Pay to play? How much to play at 400whp??

[lsorr1975]

Hey guys. I have been thinking about my long term goals with my 08 Speed3. I would like to build between 380 and 400whp(400 preferred) and still be reliable. What does it take and is it possible? I know you can build 400whp but will it still be a good driver? What type of internals would I need and what mods? Rough estimate on build cost?

[turd burglar]

alot

[mazdaspeed joel]

What mods do you have now?

Wouldn't exactly call 400whp reliable

[lsorr1975]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed joel What mods do you have now? Wouldn't exactly call 400whp reliable

Right now I have a cp-e intake, turbo inlet, race pipe, hks exhaust, 1 step colder plugs and a cobb tune. Sitting at 294whp to the wheels riight now. I haven't done an intercooler or dp because I am still deceiding if I want a bigger turbo. If I do get a bigger turbo do I need internals with it? Would 350whp be a better number for a reliable car? Just trying to get realistic options here.

[HLR Element]

why would you want 400hp to the front wheels? to rear wheels that's already a good amount...

[felt]

Originally Posted by HLR Element why would you want 400hp to the front wheels? to rear wheels that's already a good amount...

Dude...Because he wants it, don't answer a question with a question man, if cagey, cruzito, conso and all the other big turbo guys did it, it was because they wanted to, and they're damn happy with the results.

[mituc]

You can get to 400WHP or more but you're going to need these (at least):
- forged rods and pistons;
- a larger turbo, something from the same class as a gt35 to be safe (gt3071 is going to get you near 350-370whp on this engine AFAIK);
- definitely a FMIC;
- possibly a more efficient radiator;
- a complete set of engine mounts;
- strong arms, because you're going to fight your wheel even in 5th or 6th (go bodybuilding TODAY ! );
- possibly another car as a DD because this is going to be a bitch to drive in heavy traffic (it will be noisy because of the exhaust and stiffer engine mounts, it will rattle on a wide RPM range, it will tear your brains apart when the air conditioning kicks in, it will be lazy at low rpm, and so on).

You can avoid rebuilding the engine with forged parts by aiming lower, like 330-350whp and limiting the boost/load/torque below 3500rpm to values closer to stock (say, 16-17PSI/300lbft to be safe).
However, you're still going to need to upgrade your turbo (gt28 or gt30 for 350whp) and get a FMIC. If you want to keep things simple you can run with a TMIC if you aim even lower, 300-330whp, and use a reworked k04 or a gt28.

Probably the intake and exhaust you have now will do for both situations, but at least for the first two situations you will need a downpipe.

Also, don't forget that this is still a FWD car. Even if you'll get a good suspension and set it right, tuning a FWD to deliver more than 350 pounds of torque to the wheels will destroy the balance of the car, may limit its cornering capabilities because of the violent traction and sharp/violent throttle response, and you will be able to use that power only at high speeds (you will spin the wheel in 3rd and even 4th and frankly I don't find fun to have a scary car - only if it's scary for the others ).

[felt]

Originally Posted by mituc You can get to 400WHP or more but you're going to need these (at least): - forged rods and pistons; - a larger turbo, something from the same class as a gt35 to be safe (gt3071 is going to get you near 350-370whp on this engine AFAIK); - definitely a FMIC; - possibly a more efficient radiator; - a complete set of engine mounts; - strong arms, because you're going to fight your wheel even in 5th or 6th (go bodybuilding TODAY ! ); - possibly another car as a DD because this is going to be a bitch to drive in heavy traffic (it will be noisy because of the exhaust and stiffer engine mounts, it will rattle on a wide RPM range, it will tear your brains apart when the air conditioning kicks in, it will be lazy at low rpm, and so on). You can avoid rebuilding the engine with forged parts by aiming lower, like 330-350whp and limiting the boost/load/torque below 3500rpm to values closer to stock (say, 16-17PSI/300lbft to be safe). However, you're still going to need to upgrade your turbo (gt28 or gt30 for 350whp) and get a FMIC. If you want to keep things simple you can run with a TMIC if you aim even lower, 300-330whp, and use a reworked k04 or a gt28. Probably the intake and exhaust you have now will do for both situations, but at least for the first two situations you will need a downpipe. Also, don't forget that this is still a FWD car. Even if you'll get a good suspension and set it right, tuning a FWD to deliver more than 350 pounds of torque to the wheels will destroy the balance of the car, may limit its cornering capabilities because of the violent traction and sharp/violent throttle response, and you will be able to use that power only at high speeds (you will spin the wheel in 3rd and even 4th and frankly I don't find fun to have a scary car - only if it's scary for the others ).

You forgot the 40psi he will need to boost at to make 400hp


I kid. I kid.

[zx2man]

Originally Posted by lsorr1975 Right now I have a cp-e intake, turbo inlet, race pipe, hks exhaust, 1 step colder plugs and a cobb tune. Sitting at 294whp to the wheels riight now. I haven't done an intercooler or dp because I am still deceiding if I want a bigger turbo. If I do get a bigger turbo do I need internals with it? Would 350whp be a better number for a reliable car? Just trying to get realistic options here.

294 whp without a downpipe or a aftermarket intercooler..impressive..what kind of dyno?

Theres few people running 3076 turbos making 350+ whp on stock internals doing fine..I havnt seen anyone running 400+whp on stock internals....Its really hard to say with this car...I would suggest upgrading the internals to be on the safe side and you have money to spend. Rods-pistons-bearings-head gasket-apr headbolts-your looking around 17-1800 bucks....are you gonna do the labor yourself? or have a shop do it? so you have to factor that in..which can be couple grand easily...then theres the turbo selection.

3071-3076 atp turbos are bolt on units that can give you 350 whp+...thier fairly expensive 15-1800 dollar range depending where you buy it. Alot of people like T3/4 turbos cause theres alot of options with them and you have the ability to run bigger exhaust housings that the atp gt series. The word on the "streets" is using a .82 a/r or at the very least .63 a/r for this car...then its time for a reliable turbo manifold.....alot of people use ProtegeGarage or DNP...I myself would look at Xtremeboost or Pt-performance...possibly SteedSpeed once legit numbers come out..depending on which one you buy you could spend 450-900 bucks for turbo mani.

Just depends on how far you wanna go..how much money you wanna spend..and how much power you want..and how simple you want it. Im no expert..shit when it comes to big turbo, theres some guys in here you really wanna pay attention too..sometimes I wish they would respond to my turbo upgrade threads more *cough*...but anyways...thats atleast a baseline from my tiny bit of knowledge. Good luck and hope you get something figured out.

[holeinmypocket]

Originally Posted by felt You forgot the 40psi he will need to boost at to make 400hp I kid. I kid.

40 psi on the stock turbo i think is what he meant

[lsorr1975]

Originally Posted by mituc You can get to 400WHP or more but you're going to need these (at least): - forged rods and pistons; - a larger turbo, something from the same class as a gt35 to be safe (gt3071 is going to get you near 350-370whp on this engine AFAIK); - definitely a FMIC; - possibly a more efficient radiator; - a complete set of engine mounts; - strong arms, because you're going to fight your wheel even in 5th or 6th (go bodybuilding TODAY ! ); - possibly another car as a DD because this is going to be a bitch to drive in heavy traffic (it will be noisy because of the exhaust and stiffer engine mounts, it will rattle on a wide RPM range, it will tear your brains apart when the air conditioning kicks in, it will be lazy at low rpm, and so on). You can avoid rebuilding the engine with forged parts by aiming lower, like 330-350whp and limiting the boost/load/torque below 3500rpm to values closer to stock (say, 16-17PSI/300lbft to be safe). However, you're still going to need to upgrade your turbo (gt28 or gt30 for 350whp) and get a FMIC. If you want to keep things simple you can run with a TMIC if you aim even lower, 300-330whp, and use a reworked k04 or a gt28. Probably the intake and exhaust you have now will do for both situations, but at least for the first two situations you will need a downpipe. Also, don't forget that this is still a FWD car. Even if you'll get a good suspension and set it right, tuning a FWD to deliver more than 350 pounds of torque to the wheels will destroy the balance of the car, may limit its cornering capabilities because of the violent traction and sharp/violent throttle response, and you will be able to use that power only at high speeds (you will spin the wheel in 3rd and even 4th and frankly I don't find fun to have a scary car - only if it's scary for the others ).

WOW. Very good info, thank you. I didn't even think of how it would drive with that type of power. I think I may look into another platform for this kind of build. I will keep the speed as my daily driver but I may get a RWD or AWD car for my speed demon.

[QUOTE=zx2man;545250]294 whp without a downpipe or a aftermarket intercooler..impressive..what kind of dyno?

Not sure what dyno it was. I got it tuned at Big Valley Performance in Orlando. The dyno they had was above ground, kinda cool. I think it was a dynojet though.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by zx2man 294 whp without a downpipe or a aftermarket intercooler..impressive..what kind of dyno?

It is possible but it's at the limit of blowing up. With good fuel and no abuse it will work like this for ever with 0 problems.
But any slight abuse of this car may end up with fried pistons or cracked sparks because of the extreme heat, or with bent/broken rods because of the very high boost with poorly cooler air at mid rpm.

[integrrac]

if you are worried about cost effective reliable HP get a sr20det or a dsm for a project car, daily drive the MS3. [/story]

[8.5MS3]

GT3076, CP-E Catless DP, COBB CatBack Exhaust, PG EWG Manifold with Tial 38mm EWG, CP-E 4" Inlet, COBB SRI with AimsOil Filter, HKS BPV, COBB FMIC, PTP HPFP, ITV22 sparkplugs, Devils Own Stage 2 Meth running DO5 with 70/30 mix, COBB AcessPort with AKUMA Motorsports Custom Tune, CP-E Rear Motor Mount 75 duro, StreetUnit Side Motor Mounts, COBB Rear Sway Bar, COBB shifter Weight, Bilstein Shocks with COBB springs, Defi Blue racer Boost gauge, AEM WideBand, Aeroforce Scan Gauge, CP-E Triple Gauge Pod, 5% tint all around. Dynoed 383 whp 360 wtq @ 20psi

^^^more than that guy

another couple grand to build the motor so its "somewhat" reliable, SB instead of AP

[Chimmike]

IMO 400whp is possible on stock rods because a turbo with that flow capability won't make enough boost down low to risk bending 'em like the stock K04 will.

[holeinmypocket]

Originally Posted by chimmike IMO 400whp is possible on stock rods because a turbo with that flow capability won't make enough boost down low to risk bending 'em like the stock K04 will.

i wouldn't saying reliably at 400 hp but i think that 300 - 380 is safe with meth a BT and and tune

[zx2man]

Originally Posted by chimmike IMO 400whp is possible on stock rods because a turbo with that flow capability won't make enough boost down low to risk bending 'em like the stock K04 will.

Originally Posted by holeinmypocket i wouldn't saying reliably at 400 hp but i think that 300 - 380 is safe with meth a BT and and tune

Well gentleman time will tell I suppose...I myself would like to "believe" so.

I think as some of the stock internals BT guys put more miles on thier cars, then that will be the proof.

One thing I have noticed is alot of ms3 owners dont put to many miles on thier cars.

I hope to see many BT stock internals guy running 330-380 whp saying yep still running strong after 50-75,000 miles.

[holeinmypocket]

Originally Posted by zx2man Well gentleman time will tell I suppose...I myself would like to "believe" so. I think as some of the stock internals BT guys put more miles on thier cars, then that will be the proof. One thing I have noticed is alot of ms3 owners dont put to many miles on thier cars. I hope to see many BT stock internals guy running 330-380 whp saying yep still running strong after 50-75,000 miles.

i wish....i mean i hope lol

[mazdamx3freak]

Not sure what dyno it was. I got it tuned at Big Valley Performance in Orlando. The dyno they had was above ground, kinda cool. I think it was a dynojet though.[/QUOTE]

so this place protunes on AP? I might need to check it out. I live in the tampa area and cant seem t find any "good" shops that will tune the AP on our cars.

[BrianZX10R]

Originally Posted by HLR Element why would you want 400hp to the front wheels? to rear wheels that's already a good amount...

Because 383 whp to the front wheels is not enough

[madvillain]

Originally Posted by chimmike IMO 400whp is possible on stock rods because a turbo with that flow capability won't make enough boost down low to risk bending 'em like the stock K04 will.

It's my goal to prove this statement correct. I'm almost there..

Originally Posted by BrianGT3076 Because 383 whp to the front wheels is not enough

[NJSPEED3]

I briefly read over all the posts and didnt see anyone mention build cost.


A decent build with minimal head work will run you around $5k
A complete turbo kit will run you another $4k if you get everything new this includes,fmic, 4" inlet, intake big maf,turbo(3071,3076,35r) headers,ewg, dp, oil lines, coolant lines.
New clutch and flywheel $800
All motor mounts $450
meth kit $400
tuning solution $1400 SB+full control flashes a must to get 400whp / pro dyno tune ($250+/-)
Hpfp $667 (cpe most reliable on the market)
cbe $600

You can add alot more but this would be the bare minimum needed for 400whp

Grand total Fail is $13317.00

Go see Mark At StreetUnit.com he'll hook you up!!

[turd burglar]

it'll also cost you a new tranny. sorry cagey!

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 I briefly read over all the posts and didnt see anyone mention build cost. A decent build with minimal head work will run you around $5k A complete turbo kit will run you another $4k if you get everything new this includes,fmic, 4" inlet, intake big maf,turbo(3071,3076,35r) headers,ewg, dp, oil lines, coolant lines. New clutch and flywheel $800 All motor mounts $450 meth kit $400 tuning solution $1400 SB+full control flashes a must to get 400whp / pro dyno tune ($250+/-) Hpfp $667 (cpe most reliable on the market) cbe $600 You can add alot more but this would be the bare minimum needed for 400whp Grand total Fail is $13317.00 Go see Mark At StreetUnit.com he'll hook you up!!

Oooooooorrrr just get one of these

[Waltzy]

as everyone else has already said.......Alot with this car

[Sacrilicious]

the first thing you need to do is take the whole "reliable" idea out of your head. in the end, we're still driving a 4 banger, and 400whp from 4 cylinders of 1st gen DISI is NOT a reliable thing to do.

you obviously have shown that you need a reasonable DD, so quit barkin up the MS3 tree and find a platform that's been properly established and known to reliably make well over 400whp.

[mituc]

Well, a reliable 400WHP DD is either a car that has about this power stock, or one that can be modded to get there with about the same mods you need to get a MS3 to 290-300WHP (evo X FQ400, Ford Focus RS, Impreza STI, and the list can continue).

Anything else will have a more or less disturbing impact on reliability and ride comfort. So if you want 400WHP you need to get your mind straight and figure out exactly what you want: a DD or a rally car. Because the 400WHP MS3 will be a lot closer to a rally car (maintenance and comfort wise).

[HLR Element]

Originally Posted by BrianGT3076 Because 383 whp to the front wheels is not enough

lol, your car is insane and i hope to see it soon. But i guess for me i wouldn't want so much, i spin the front wheels enough as it is lol, didn't mean for my other post to sound as a statement of don't do it. If anything, it's just fun modding a car and if you can live with this car making that power with all those mods, do it.

[wette460]

It's sad but true. 400whp on this car and having it as a "reliable daily driver" is not practical unless you have ALOT of cash to throw around. I'm at 330whp and this is my daily driver and I can't see doing much more to it without compromising the quality of the ride. I still have the cat on b/c I dont want to go deaf at stoplights, lol.