Next upgrade: What kind of power will I get/fuel will I need

[Speedie6]

On my current build, I'm running a GT3071, CPE FMIC, 3" intake, Steedspeed stock location manifold, PT Performance HPFP, GHL Exhaust, etc..

I was in the middle of that build when I heard about the top mount twin scroll setups that DJ worked with Steedspeed on. I regretted not going that route, but, I didn't learn about it until I was halfway through the project as it was.

I suppose I could still do that, scrap what I got and start over. But, I wasn't planning on going that far. Basically, what I have in mind to do is as follows:

1. Upgrade the turbo to a Force Performance HTA 3076.
2. Upgrade the manifold to the JMS, with upgraded throttle body. I was initially planning on just going V1, but, considering changing plan.
3. Upgrade the intake to 3.5".
4. Possibly upgrade the intercooler. I've spent hours reading intercooler threads and it seems like using the Treadstone TR8 is the best solution available, but, still confused with a thousand and one different schools of thought.

So, what I'm trying to guestimate is, what kind of final HP can I get with this setup, and what do I need to do for fueling? Looks like I probably am going to run out of fuel, so, do I go 5th port, or go with the V2 of the manifold?

And I gotta decide about the intercooler. But reading more intercooler threads right now is about as appealing as cutting my dick off. But I guess I gotta, in order to figure out for sure where to go there.

Opinions please?

[cld12pk2go]

What are your power goals? Do you really need a new turbo/IM/TB to reach them?

It seems potentially expensive to buy them if you aren't looking for more than the ~420whp the GT3071 should support with the stock IM/TB...

As far as IC, I like my TR11:

How to install a Treadstone TR11 Intercooler

Fueling wise you have numerous options. You can do a meth kit (like me) and support upper 400whp, or go with the 5th port setup and support over 500whp.

[superskaterxes]

your CPE FMIC is extremely restrictive. like 12pk said, you need to establish some power goals first before you go any farther.

you will be fine with 5th port up to about 525-550whp but above that you will need PI.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes your CPE FMIC is extremely restrictive. like 12pk said, you need to establish some power goals first before you go any farther. you will be fine with 5th port up to about 525-550whp but above that you will need PI.

Okay, I've decided. Here is my power goal. 500 WHP. In the 5th port thread, I was told that going with the V1 of the IM will get me there. So, we got a target.

Now, as far as the FMIC. Superskaterxes says that the "CPE FMIC is extremely restrictive". I've read lots of FMIC threads, and indeed, most people say that the CPE product isn't for top end BT builds. But, I'm trying to understand why.

With a top-down design, rather than a side-to-side design, it should have very minimal pressure drop. Its core is 20" wide, by 6" high. The treadstone unit closest to it is this one:

TRV185 Series Intercooler 720HP- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

It is 18.5 x 6 x 3.5". And claims to be efficient to 720 HP. So, its a little thicker than the CPE, but a little shorter and same height. Now, with only 6" of cooling, that is on the small side. But, to my understanding, the cooling effect is mostly the first few inches, and that longer cores only have diminishing increase of cooling, while having increased pressure drop.

Therefore, by my very limited understanding, the CPE core should actually be pretty damn good.

Now, Treadstone makes another top-down design, with a 9" length. Here:

TRV1859 Series Intercooler 720HP- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

It also says 720 HP though.

Spearco makes a very similar unit as that longer one by Treadsone. It is also 9" tall, 18.5" wide. The Spearco is more expense. I hear they have better cores, but I don't know.

So, what, what I first want to do is, understand what specifically is wrong with the CPE which might help me to decide what to do.

If I decide to change the core, but stick with top/down, then maybe get either the Treadstone or Spearco 18.5 x 9". Of course I know I'll have to cut the crash bar. The overall height on that is 15.5". Can that be made to fit assuming you cut the crash bar?

You know, I wish someone would make an aftermarket aluminum crash bar. It should be doable to make one stronger than stock, lighter, but not block the radiator. I'm sure that would cost some bucks, but, a few people would buy it. Particularly if someone built a complete kit with a high end intercooler.

[doubleflusher]

If you want Treadstone TR1045 core, let me know.

[Speedie6]

As far as power goals, well, I don't know how to put a number on it. I can say that the car doesn't feel as fast to me as it should at the current power.

I've put a lot of money in this car. Too damn much. So, I want to try to get as much out of it as reasonably can. Given the equipment I've listed, (the HTA 3076, IM, TB, upgraded intercooler) and if we assume I give it enough fuel and a good tune what would be the approximate power I would be expecting?

And then what kind of fueling option would I need for that?

[Lex]

The stock injectors take you to 390-420whp if you use an E85 mix. Beyond that the turbo you have should flow to around 450-460whp with either a 5th port or a WMI kit to supplement fueling.

[doubleflusher]

If you're looking to make that kind of power, the TR1045 will be more than enough.

@superskaterxes; has the TR1035 on his MS6. It fits well and cools his charge quite well.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by doubleflusher If you're looking to make that kind of power, the TR1045 will be more than enough.

I may go that route. But, before I make my final decision, I wanting to understand more. What is specifically the issue with the CPE unit? As I noted, Treadstone makes a similar unit, same length, 1/2" thicker, 1.5" narrower, and theirs is supposed to be good for 720 HP. Now, theirs has 2.5" piping while the CPE has 2.25" piping.

[doubleflusher]

Two intercoolers of the same size may not be equal inside.

We need to know the flow numbers of the CP-E unit to make a true comparison.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by doubleflusher Two intercoolers of the same size may not be equal inside.

True enough. I don't know whose core CPE used.

Originally Posted by Lex CPE may have done some testing on their IC unit. Perhaps they have some pressure drop data as well as flow data.

CPE has on their site a white paper on the intercooler:

http://cp-e.com/imgs/SP6_Intercooler_Research.pdf

It primarily compares itself to the stock, which is to be expected of course. It has temperature charts showing how much better than stock. It has some energy efficiency calculations. And it has a chart of "boost pressure loss". I'm not really sure what all you would be looking for is there or not, but, it might be of interest.

Like I said, I'm primarily just trying to understand. I'm not trying to say that the CPE product is good, or bad. Or anything really. I'm just trying to understand. Since it is a supposed to be well known that the CPE isn't good for higher horsepower applications, I would figure that somewhere it has already been demonstrated to in fact be the case.

For example, superskaterxes said in this thread that "the CPE is very restrictive". Okay, it probably is. I just want to know where this has been demonstrated to be the case.

[Lex]

CPE may have done some testing on their IC unit. Perhaps they have some pressure drop data as well as flow data.

[Dr. Speed]

Originally Posted by Lex CPE may have done some testing on their IC unit. Perhaps they have some pressure drop data as well as flow data.

It's just hard to tell unless there is a comparison done by the same people under the same conditions with the same equipment... just look at the disparity between CP-E's and Corksport's TMIC info... There's a chance that it's all accurate, but it looks kind of fishy.

[Realgib3]

I wouldn't fight with yourself too much about the IC.

Sell the CP-e to recoup most or all the money you'll spend on the treadstone + piping.

Buy the TR1045 from 2xflush, and buy ~$150 worth of piping from CX racing. If you're getting the 3" TB option, then get 2.75" piping on the hot side and 3" on the cold side to match the TB. Don't even ask about lag because of big piping, it doesn't exist. I run 2.75" piping and a giant turbo and don't have spool/response issues.

More importantly... so are you going to also by a divided hotside for your 3076 when you upgrade it to HTA? If you're going through that much work/money, I would consider a 6262CEA with the T4 TS hotside, since you can get em brand new for ~$1350 and I think it's a perfect turbo for this car, would be a lot like Anthony's GTX3582 as far as power and would spool great. If you do stick with the HTA3076 which is also a great turbo, I'd suggest the 1.06 T3 divided hotside over the smaller .76 or .82 T3's. You'll still spool great and won't get choked up top.

As far as fueling, Lex was dead on. With a 6, you're looking at max of low 400's with no added fuel and probably max of 100 more horse with the Dual Injector PERM kit.

Lastly, do yourself a huge favor and move the battery and go with a 4" intake. You don't wanna add all these awesome flow mods...then choke it with a 3.5" intake, when the 4" is quite easy to do.

[Jh8909]

Also interested about the CPE because I have it now and am going BT in the future.

[doubleflusher]

The CP-E and Cobb FMIC kits are made to be used with the stock turbo.

Some may continue to use them when they go BT, but they quickly find out how restrictive they were, once they finally upgrade the core and/or piping.

[superskaterxes]

the CPE piping is only 2.25" and their core has a large pressure drop because its on the smaller side.

your best bet is with the 1035.

as far as fueling you can go either way with the 5th port or PI option but the 5th port is going to be cheaper.

you will also most likely need a new EM as the SS is very restrictive.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Sell the CP-e to recoup most or all the money you'll spend on the treadstone + piping.

That's probably the plan.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Buy the TR1045 from 2xflush, and buy ~$150 worth of piping from CX racing. If you're getting the 3" TB option, then get 2.75" piping on the hot side and 3" on the cold side to match the TB. Don't even ask about lag because of big piping, it doesn't exist. I run 2.75" piping and a giant turbo and don't have spool/response issues.

Hoo, boy. I've read a thousand different threads on this. From people like you that insist that the lag doesn't exist. The total pipe volume isn't really that big compared to the total air volume we are talking about. To others that say that it does make a big difference in lag. I don't fucking know. I do know that the turbo itself only has a 2" outlet. So, what I had in mind was 2.25 hot, 2.5" cold. But I could change my mind.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 More importantly... so are you going to also by a divided hotside for your 3076 when you upgrade it to HTA?

I wasn't planning on going twin scroll. To my understanding, which could be wrong, but that I understood that the only twin scroll manifold that had ever been made for our platform was the Steedspeed top mount, which would require another wastegate and more piping.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 As far as fueling, Lex was dead on. With a 6, you're looking at max of low 400's with no added fuel and probably max of 100 more horse with the Dual Injector PERM kit.

Noted.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Lastly, do yourself a huge favor and move the battery and go with a 4" intake. You don't wanna add all these awesome flow mods...then choke it with a 3.5" intake, when the 4" is quite easy to do.

Really??? I really thought 3.5 would be sufficient for the 500 HP range. And, to my understanding, you can start to have idling problems. I know that the honeycomb air straigtener helps, which is what my 3.5" has. But I was under the impression that even with a honeycomb, 4" is getting rather large for a decent idle.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes the CPE piping is only 2.25" and their core has a large pressure drop because its on the smaller side.

That is absolutely what I don't understand. To my understanding, in simplistic terms, the width/thickness primarily set the pressure drop. And in that measure, the CPE is HUGE!!! Its 20" wide by 3". The cores you and others have suggested are much smaller an the width dimension. Therefore, to my limited understanding, the CPE should actually have much less pressure drop than any others we have talked about. Unless the pressure drop is coming from the smaller 2.25" piping. Or the core is a bad design.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes as far as fueling you can go either way with the 5th port or PI option but the 5th port is going to be cheaper.

Got it. Going 5th port.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes you will also most likely need a new EM as the SS is very restrictive.

You're shitting me. At the time I bought it, I was told by everyone that its the greatest fucking thing since sliced bread. Now its shit? BTW, I've got it with the T3, single scroll design.

[doubleflusher]

The SS mani is not shit.

I made 517whp using it.

I could have made more power with a different manifold.

T3 TS is a waste. T3 doesn't need to be TS.

If you're going for huge power, which you're not, go with T4 TS.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by doubleflusher The SS mani is not shit. I made 517whp using it.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by doubleflusher If you're going for huge power, which you're not, go with T4 TS.

Funny, calling 500 WHP "not huge power". That was pretty gargantuant power not that long ago LOL.

At any rate, what are people now using for T4 TS manifolds? I guess I haven't kept up with the EMs. I know our platform has had a million and one manifold vendors come and go. (Medieval anyone???) I guess I am out of the loop as I didn't know there were significant new entries. I know there is the CPE, but that isn't TS I don't think. So, what is the current, top of the line T4 TS manifold? Not that I'm getting that, just curious about what I've been missing.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 My bad I completely misunderstood and thought you were SWITCHING to the SS Top mount haha. That's what 90% of my post involved lol. Carry on.

No. As you see, I already have the Steespeed T3 single-scroll bottom mount. I don't think I am going to switch, as Double said that he got 500 WHP with it. But, as I asked him, just hypothetically, if I were to switch EM, what is the top dog right now?

[Realgib3]

My bad I completely misunderstood and thought you were SWITCHING to the SS Top mount haha. That's what 90% of my post involved lol.

Carry on.

[Realgib3]

I LOVE my Cpe EM. Great price and durability, and if you check out Silverdemon's latest thread, it flows much much better that his SS did.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 I LOVE my Cpe EM. Great price and durability, and if you check out Silverdemon's latest thread, it flows much much better that his SS did.

I did a search for Silverdemon and a search for CPE exhaust manifold, and didn't find the thread. Can you post a link?

At any rate, I did find a few threads on some other manifolds, Full Race, and others. And, from what I gather. there isn't any other T4 TS available yet.

The CPE isn't a TS. The flanges they offer, that I see on the site, are the stock, and a couple of V-band options. Not sure how those V-band options compare in size to T3 and T4.

Although I probably won't, I suppose I could conceivably change to the CPE manifold, and put a V-band housing on the turbo. Sigh. Every time I turn around there are a thousand more possibilities...

Originally Posted by doubleflusher There is no top dog manifold either. You have to get a custom one made.

Okay. Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by doubleflusher What SS T3 manifold do you have, the tilted one? If it's not the tilted version, the HTA3076 will not fit, as the compressor cover will hit the block.

Thanks for the warning! But, yes, I have the tilted! So, good to go!

[doubleflusher]

There are many stock flange manifold producers for these cars, not T3.

SS is the only true bolt on T3 manifold available for these cars. Anything else is going to be custom.

There is no top dog manifold either. You have to get a custom one made.

What SS T3 manifold do you have, the tilted one? If it's not the tilted version, the HTA3076 will not fit, as the compressor cover will hit the block.

[magicka]

SilverDemon's thread is in the Dyno Sheets/Discussions forum. The title is something like "Curiosity got the best of me."

IIRC, the cp-e mani comes with either a stock flange, a Tial v-band or no flange.

[superskaterxes]

people have shown increases in power going from the SS back to stock manifold. its no fun making 500whp when you need to max the shit out of your setup just to get there because you have a few restrictive parts.

you have the original MS6 FMIC from CPE right? last i heard ~350whp was about the most anyone could make on it. your just making your turbo work harder then it needs to in order to overcome that pressure drop.

P.S. 20x3 is smaller then the CX racing core AFAIK lol

you need something close to 3.5x30 like on the TR1035

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by magicka SilverDemon's thread is in the Dyno Sheets/Discussions forum. The title is something like "Curiosity got the best of me."

I'll check it out. Thanks.

Originally Posted by magicka IIRC, the cp-e mani comes with either a stock flange, a Tial v-band or no flange.

It also lists a Precision V-band. Don't know the difference between Tial v-band vs. Precision v-band. And, yeah, I saw as an option no flange, but, I'm not sure tacking on your own makes sense.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes people have shown increases in power going from the SS back to stock manifold.

No shit??? Holy crap!

Originally Posted by superskaterxes you have the original MS6 FMIC from CPE right? last i heard ~350whp was about the most anyone could make on it.

Actually, I have the V2 version of the CPE FMIC. But, I think the only difference between the V1 and V2 is the BOV flange. And, so, I'm at the top end of what you say.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes your just making your turbo work harder then it needs to in order to overcome that pressure drop. P.S. 20x3 is smaller then the CX racing core AFAIK lol you need something close to 3.5x30 like on the TR1035

I'm not trying to fight or disagree, I'm sure you are right. Its just that I'm not understanding. As I said, to my understanding, the width and thickness dimensions is what primarily affects pressure drop. I could be wrong. But, that is what I understand. Therefore, in regards to pressure drop, 20 x 3 is bigger than than 10 x 3.5.

Futhermore,, again to my understanding, which of course could be wrong, but to my understanding added length increases cooling, but increases pressure drop. Therefore, strictly from a pressure drop standpoint, the CPE 6" short length is better than the 20+ inches long other cores.

So, from a pressure drop standpoint only, the CPE is bigger where it is better to be bigger, and smaller where it is better to be smaller. In short, top down design is supposed to be better than side-to-side from a pressure drop standpoint at least.

So, if the CPE does have a pressure drop, where is it coming from? The 2.25" piping?

Again, I know you know this shit better than me, and you must be right. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me. when you look at width and length. Simply going by total area of the intercooler doesn't tell the whole story.

[Realgib3]

I mean the kit that would be perfect for you is the whole damn Atmosphere kit from Cpe. Silverdemon seams to love it and it will meet all your requirements... just costs a pretty penny lol.

And seeing as flow increases going from the SS EM to the CPe EM are in the same realm as flow increases from stock IM to JMF IM, I would definitely consider it. That's just my $.02

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 I mean the kit that would be perfect for you is the whole damn Atmosphere kit from Cpe. Silverdemon seams to love it and it will meet all your requirements... just costs a pretty penny lol.

Well, no, I got a 6.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 And seeing as flow increases going from the SS EM to the CPe EM are in the same realm as flow increases from stock IM to JMF IM, I would definitely consider it. That's just my $.02

Well, maybe I need to consider it. But, I'd have to replumb the exhaust and wastegate. And, it sounds like my choice of turbo won't work with the CPE. Doubleflusher said it wouldn't fit it stock location, but, apparently will fit with my tilted SS EM. So, if I went with the CPE EM, I'd have to stick with the turbo I got, or make another choice.

[rfinkle2]

The size of the intercooler is important, but flow and pressure drop as well as efficiency are all factors to consider.

Buschur racing provides some good IC data, although on the Evo platform.

As the guys said above, I think the 1st gen CPE < Treadstone < Garrett.

FWIW, up until very recently both Precision Turbo and ETS used Garrett cores exclusively.

Consider this intercooler (a nice compact design with capable flow):
500HP Garrett Bar and Plate Intercooler w/Garrett Cast Endtanks : atpturbo.com

Originally Posted by Speedie6 Well, no, I got a 6. Well, maybe I need to consider it. But, I'd have to replumb the exhaust and wastegate. And, it sounds like my choice of turbo won't work with the CPE. Doubleflusher said it wouldn't fit it stock location, but, apparently will fit with my tilted SS EM. So, if I went with the CPE EM, I'd have to stick with the turbo I got, or make another choice.

The CP-E mani can be FP flanged for the HTA 3076 you mentioned above.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 The CP-E mani can be FP flanged for the HTA 3076 you mentioned above.

The flange isn't the issue. The issue is the HTA has a bigger compressor housing, and Double says it'll hit the block if the turbo is in the stock location.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 The flange isn't the issue. The issue is the HTA has a bigger compressor housing, and Double says it'll hit the block if the turbo is in the stock location.

He (the flusher) has more experience than I do with the different fits of turbos and manifolds, but I believe he is talking about the tilted vs. non tilted versions of the steedspeed manifold.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 He (the flusher) has more experience than I do with the different fits of turbos and manifolds, but I believe he is talking about the tilted vs. non tilted versions of the steedspeed manifold.

Exactly. If I understood correctly, the HTA will fit with the tilted (what I have) and not with non-tilted (stock location). Which would imply it wouldn't fit with any other stock location manifold either.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 Exactly. If I understood correctly, the HTA will fit with the tilted (what I have) and not with non-tilted (stock location). Which would imply it wouldn't fit with any other stock location manifold either.

Can't comment on the t3 version of the Cpe, but with the Vband flanges version... You can fit as big a turbo you want back there. I run a 6466 with the S cover... Its big, real big, and the only modification needed was cutting a couple threads off the end of one EM stud. I would assume the T3 version puts the turbo in the same spot back there but Idk.

[superskaterxes]

since you already have the turbo, you might be able to work out a deal with CPE to buy the kit minus the turbo. you would switch to the tial housing and use their mani/dp/EWG and be done with it.

i also just realized you have a 6 and the kit for the 6 isent out yet (because of my little snafu i havent been able to get there for them to mock up the DP on my car haha)

if you can wait another month or 2 it would be available.

send me a PM if your really serious about this.



and on the IC core, there is a HUGE difference between density of the different cores. density affects pressure drop the most. treadstone rates the 1035 at 2psi max drop at 1000CFM which is way more then 500whp.

CPE built that kit around the stock turbo and it works just fine for it but not for anything bigger. the cpe kit has a 6x3 cross sectional area which is 18 sq in. the TR1035 is 3.5x11 which is 38.5 sq in which is more then double the flow area. the fact that its longer also helps keep the air in side longer for better cooling.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes since you already have the turbo, you might be able to work out a deal with CPE to buy the kit minus the turbo.

Getting their manifold makes sense. I didn't know they were going to do a new MS6 DP! That's quite interesting. On the other hand, Realgib3 says that the CPE EM puts the turbo in about the same spot as the SS tilted does. Which would mean that my current custom fabbed DP might work as is with the CPE EM. What my current custom DP has is a 3" vband turbo connection plus a 38 mm vband wastegate. And I have a Tial wastegate.

Now I'm sure my current wastegate pipe won't mate to the CPE, but that might be the only thing I'd have to change with my current custom DP. I guess I'd have to do test fitments first.

But, bottom line it is interesting to hear that CPE is doing a new MS6 DP. Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by superskaterxes the fact that its longer also helps keep the air in side longer for better cooling.

Well, at least according to some reading I've done on intercoolers, longer does improve cooling. But, it is a case of diminishing returns. The first few inches do the most cooling, then the the amount of cooling done per inch drops dramatically, such that really long intercoolers only cool slightly more than shorter ones, at the cost of pressure drop.

If you look at Treadstone's intercooler models, you'll note that the ones they rate highest horsepower are wide but short.

Here, lets look at a couple of the Treadstone's. There is the TR11, which some have recommended:

TR11 Intercooler 560HP- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

Its huge, its 11" x 21". They rate it as efficient to 560 HP.

Now, here is another Treadstone, the TRV185:

TRV185 Series Intercooler 720HP- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

Its small. Its similar in size and shape as the CPE It is 18.5 x 6. It is half the area of the TR11. Yet it is listed as efficient to 720 HP.

That is why I'm considering with the TR185. Possibly the TR1859, but, I'd have to check fitment.

[doubleflusher]

The Compressor housing will hit the block on a non tilted T3 SS manifold, when using a 3076 or larger Garrett turbo.

I don't know about a T3 flanged CP-E manifold. I don't know if one exists yet.

T3 manifolds are rare on Mazdaspeeds, as most dudes go with the ATP setup, which typically has a smaller compressor housing. The flange is also in a different location, just barely.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by doubleflusher The Compressor housing will hit the block on a non tilted T3 SS manifold, when using a 3076 or larger Garrett turbo. I don't know about a T3 flanged CP-E manifold. I don't know if one exists yet. T3 manifolds are rare on Mazdaspeeds, as most dudes go with the ATP setup, which typically has a smaller compressor housing. The flange is also in a different location, just barely.

Yeah idk what I was smokin earlier. Cpe still doesn't offer a t3 flanged EM, only the Vband, stock and none.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Yeah idk what I was smokin earlier. Cpe still doesn't offer a t3 flanged EM, only the Vband, stock and none.

I thought you were meaning to use my turbo but change the hot side housing to vband. Or you could have meant to use the CPE but get it w/o flange and weld on T3 flange. I could, conceivably do either. But, if I was going to do either of those, I'd go with change the hot housing.

Not sure why they don't go ahead and just offer a T3 flange., or a T4. Or if those don't work well with it, then maybe they shouldn't offer a no flange option at all. It seems to me that they should just offer the flange if it will work okay, or not all all.

But, that's just my opinion...

[SilverDemon]

Honestly CP-E does not offer a T3 flange just for the fact that the Tial V-band hot side is just that much better. I mean the T3 has their place, but when you have the ability to run such a far superior set up, why not?