAY]

Do a seperate perm tune, you may even like it better that way you know whats going on with your tune i know i would like to know.

[Chimmike]

That ptuning tune is for shit. You see your AFRs all over the place?

fuck man. Even worse if you're on stock MAF (2.5" piping).

Learn to log. Then go read Abilor's tuning guide, then read some more in the tuning section.

Frankly, if you have no idea how to monitor this shit and tune minor things yourself, you probably shouldn't own a heavily modified car. Ignorance does not = bliss with modified cars, it equals kaboom.

+1 to what everyone said about stock rods not being weak. Unless you have proof, you're wrong. The rods weren't weak, you just had a shit tune..........which is nobody's fault but your own.

when loggng, you want all those params that you have PLUS MAF flow (g/s), acc pedal position, BAT's, and you can ditch fuel inj amt.

good luck. You're gonna need it.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by chimmike That ptuning tune is for shit. You see your AFRs all over the place? fuck man. Even worse if you're on stock MAF (2.5" piping). Learn to log. Then go read Abilor's tuning guide, then read some more in the tuning section. Frankly, if you have no idea how to monitor this shit and tune minor things yourself, you probably shouldn't own a heavily modified car. Ignorance does not = bliss with modified cars, it equals kaboom. +1 to what everyone said about stock rods not being weak. Unless you have proof, you're wrong. The rods weren't weak, you just had a shit tune..........which is nobody's fault but your own. when loggng, you want all those params that you have PLUS MAF flow (g/s), acc pedal position, BAT's, and you can ditch fuel inj amt. good luck. You're gonna need it.

I am on the 2.5 Maf running my turbo just fine.

No offense OP but this is exactly why I do my own work and would never pay someone to throw parts on my car and tune it. Your knock is part throttle "knock" and although annoying doesn't matter.

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by dsmluck I am on the 2.5 Maf running my turbo just fine. No offense OP but this is exactly why I do my own work and would never pay someone to throw parts on my car and tune it. Your knock is part throttle "knock" and although annoying doesn't matter.

I think my comment could've been easily misunderstood. My intent was to point out that ptuning didn't have to scale the MAF in any way, yet their "pro" tune had AFR's all over the freakin' board.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by chimmike I think my comment could've been easily misunderstood. My intent was to point out that ptuning didn't have to scale the MAF in any way, yet their "pro" tune had AFR's all over the freakin' board.

Ahh gotcha likely a reading fail on my part. The stock MAF may in fact be choking my power on the top end at this point anyway. Its a mute point though as my IDC is maxed.

[rorys speed]

Did I bring all of the assholes to this post? I'm asking for help and all you guys wanna do is bash the new guy. I don't understand fellow ms3 owners its like a huge hate fest. And if a new person needs help lets not help him,lets bash him because "he doesn't know how to do that, WTF? What an idiot". What is this fucking high school?!? Fuck,really? If someone doesn't wanna be a complete dick your help is greatly appreciated.

How do I get a separate PERM tune? Does it cost $$ Because after everything I just put into the car I am completely broke.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by rorys speed Did I bring all of the assholes to this post? I'm asking for help and all you guys wanna do is bash the new guy. I don't understand fellow ms3 owners its like a huge hate fest. And if a new person needs help lets not help him,lets bash him because "he doesn't know how to do that, WTF? What an idiot". What is this fucking high school?!? Fuck,really? If someone doesn't wanna be a complete dick your help is greatly appreciated. How do I get a separate PERM tune? Does it cost $$ Because after everything I just put into the car I am completely broke.

Are you fucking kidding me? This is not bashing, things could be a lot worse. You have mainly received kind responses, and even the ones that were a bit harsh (like mine) still contained good information in them (like giving examples of why u are incorrect about stock rods and k04). Obviously you have problems when it comes to being picked on a bit... Lighten up and take advantage of all the useful info that has been given.

Also, most of the criticism has been not towards the problems w your tune but for you stating false information about these cars.

And like has already been said, get a perm because from the looks of it, you are not getting your 6.5k worth.

[speedms6]

yes perm costs money, read this whole entire thing page for page.
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...e-noobs-83959/

[rorys speed]

What do I need to do to get a PERM tune?

Just stressed guys... The blown motor almost ended my marriage. Then shortly after then engine blew I got laid off, then bills piled up. I'm stressed so sorry if I'm being over sensitive. Please don't take it personal.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by rorys speed What do I need to do to get a PERM tune? Just stressed guys... The blown motor almost ended my marriage. Then shortly after then engine blew I got laid off, then bills piled up. I'm stressed so sorry if I'm being over sensitive. Please don't take it personal.

Sounds like a country song.

Check out their section under vendors. It is probably the cheapest quality tune available and run by the most knowledgable members on the forum pretty much.

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by rorys speed What do I need to do to get a PERM tune? Just stressed guys... The blown motor almost ended my marriage. Then shortly after then engine blew I got laid off, then bills piled up. I'm stressed so sorry if I'm being over sensitive. Please don't take it personal.

so after you got laid off, bills piled up, you thought it a good idea to take out a loan to build the motor?

I'm starting to not feel sorry for you......

[chieftjs]

Re-flash the tune to stock and start over using Abilor's Guide. Even if you could read that pro-tune, there is no reason to start from something that is full of issues.

[rorys speed]

I owe to much for the car and there would be no way I could have sold the car in the state it was in. Plus I had no other form of transportation.

[Jake5713]

Originally Posted by rorys speed I owe to much for the car and there would be no way I could have sold the car in the state it was in. Plus I had no other form of transportation.

Your feet, bus, pedal bike, etc
Perm is 200 dorrah
Read abilors guide and tune it yourself
Or ask a knowledgable forum member to take pity and tune your shit


-Jake

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

You need to some more research on here, there are tons of post about knock at cruising speeds, and take more logs to narrow down where the KR is prominent.

The reason people are flaming you is because you were making inaccurate claims about parts on the car based on a lack of research. Take your time look around the forum, use the search button, if you can't find what it is your looking for, say "hey just searched for this and couldn't find anything can someone help me out?"

There are a couple of tuning groups on here and i'm sure they would be more then happy to talk about your tune with you and if you need to change some things. Yes they charge for making changes, however you will have to discuss that with them.

[rorys speed]

I'm going to do another data log tonight in 4th and post it to see what you guys think.

[crazyp]

we want to see full wot 2500 to 6700 please

[dougefresh_]

Unless you're (meaning one, not OP per se) completely retarded, it's pretty obvious that OP most likely paid to have most of his shit (if not all) installed, and obviously the tune done. I have no problem with that at all... but a lot of people do, and for no good reason, imho. Tuning is difficult, which is why they have an industry niche, and they get paid well for their work. I never turned a wrench or even sung a tune before this car, and learned out of $$ necessity. Does that mean my car is any more special than someone who paid to have the parts installed and the tune paid for? I'd say no, except I no longer trust anyone wrenching on my car, because they'll fuck it up, and they have, lol. That, and I know what's going on w/ my car, and how to deal with the recurrent fail (or I ask one of my friends on here).

Originally Posted by SWAY Do a seperate perm tune, you may even like it better that way you know whats going on with your tune i know i would like to know.

Originally Posted by rorys speed Did I bring all of the assholes to this post? I'm asking for help and all you guys wanna do is bash the new guy. I don't understand fellow ms3 owners its like a huge hate fest. And if a new person needs help lets not help him,lets bash him because "he doesn't know how to do that, WTF? What an idiot". What is this fucking high school?!? Fuck,really? If someone doesn't wanna be a complete dick your help is greatly appreciated. How do I get a separate PERM tune? Does it cost $$ Because after everything I just put into the car I am completely broke.

OP... here http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ow-perm-89747/ and here http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ne-list-89893/. Dustin and his small network of tuners are the best for this platform, hands down, and ridiculously cheap. I suggest you read the helpfile (never read albitor or w/e's his name is tuning guide, so I can't comment), and do your best to understand the fundamentals. Once you fully understand the maf cal (pretty steep learning curve) the rest isn't as bad.

My buddy that sold his half of his (successful) high performance shop to his partner (and had a self built 650hp 68' Camaro SS/RS when we were 18.. we're 35 now) knows next to nothing about tuning. His current street legal self built 99' vette is running a 9.5 @ 147.... is he a retarded noob? Well, he's no pro-tuner, that's for sure. He pays hefty for his tunes.... 700 at some place in CT iirc. He also has a roomful of drag racing trophies you can argue with. Point is, even if you can wrench (I can't very well) and tune (can't do that well either), don't hate on niggas that pay to get shit done, and it isn't their bag.

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 So you need help w a part throttle kr question, but you can tell us about the strength and longevity of stock rods and k04? Lulz... I have ridden w jwilkins multiple times and he treats his car like shit! He has over 15000 on a 3076, most of it over 400whp AND has infiboosted many many many times, yet his motor anyway, is fine. Cold pack to go beat the shit out of his ko4 for over two years and ended at over 300whp before it to ally went and Lenny has over 70k w a 3071, and we all know how he treats his car... You are following beliefs that have been long dismissed. Phate is also making over 400tq on a k04 and although he has not been doing it for too long, his motor is fine.

Not to be a stickler, but Lenny's compression has been off for awhile. Not sure why, nce.

Originally Posted by rorys speed What do I need to do to get a PERM tune? Just stressed guys... The blown motor almost ended my marriage. Then shortly after then engine blew I got laid off, then bills piled up. I'm stressed so sorry if I'm being over sensitive. Please don't take it personal.

Dude, this forum can be harsh, esp for noobs, and esp for noobs that had all their shit done for them and are clueless (which you are, and no offense intended). I suggest hooking up a PERM tune while going you're homework at the same time, so you understand how/what's going on, and how to properly keep an eye on things.

PS. This forum has the best tech info you'll find, but if you don't do your hw, you'll get eaten up.

[Phoenix Speed3]

First, I want to say thanks to OP for this post. I am in the middle of a perm tune and I am keeping an eye on KR and for the most part I do see some .03 and .07 at part throttle and figure that it is not worth noting. On occasion, at WOT, I have seen a spike into the 3 area which is of little concern because of the extreme rarity. Like the op I have stiffened things up around the engine; since this KR is very rarely showing up past .07 I heed no major sweat. The computer uses a logic generated sensor that isn't the end all be all of KR sensing. I am running around 20 psi on a 3076, extra rich as of now.

I do, however, believe the weakest link is the rods. I am not saying they can't handle boost. I have seen some impressive numbers on stock internals. NO MATTER how strong a chain is there is a weak link somewhere. In these motors the rods are just that, IMHO. (I am purposely leaving the CDFP aka HPFP out of this since it isn't an internal component of the engine.) In every engine there is a component that will be weaker then another. In my H22A it was the block itself; with my QR25DE and 4G63 it was the crank. I don't have nearly as much knowledge on or research put into the 2.3 DISI as many on here but, I do know about @WhoIsJeremy and his "flying racecar" problem. Stronger pistons just might have saved him a lot of trouble. I am sure there is more to the story I am forgetting.

Back to the OP, it sounds like you need a new tune. Hopefully this thread can yield positive information and feedback that betters everyone's understand, especially my own.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

@dougefresh_ wasn't his compression off before going bt though? ... Nce

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 @dougefresh_ wasn't his compression off before going bt though? ... Nce

Probably, but idk for sure, Nce, lol

[WhoIsJeremy]

@superskaterxes I believe it was said something about ptuning being a not so good shop. I might be your tune if that's the case

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJeremy @superskaterxes I believe it was said something about ptuning being a not so good shop. I might be your tune if that's the case

ptuning is def garbage when it comes to tuning. i would never go there or send someone there.

[6oost3d]

Yea they're retarded, they tried to tell me the ATP Drop in would not fit. Also I would need a new downpipe because the CPE one would not match it, and my favorite:

" You will need a new front mount intercooler and piping, your piping is designed only for the K04".

[srt4monster]

Originally Posted by rorys speed Ok, so I have a 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 which is fully built. 3076 turbo, wiseco pistons, k1 rods, upgraded fuel pump internals, FMIC, all solid motor/tranny mounts, one step colder plugs, C-pe cai, c-pe TIP, Turbo Smart BPV, ACT street clutch, catless turbo back exhaust and of course the AP. I think thats all of the important stuff. Most of these upgrades are due to a engine that I blew about 4 months ago. So, I took out a loan and bought all of the parts that I thought would be "safe". As we all know the rods in these engines are crap and the K04 turbo is junk. So after the engine was rebuilt I took it right up to Ptuning ( 3 hours away) who does Cobb Pro tuning. About a month later, I got the car back. The car is a rocket now I'll give it that. But being that I can't afford another $6,500 I have been monitoring everything very closely ESPECIALLY the knock retard. The knock retard is the reason for this post. I am seeing knock retard all over the map. All the way up to 8.0!! Before the engine blew last time I had hardly any knock. So, this is the weird thing the knock always starts off at 0.3 then about a minute later it goes to 0.7 (sometimes its different) then further down the road it will spike to a high number (like 3.5 all the way up to 8.0). Sometimes it will hit say 7.0 then it will scale back, like 7.0, 6.5, 5.3, 4.8 3.4 etc. It counts back. When I am WOT its solid 0 all the way through (which is good). I don't know if its because I have solid motor mounts everywhere now or because the ACT clutch is so damn loud and the car vibrates allot now. I don't know if the plugs need to be replaced. I got the plugs about 5 months ago. But the plugs have been beaten on since then. I know when they were tuning the car they got on it several times. The plugs are gapped to .24-.25 (somewhere in there). So, my question is what the hell is going on? Is anyone else having this problem. Is something wrong with my car already? Any help from anyone with an idea would be greatly appreciated. I also have data logs if anyone is interested. Thanks guys!

Send a datalog to tunes@pt-performance.com and I am sure he can help. I suspect that the extra clearance from the forged pistons might cause some noise. What is your knock sensor TQ'ed to. If you screw up that spec with the SRT4 you will get incorrect readings from the sensor.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by srt4monster Send a datalog to tunes@pt-performance.com and I am sure he can help. I suspect that the extra clearance from the forged pistons might cause some noise. What is your knock sensor TQ'ed to. If you screw up that spec with the SRT4 you will get incorrect readings from the sensor.

Jesus john.... kinda hitting a new low here.




OP... built motors will make a lil more noise than oem. Tolerances are slightly looser, even with coated piston skirts etc. Motor noise KR typically happens between 2500 - 3500 rpm, and ~ 0.4 to 0.7 calc load. The built motor on my 6 does it til the oil and motor warms up to temp. Even my new stock block ms3 does it as well (probably worse than my 6 honestly).

Last time Trey was working in ATR, he asked a few of us for suggestions on specifics on what we'd really like to have access to. One of the main things on my list was all the knock tables, which he found Now we have the ability to not only allow when the knock sensor functions (like which rpm to shut off at, or which calc load to start "listening"), but we also have access to the tables that are used to "calibrate" the knock sensor. On my 6, i simply adjusted down the sensitivity of the sensor in that noisy rpm / load zone. This might be all you need as well.

Also, David at cobb has possibly located a few more good knock sensor tables which will hopefully be released in the next revision.

So chances are.... your just seeing a phenomenon many of us already see, built or not. I think your probably more than safe.


But.... just to play devil's advocate here (and because i'm working with a guy right now who's "shop" did one of the worst motor builds i've ever heard of)... you wanna rule out real concern. A motor that is mis-timed will often times show KR alot during part throttle cruise, and usually, depending on the tune, during wot. Checking timing on the motor isn't that difficult, and it might be in your best interest to give it a shot. I could explain how to do it if you feel up to it (in fact i'd rather make a thread out of it so others can benefit as well).

It may also be a good idea to get a sandwich plate and oil pressure sensor if you don't have one already. You should see at a minimum 20-25psi at idle, and 50-60 at cruise.


GL man.

[Jake5713]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Jesus john.... kinda hitting a new low here. OP... built motors will make a lil more noise than oem. Tolerances are slightly looser, even with coated piston skirts etc. Motor noise KR typically happens between 2500 - 3500 rpm, and ~ 0.4 to 0.7 calc load. The built motor on my 6 does it til the oil and motor warms up to temp. Even my new stock block ms3 does it as well (probably worse than my 6 honestly). Last time Trey was working in ATR, he asked a few of us for suggestions on specifics on what we'd really like to have access to. One of the main things on my list was all the knock tables, which he found Now we have the ability to not only allow when the knock sensor functions (like which rpm to shut off at, or which calc load to start "listening"), but we also have access to the tables that are used to "calibrate" the knock sensor. On my 6, i simply adjusted down the sensitivity of the sensor in that noisy rpm / load zone. This might be all you need as well. Also, David at cobb has possibly located a few more good knock sensor tables which will hopefully be released in the next revision. So chances are.... your just seeing a phenomenon many of us already see, built or not. I think your probably more than safe. But.... just to play devil's advocate here (and because i'm working with a guy right now who's "shop" did one of the worst motor builds i've ever heard of)... you wanna rule out real concern. A motor that is mis-timed will often times show KR alot during part throttle cruise, and usually, depending on the tune, during wot. Checking timing on the motor isn't that difficult, and it might be in your best interest to give it a shot. I could explain how to do it if you feel up to it (in fact i'd rather make a thread out of it so others can benefit as well). It may also be a good idea to get a sandwich plate and oil pressure sensor if you don't have one already. You should see at a minimum 20-25psi at idle, and 50-60 at cruise. GL man.

Listen to the pro op


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=44.739784,-93.107950
-Jake