New turbo time!

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Alright fellas, I have had some blow-by issues for a while and decided I am going to build and go with a different turbo setup. I will be going with a built short block from sp63 with the basic stuff, and then comes the turbo...

Currently I am debating between a GTX3076 with a tial .63 or .82 hot-side (more spool or more top end, still not sure) OR a precision 5858CEA ball bearing. The garret is just a bit more expensive than the precision and seems to be everyone's favorite but more and more precision builds are popping up with some impressive results. And searching on other platform's forums give me mixed reviews.

I have done quite a bit of research but there is very little data on our platform with the 5858, or even different hot-sides on the gtx3076. I am looking for decent spool but good flow in the higher rpm range. I just don't want to be disappointed that I went one way or the other so any advice is appreciated.

On a side note I have also started considering a gt35 as well, but it may be a bit over kill for my goal of 500+

[LumberJack]

Precision 5858 > Gtx3076

[kritz]

6262!

[atvfreek]

Both of those precision turbos will spool slower than the gtx3076. Jus sayin lol

But if you are going for 500+ I would just go with the 6262, cause your 500+ will quickly turn to 600+

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Both of those precision turbos will spool slower than the gtx3076. Jus sayin lol

I beg to differ on a 5858 that thing will light up with whatever you can give it by 3500

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[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by LumberJack I beg to differ on a 5858 that thing will light up with whatever you can give it by 3500 Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

No way. I just tuned one and that 5858 was struggling to make 20psi by 3700ish. That was on a speed6.

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by atvfreek No way. I just tuned one and that 5858 was struggling to make 20psi by 3700ish. That was on a speed6.

Hmmm weird. Slowest spooling 5858 ever. I've seen those things make 30+ at 3800rpm and less

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[Voltwings]

Garrett themselves has said the 3076 is a miss-matched turbo. You may as well go with the 3576 if you're going that route, because its the main reason the GTx technology was developed (or at least theres a large ammount of synergy between the two). 5858 should spool faster, and since you're not really worried about having a drop in option it rules the convenience factor of the garrett out, so my vote would be the 5858 since its cheaper as well.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Garrett themselves has said the 3076 is a miss-matched turbo. You may as well go with the 3576 if you're going that route, because its the main reason the GTx technology was developed (or at least theres a large ammount of synergy between the two). 5858 should spool faster, and since you're not really worried about having a drop in option it rules the convenience factor of the garrett out, so my vote would be the 5858 since its cheaper as well.

Mismatched how?

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by atvfreek No way. I just tuned one and that 5858 was struggling to make 20psi by 3700ish. That was on a speed6.

Ball bearing or journal?

Originally Posted by Voltwings Garrett themselves has said the 3076 is a miss-matched turbo. You may as well go with the 3576 if you're going that route, because its the main reason the GTx technology was developed (or at least theres a large ammount of synergy between the two). 5858 should spool faster, and since you're not really worried about having a drop in option it rules the convenience factor of the garrett out, so my vote would be the 5858 since its cheaper as well.

When do you get full boost on yours?

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Ball bearing or journal?

Honestly ball bearing typically only helps spool by 100rpm or so in my experieces. BB is typically transient response between gears

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[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by LumberJack Honestly ball bearing typically only helps spool by 100rpm or so in my experieces. BB is typically transient response between gears Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

Ah okay. So then is the ball bearing worth the extra cost? If not then it cuts the cost down quite a bit.

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Ah okay. So then is the ball bearing worth the extra cost? If not then it cuts the cost down quite a bit.

I've never personally thought it was unless that was the only option for that turbo such as a 6466 is only BB. You can get a JB 5858 and an entire new manifold for the price of a gtx

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[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by hnda etr Mismatched how? The turbine vs compressor is an ineffecient setup, which is why they went on to pair the 76mm turbine with the 35 compresor series. When do you get full boost on yours?

i could have 30+ psi by 4k if i wanted, it didnt have trouble spooling, but the part throttle / around town driving kind of left a lot to be desired. I had my throttle ramped up courtesry of SnailD's table and had a decent amount of low end wastegate, but it was never going to be like the K04, so i was never going to be TRUELY happy with it. The 3576 makes awesome power, buti missed my 3071 the second i took it off. [/quote]

Edit: well somehow i fucked that multi quote up haha

[Lex]

Ball bearings are also not rebuildable and don't take as much abuse as journal bearings but respond faster.

When choosing a turbo you really need to know what you're looking for. Do you want response or a lot of top end? How do you drive the car? A 2871 is great in the city but not a 1/4 mile king. A 35 frame is great for high speed pulls. For response, EFR is probably best of the bigger turbos but limited manifold options.

Some disagree but if you want the car to be a daily, I would not want a 35 unless you have a lot of very long and straight roads in your area and like those pulls. In the canyons, city, where there are turns and lots of transients I would not want something larger than a 30 frame on this size motor.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by atvfreek No way. I just tuned one and that 5858 was struggling to make 20psi by 3700ish. That was on a speed6.

it may be a bust turbo, im tuning a JB 6262 ms3 that can have 21 psi by 3900 rpms without trying too terribly hard. ITs not going to get much better though.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by LumberJack I've never personally thought it was unless that was the only option for that turbo such as a 6466 is only BB. You can get a JB 5858 and an entire new manifold for the price of a gtx Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

Exactly thats a hell of a deal

Originally Posted by Voltwings i could have 30+ psi by 4k if i wanted, it didnt have trouble spooling, but the part throttle / around town driving kind of left a lot to be desired. I had my throttle ramped up courtesry of SnailD's table and had a decent amount of low end wastegate, but it was never going to be like the K04, so i was never going to be TRUELY happy with it. The 3576 makes awesome power, buti missed my 3071 the second i took it off.

Thats what I want to avoid. I don't want to be pissed that drivability around town sucks but I want a bit more flow than the 3071.

Originally Posted by Voltwings it may be a bust turbo, im tuning a JB 6262 ms3 that can have 21 psi by 3900 rpms without trying too terribly hard. ITs not going to get much better though.

What would you expect the 5858 to do?

[Lex]

Let's also not forget that unless you plan on 5th port, a bigger turbo than a 3071 is just a waste and you pay for it in response.

I would keep the turbo you have and put the money into some nice flow work on the motor, a nice exhaust manifold.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Lex Ball bearings are also not rebuildable and don't take as much abuse as journal bearings but respond faster. When choosing a turbo you really need to know what you're looking for. Do you want response or a lot of top end? How do you drive the car? A 2871 is great in the city but not a 1/4 mile king. A 35 frame is great for high speed pulls. For response, EFR is probably best of the bigger turbos but limited manifold options. Some disagree but if you want the car to be a daily, I would not want a 35 unless you have a lot of very long and straight roads in your area and like those pulls. In the canyons, city, where there are turns and lots of transients I would not want something larger than a 30 frame on this size motor.

Only thing about the efr is the price. No doubt they are a great turbo, fast spool and great flow, but my wallet already hates me haha. I liked my 3071 just wish it had a bit more top end which is why I started with the gtx3076 with a better hot-side.

But you did make up my mind to cancel the gt35 out.

Originally Posted by Lex Let's also not forget that unless you plan on 5th port, a bigger turbo than a 3071 is just a waste and you pay for it in response. I would keep the turbo you have and put the money into some nice flow work on the motor, a nice exhaust manifold.

I do plan on 5th port with the new motor as well. Forgot to mention that.

Also the turbo is sold to go toward teh motor so I need a new one anyway.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive What would you expect the 5858 to do?

i have no earthly idea, but I agree with Lex, seems like a solid course of action.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Only thing about the efr is the price. No doubt they are a great turbo, fast spool and great flow, but my wallet already hates me haha. I liked my 3071 just wish it had a bit more top end which is why I started with the gtx3076 with a better hot-side. But you did make up my mind to cancel the gt35 out.

Did you maximize the flow potential of the GTX3071 already?

Something else to keep in mind. The power you make is dependent on combustion and your combustion suffers when IDCs close in on 100% which you will get to no problem using the 3071.

You will pick up a decent amount of power if you offset some of the OEM fueling

Lol, you have to put in all the pertinent info! I still vote for some flow work on the motor (since it hopefully won't come apart) and then get into a 30 frame turbo.

Finally, if you plan on putting the car on a road course, a lot of other parts will have to be addressed to keep it reliable. Although we can easily make 400whp on the street, keeping 400 together on a road course or similarly demanding circumstance is different. 500 is even tougher.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Lex Did you maximize the flow potential of the GTX3071 already? Something else to keep in mind. The power you make is dependent on combustion and your combustion suffers when IDCs close in on 100% which you will get to no problem using the 3071. You will pick up a decent amount of power if you offset some of the OEM fueling

I wouldn't say maxed out but I have raced a couple 3076 ms3 with just about the same mods and in the higher rpm range they definitely start to pull.
Maybe @Boost_creep; could help us out on where I stood before I got rid of the turbo.

Originally Posted by Voltwings i have no earthly idea, but I agree with Lex, seems like a solid course of action.

I editited my post above, but I already sold the turbo to go toward the cost of the motor and now I have saved up for the turbo kit. So no matter what i need a turbo and I was seeing if i wanted to go a different route than I had already taken.

[Voltwings]

Ahh... may as well now i guess since you've already lost the money on that one, no sense in buying another one unless you get a good deal used.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Ahh... may as well now i guess since you've already lost the money on that one, no sense in buying another one unless you get a good deal used.

Haha yea. I guess I can go 5858 journal bearing and with the savings from that get a manifold and fifth port setup for just above the price of the gtx with a manifold lol.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Haha yea. I guess I can go 5858 journal bearing and with the savings from that get a manifold and fifth port setup for just above the price of the gtx with a manifold lol.

i may have a 5th port for you at the end of December, get a price on a new one and we'll talk if you're interested. Got a buyer for mine now but he's being flakey.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Voltwings i may have a 5th port for you at the end of December, get a price on a new one and we'll talk if you're interested. Got a buyer for mine now but he's being flakey.

Yea man let me know if the deal drops through.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by Voltwings i may have a 5th port for you at the end of December, get a price on a new one and we'll talk if you're interested. Got a buyer for mine now but he's being flakey.

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Yea man let me know if the deal drops through.

Let me know too if ^ doesn't get it...

[Voltwings]

i followed up with the buyer, and he plans to purchase it ... soon... lol. We'll see.

[Realgib3]

Yeah the 6262 is the best of both worlds turbo IMO, but if you want ridiculous spool and a tq spike at low rpm like a k04 then the 5858 is the one to go with. I would personally advise going with the 6262 or bigger, but hey, I love "Giant" turbos.

For reference though, my 6466 is very responsive on/off throttle and routinely hits 20psi <4000rpm and that's a 90+lb/min turbo.

And fwiw I've personally had both a GTX3076 and the 6466 on my car and I would literally shoot myself in the face before I would leave this turbo in favor of the gtx again.

[Boost_creep]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive I wouldn't say maxed out but I have raced a couple 3076 ms3 with just about the same mods and in the higher rpm range they definitely start to pull. Maybe @Boost_creep; could help us out on where I stood before I got rid of the turbo.

IIRC, you were approaching 110% IDC at around 25 psi, and making roughly 380whp. Aux fueling will definitely be needed with a turbo any larger than a 30 frame.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Yeah the 6262 is the best of both worlds turbo IMO, but if you want ridiculous spool and a tq spike at low rpm like a k04 then the 5858 is the one to go with. I would personally advise going with the 6262 or bigger, but hey, I love "Giant" turbos. For reference though, my 6466 is very responsive on/off throttle and routinely hits 20psi <4000rpm and that's a 90+lb/min turbo. And fwiw I've personally had both a GTX3076 and the 6466 on my car and I would literally shoot myself in the face before I would leave this turbo in favor of the gtx again.

Well there's another option lol. Would you recommend a ball bearing option or journal. And if I am understanding you correctly the 6262 will spool similarly to a 5858?

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Well there's another option lol. Would you recommend a ball bearing option or journal. And if I am understanding you correctly the 6262 will spool similarly to a 5858?

5858 will outspool the 6262 by ~200rpm and the 6262 will outspool the 6266 and 6466 by ~200 rpm.

Full spool won't really change between JB and DBB, but response is better with the DBB. I can't really quantify "response" though, you just kinda have to have driven them both to understand it, but it's basically how quick you can respool after lifting the throttle.

The only person I know with running a JB PTE turbo is @Etipp98 and I'm pretty sure he loves it. Made 533 at only 30psi and the spool average to 20psi was right around 4100rpm when we were tuning it this summer.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Well there's another option lol. Would you recommend a ball bearing option or journal. And if I am understanding you correctly the 6262 will spool similarly to a 5858?

the 6262 im tuning spools slower than my 35 did. The power of those turbos is amazing, but i wouldnt run one unless numbers is all you're going for.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Voltwings the 6262 im tuning spools slower than my 35 did. The power of those turbos is amazing, but i wouldnt run one unless numbers is all you're going for.

Well back to the 5858 haha. I guess I have decided that I would rather sacrifice top end to gain a bit quicker spool.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 5858 will outspool the 6262 by ~200rpm and the 6262 will outspool the 6266 and 6466 by ~200 rpm. Full spool won't really change between JB and DBB, but response is better with the DBB. I can't really quantify "response" though, you just kinda have to have driven them both to understand it, but it's basically how quick you can respool after lifting the throttle. The only person I know with running a JB PTE turbo is @Etipp98 and I'm pretty sure he loves it. Made 533 at only 30psi and the spool average to 20psi was right around 4100rpm when we were tuning it this summer.

I understand what you mean but in your opinion is that worth the extra few hundred bucks?

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Well back to the 5858 haha. I guess I have decided that I would rather sacrifice top end to gain a bit quicker spool. I understand what you mean but in your opinion is that worth the extra few hundred bucks?

Nah, I'd go 5858 JB .82 Vband in/out hotside and I think you'll be plenty happy with it.

Do you have a manifold picked out yet?

The really nice thing about going precision with the vband turbine housing is that a turbo switch from anything up to the 6466 will not require any modifications, just swap the turbo right over if you want something else down the road.

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Nah, I'd go 5858 JB .82 Vband in/out hotside and I think you'll be plenty happy with it. Do you have a manifold picked out yet? The really nice thing about going precision with the vband turbine housing is that a turbo switch from anything up to the 6466 will not require any modifications, just swap the turbo right over if you want something else down the road.

Nope thats on the list. Looking at the cpe mani at the moment.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Nope thats on the list. Looking at the cpe mani at the moment.

Nice, it's my personal preference and like I said, with the setup if you ever decide to go bigger, you have a lot of room to grow without having to mess with much, if anything else in your setup.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Lex Ball bearings are also not rebuildable and don't take as much abuse as journal bearings but respond faster. When choosing a turbo you really need to know what you're looking for. Do you want response or a lot of top end? How do you drive the car? A 2871 is great in the city but not a 1/4 mile king. A 35 frame is great for high speed pulls. For response, EFR is probably best of the bigger turbos but limited manifold options. Some disagree but if you want the car to be a daily, I would not want a 35 unless you have a lot of very long and straight roads in your area and like those pulls. In the canyons, city, where there are turns and lots of transients I would not want something larger than a 30 frame on this size motor.

i vote you go with EFR setup

[2012FailWheelDrive]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Nice, it's my personal preference and like I said, with the setup if you ever decide to go bigger, you have a lot of room to grow without having to mess with much, if anything else in your setup.

Sounds good. Also Ihave to search a bit more but where can I get everything for water/ oil lines? Is there a kit or will I piece it together?

Originally Posted by Matrix311 i vote you go with EFR setup

Send me a kit and I'll run it

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 i vote you go with EFR setup

That's an option, yeah, but it won't outperform the precision setup and it cost $1,000 more, and you have zero ability to upgrade down the road to something bigger...

Originally Posted by 2012FailWheelDrive Sounds good. Also Ihave to search a bit more but where can I get everything for water/ oil lines? Is there a kit or will I piece it together?

You can just piece it together, not difficult at all. I can send you all the specs on everything you need