Pauter Titanium Connecting rods

[BobtailedSnail]

Hey guys I'm goin to start my Topmount HTA 3794R with a T4 A/R 1.00 divided hotside build next year with a new block and was searching for the best for the best rods and pistons as i am aspiring to the 600hp+ range for my MS6. As i was searching I found that Pauter makes titanium connecting rods...Introducing Pauter Titanium Rods

They claim that, "On average, the titanium rods weigh 33% less than the 4340 counterpart. In a 6-cylinder engine, that is equal to removing the weight of 2 steel rods from the complete rotating assembly. Typically, the big end of a 4340 rod weighs more than an entire titanium rod."

I thought that this was very interesting being that I am goin with such a huge turbo that I am trying to take advantage of every technology i can (Twinscroll, HTA, anything thats lighter and more efficient). I was researching Titanium rods and they are quite abit more expensive than steel rods but it offers crisper throttle due to them being lighter and thus reducing lag time IMO any thoughts on these rods?

[NJSPEED3]

Im pretty sure no one has tried them. So it would be interesting to see what they can do compared to steel, if you're willing to make the jump.

Imo I would save the money on the rods and just use a smaller turbo like the hta35r t3 .82 or even the .63 which has pretty proven itself to reach 600 whp. I think its cheaper and much simpler with more usable power too. We cant really stretch our rpms further than maybe 7500, and that's really what you need for a monster size turbo. To make it simple what Im saying is you don't want to make peak power for just 1000rpm, you want it from at least 4k to red line for the car to feel fun on the street and still be a track and dyno beast. Check out anthony's ms6 for isntance or even Andrew's.@superskaterxes @doubleflusher

GL and if u do decide to go with the exotic build it will be fun to watch from here.

signing off :phillyb:

[06Speed6]

Titanium rods work harden and become brittle. They are designed for engines that are reved north of 13k rpm and they are designed to be replaced every couple races.

Carrillo pro-h rods with carrillo rod bolts are the best rods made for our engine. They are considered to be indestructible because they are rated at 2500-3000hp.

[Chimmike]

I understand the lightness idea, but if you're willing to spend the money, look into getting the crank knife-edged and blueprinted. That'll shave some weight from the crank, and balance all the rotating assembly before install into the block and it'll rev better than stock, by a mile. Then you won't need to bother with the titanium rods.

I also agree with @NJSPEED3 on going with a smaller turbo. a 3794 is just massive and you really may be disappointed with the lag associated with a turbo that big on 2.3L displacement, if you're not revving to 9krpm.

[doubleflusher]

HTA3794?

Are you nuts?

HTA3586 will easily support 600 whp, and remain driveable.

[superskaterxes]

who needs driveable?

[BobtailedSnail]

If worse comes to worse i might just drop the DISI and go with a MZR head and port injection...then i could raise rpm and get Cosworth goodies but i understand the drivability arguement. i just want a drag monster to be honest

[NJSPEED3]

well if you wana cheat then, the mzr head is the way to go.

[BobtailedSnail]

Hey i know it's cheating that why i said worse comes to worse. I really would prefer to keep the disi but is there any way to raise the RPM onn our engines?

[Tokay444]

Mine raises whenever I press the gas pedal.

[MSFer87]

@supertech valve train and sorry buddy after market isn't advanced enough yet for cams if you want to rev it to 10k.

[Lex]

I would first invest in a way to supply 600whp worth of fuel. Manifold with extra injectors, fuel rail, controller.

Carrillo rods will do the job, get quality fasteners and gaskets and a great machinist.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Its a lot of money you look at to spend talk about $16,000 plus. Then you need little shit with add up. I'm up near 15k right now that what I just add up to night.
If you have the a lot of money to spend on a motor build do a lot of research first before going ahead with it watch and learn as I will call it.

[JMEngineer]

The LS7 has titanium rods

[BobtailedSnail]

Yeah i've checked out the evo forums about the Ti rods and the arguements there. Also I'm waiting on SilverDemon as he has a guy working on a IM for us with an option of port injection for whatever you want so that could be a possibility as well for extra fueling. The Ti rods were more or less like a rotational mass weight savings to try to get as much HP out of the engine as i can. These engines are a peice of work haha.

Originally Posted by jdmoptiontune @supertech valve train and sorry buddy after market isn't advanced enough yet for cams if you want to rev it to 10k.

yeah at least 8-9k would be great

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Its a lot of money you look at to spend talk about $16,000 plus. Then you need little shit with add up. I'm up near 15k right now that what I just add up to night. If you have the a lot of money to spend on a motor build do a lot of research first before going ahead with it watch and learn as I will call it.

I've been watching your build and I am very impressed with your attention to detail and commitment to doing it right the first time. +1 for that man

[h.h.sk1nny]

Originally Posted by BobtailedSnail yeah at least 8-9k would be great

I'm pretty sure mazdagaragepat runs his motor to 8.5k. IIRC he's just afraid to push it further because he doesn't think he has enough fuel

[JMEngineer]

For rotational weight reduction a lightweight flywheel is the easiest and cheapest thing to do. Titanium rods are more beneficial for reducing engine forces at high revs. High end race bikes that use titanium rods commonly have to add mass to the crank or flywheel to run properly - so the total mass of the engine isn't much different but more of the mass is closer to the CG for improved handling.



Titanium rods improve handling

[BobtailedSnail]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer For rotational weight reduction a lightweight flywheel is the easiest and cheapest thing to do. Titanium rods are more beneficial for reducing engine forces at high revs. High end race bikes that use titanium rods commonly have to add mass to the crank or flywheel to run properly - so the total mass of the engine isn't much different but more of the mass is closer to the CG for improved handling. Titanium rods improve handling

This is true for the bikes when cornering. Just trying to seek out every possibility that there is out there no matter it's cost or virtual impracticality. I'm gonna be emailing Dee Karagiannis about what all he did with his 1200 rwhp "MS3" as he has a DISI block and head in the working for high. Maybe I can pick his brain for what he plans to do with fueling more extensively. The responses are very much appreciated.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by BobtailedSnail This is true for the bikes when cornering. Just trying to seek out every possibility that there is out there no matter it's cost or virtual impracticality. I'm gonna be emailing Dee Karagiannis about what all he did with his 1200 rwhp "MS3" as he has a DISI block and head in the working for high. Maybe I can pick his brain for what he plans to do with fueling more extensively. The responses are very much appreciated.

I don't think that Dee is really using the DISI setup...it's a port injection engine now.

According to the man himself:

"No I am not using the direct injection system. I am using a motec m800 with 12 160lb injectors."

"It is making about 1275 to the tires. And we spin it to about 10500rpm."

" I have upgraded springs/retainers/vavles/cams that are designed for that RPM."

- Dee Karagiannis - Mazdaspeed 3 on display at the PRI Show

[BobtailedSnail]

Originally Posted by Vansquish I don't think that Dee is really using the DISI setup...it's a port injection engine now. According to the man himself: "No I am not using the direct injection system. I am using a motec m800 with 12 160lb injectors." "It is making about 1275 to the tires. And we spin it to about 10500rpm." " I have upgraded springs/retainers/vavles/cams that are designed for that RPM." - Dee Karagiannis - Mazdaspeed 3 on display at the PRI Show

I know that he is is running the MZR head but i checked out his thread and he s aid that they were trying to get something together for the full DISI setup as well.

[kmac]

All I know is I love dudes

[Tokay444]

Keep in mind titanium has a lot of elasticity.
At the piston speeds you'll have at your target rpm, with our rediculous stroke you're gonna effectively be getting a longer rod with every stroke.
Granted, it will rebound back to length every time.
Oh and I bang dudes too.

[BobtailedSnail]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Keep in mind titanium has a lot of elasticity. At the piston speeds you'll have at your target rpm, with our rediculous stroke you're gonna effectively be getting a longer rod with every stroke. Granted, it will rebound back to length every time. Oh and I bang dudes too.

This is true 94mm stroke is very long. I was reading that shorter strokes are ideal for higher RPM engines.

[Tokay444]

Extremely.
Over square for the win.
Slower you can have you pistons moving at a given rpm, the more reliably you're going to maintain that rpm. Higher piston speeds, higher momentum and centripetal forces trying to pull things appart.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Extremely. Over square for the win. Slower you can have you pistons moving at a given rpm, the more reliably you're going to maintain that rpm. Higher piston speeds, higher momentum and centripetal forces trying to pull things appart.

thank you for using the correct term.

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Keep the 3794 idea. Swap to a regular PI head. Do a built top end. Use carillo H beam rods. Make 800+whp. Use your awesome ms6 awd to run 9's. Rub it in our faces.

That is all.

[BobtailedSnail]

Originally Posted by MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex Keep the 3794 idea. Swap to a regular PI head. Do a built top end. Use carillo H beam rods. Make 800+whp. Use your awesome ms6 awd to run 9's. Rub it in our faces. That is all.

HAHA thanks for the encouragement lol. Sort of on the same lines as a M3 using a 335 head and intake cuz they flow more doesn't stop it from being a M3 lol...sort of

[bmylez]

Nvm. Had brain fart.

[JMEngineer]

I've said it before but I'll say it again...

If I were going for crazy power on this motor I would destroke it to 2.0L and rev it to hell.
Our bore/stroke ratio is well below ideal

[bmylez]

Yeah, but then you have to deal with the head. Supertech makes valvespring/retainer kits for our cars...but is the CDFP going to keep up? Just seems like a lot of work when you could just build a regular Mazda 2.0 block/head and be done with it.

[Tokay444]

It's not that cdfp keeping up with springs and retainers we're worried about.
The stock vvt, which is already weak, can handle the added spring tension.

[JMEngineer]

If you're already building the engine it's easy to put in the DCR vvt actuator. A vvt delete should also be pretty easy.

[zumin]

If your building a high reving engine, deleting the vvt would be ideal IMO. Vvt broadens the power band. If you have can ground purely for higher rpm power then vvt would be useless.

Same way with the SR20. Get cams, delete vvt. Rev to 9000rpm on stock bottom end and make 400-500whp with a good turbo.

If your goin to build a high reving that makes most power over 5000rpm then every piece and aspect of the build needs to be designed around that power band.

And screw peak hp, power under the curve wins races.


I do like the 2.0 idea. I've recently thrown a sr20 in my 240. That damn engine revs to the moon. It scares me a little taking it to 8k some times but the engine loves it. If only I had a turbo that could flow worth a damn over 6500 now :/

I've also heard from my Evo friends that they tend to get quicker spooling with the 2.0 because it can rev higher, faster. Apparently the stroked engine is as high rpm capable as the 2.0

[Tomas]

In before cam through hood and subsequent comment "that will buff out"

[BobtailedSnail]

This is very interesting since the Mazda L-series engine do share alot of the same bore/stroke combinations...

Wikipedia (Links)

Mazda_L_engine

The only thing would be to make sure the parts like cranks and heads fit. what is the different about the short block of the NA MZR and the DISI?

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by BobtailedSnail what is the different about the short block of the NA MZR and the DISI?

The main difference is the forged internals.

I think someone said the crank bearings are a different size on the 2.0... I'll post a link if I can find where that was.

[BobtailedSnail]

that would be awesome...a destroked 2.3 then bored over to get some of that displacement back

[jracer]

It's proven with this motor 500-600 hp can be made .. You really need more ??
All this talk of building a Mzr pi motor is silly .. Have fun interfacing the electronics and trans.
That is unless you have some deep ass pockets..

[BobtailedSnail]

Found this on grassrootsmotorsports.com forum

"offset grind the rod journals by .020 then get .020 undersize bearings ( yes thicker bearings are called undersized), keep rods, keep crank, keep pistons but mill the head and/or deck surface enough to maintain ratio. cheap way to change stroke".

Obvisously the .020 is a variable

[BobtailedSnail]

Someone also said something about moving the crankpin further/away from the crank's centerline will stroke/destroke an engine. if i could accomplish any of this i would adjust bore and piston compression and deck height to bring it back to stock.