For those with built engines would you build it again?

[Matrix311]

So i'm the fence about building my engine up. Right now as you can see in my signature I'm big turbo with gtx3071r pushing 400whp /410lb - ft.

For those with built engines was it worth it? What was your build cost from a good engine not a rebuild because you blew up. I'm at 90k on my engine right now. Would rebuilding it be wise and would it be like starting over with a new engine or is building the engine bad with the high mileage? I don't race or do autocross I just drive to enjoy my car. I think building it would be fun and I have no plans to sell it as its paid off in a few months.

Can anyone help persuade me to stay stock block or to build it up. If I build it how much more hp can I pull from the gtx3071r at max boost with our engine? 500whp give or take?

Just can't decide what to do so please provide some input.

Eric

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[sidekick]

Well, you wouldn't have to wonder if you were going to blow up every time you went WOT anymore...

[SpeedRebirth]

Peace of mind is worth sooo much! So if the funds are there, DO IT!

500 whp might be pushing that turbo a bit far ? But 450whp should not be a problem. There's a bnrs3 with built engine who pushes ~420whp

[dot584]

To me the biggest advantage is being able to work the motor harder in more of the rpm range. And it sort of depends on your blocks condition. You would have to have a mechanic look at it or someone who could measure cylinder walls and they could tell you if your motor was usable which it probably is. Yes it would be like a new motor if fully rebuilt. Oh and to get 450 you would need some kind of aux fueling. I want to build so bad haha

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[Matrix311]

Thanks for the replies. Regarding aux fueling i'm already using meth and have been for years. In the summer times here in AZ I usually pop a gallon or two of E85 in because of the 110+ temps to keep the knock down. A friend mentioned chimchim did drop in pistons/rods with the motor still installed. How does his route compare to pulling the engine and getting it machined etc? I'm assuming his is more of a budget build, is it just as strong?

[Lex]

Most people that build have more issues and downtime after the build. I do not consider a build a reliability modification unless your car is raced or purpose built and you are addressing a known failure.

In your position I would not build for peace of mind. You already have that given the engine lasted 90k in the way you use the car. I would only build if you enjoy the process and to learn and make sure you have a dd for the downtime.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Lex Most people that build have more issues and downtime after the build. I do not consider a build a reliability modification unless your car is raced or purpose built and you are addressing a known failure. In your position I would not build for peace of mind. You already have that given the engine lasted 90k in the way you use the car. I would only build if you enjoy the process and to learn and make sure you have a dd for the downtime.

Thanks man and good advice. Any specific reason why people tend to have issues after a build? What kind of problems normally arise? I do have a 2nd vehicle for a dd and luckily I work from home full time so a vehicle is not necessary to have. Only place I drive on a daily basis is the gym and back and to get food.

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[Lex]

You are introducing a lot of areas for failure - anything from machining to assembly, leaks, noises, matching parts etc. etc. Every little detail is important.

For best reliability on a built I would do what Dano did and get a new OEM block, replace rods, seal it back up.

[PPD369Speed3]

Originally Posted by SpeedRebirth Peace of mind is worth sooo much! So if the funds are there, DO IT! 500 whp might be pushing that turbo a bit far ? But 450whp should not be a problem. There's a bnrs3 with built engine who pushes ~420whp

I'm pretty sure @atvfreek; is around 420/400 with a bnr s3 stock block.

probably tappin dat ass

[manila]

Originally Posted by PPD369Speed3 I'm pretty sure @atvfreek; is around 420/400 with a bnr s3 stock block. probably tappin dat ass

GTX2867

[PPD369Speed3]

Originally Posted by manilaMS12 GTX2867

I'm 95% he used to have a bnr.

probably tappin dat ass

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by PPD369Speed3 I'm pretty sure @atvfreek; is around 420/400 with a bnr s3 stock block. probably tappin dat ass

I'm already chillen at 410whp/409lb-ft on my stock block with my gtx3071r and stock clutch and everything has been holding fine for the past 8 months.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by PPD369Speed3 I'm 95% he used to have a bnr. probably tappin dat ass

You are 100% correct I had a BNR. On a gtx now.

The best and least problematic build is what lex mentioned and that is start with a fresh block. The manufacturer does not machine anything and that is for a reason. I'm doing a motor for somebody right now and every single spec is spot on. From the wiseco pistons to the ring gaps.

[Voltwings]

The only thing i regret about my build is my clutch, it drives great and holds the power but my god is it a noisy son of a bitch -_-. My build took about a week and a half, cant say how long the guy worked on it, but thats how long i was without it. I got the internals from edge on black friday for about $1200, thats pistons, rods, bearings studs and certain gaskets. my clutch was $1000, and labor was right about $2500, so said and done i spent just under $5k and i would say its worth it. Now, i got my build done at 55k miles because i knew i was going to push the car further than the "safe" 400 whp zone, so for me it was ease of mind (and wallet since a new block is nowhere near cheap). I'd say do it, or at least start setting money aside if yours decides to let go (knock on wood*)

[Mchart]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 So i'm the fence about building my engine up. Right now as you can see in my signature I'm big turbo with gtx3071r pushing 400whp /410lb - ft. For those with built engines was it worth it? What was your build cost from a good engine not a rebuild because you blew up. I'm at 90k on my engine right now. Would rebuilding it be wise and would it be like starting over with a new engine or is building the engine bad with the high mileage? I don't race or do autocross I just drive to enjoy my car. I think building it would be fun and I have no plans to sell it as its paid off in a few months. Can anyone help persuade me to stay stock block or to build it up. If I build it how much more hp can I pull from the gtx3071r at max boost with our engine? 500whp give or take? Just can't decide what to do so please provide some input. Eric Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

IMO going with more power then you have now and building out the engine isn't worth it. You are making 400 at the wheels and can do so in a fairly reliable fashion with little downtime. If you push for more power then that, built engine or not, you're car ain't going to be much of a DD anymore.

[ABolewski]

OEM long block is like $3450 or something right?
I agree with Lex. Buy that, add k1 rods, then you can sell your block/head/crank for a decent amount of money.
But I've never done it that's just what I would do for a 450 whp goal.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Mchart ...If you push for more power then that, built engine or not, you're car ain't going to be much of a DD anymore.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, power delivery in the tune is everything. My car is quite docile until i really get on it, and i've even gone back to stock PMM because i was tired of the shakes and rattles, im by no means a "because race car" person.

[DoMiNic]

I say run it until you vent the block, mean while get a short block and start building it on a stand in your awesome garage. When you know you have a replacement you will be able to go out and push your car without worrying. Forged is the next step for you whether its now or later.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex You are introducing a lot of areas for failure - anything from machining to assembly, leaks, noises, matching parts etc. etc. Every little detail is important. For best reliability on a built I would do what Dano did and get a new OEM block, replace rods, seal it back up.

lex you took the letters right out of my fingers.

I feel confident that I can run 450WHP on this motor all day long for 50-75k miles maybe more. I could probably push it to 475-500 and live on the edge again but don't feel its worth it.

to go from say 400-450WHP upward IMO requires a huge commitment to yourself and your car. it is no longer a DD or at least you better have a backup car. I currently do not and don't have plans to acquire one.

my plan for longevity on the OEM pistons is to mitigate the variables that lead to piston failure.

1) heat management
2) heat management (repeated for effect)
3) deto management ( less of a concern with E85 an proper tune)

I contribute my genwan OEM piston failure to two possible causes

1) over heating leading to ringland failure
a) coolant over heating
b) cylinder wall washing due to gen1 design [ my pure gut feeling here]
2) too much timing leading to ringland failure.

coolant heat management is a key factor IMO and I am addressing that with a new fan controller. The gen 2 piston design in itself should mitigate some of the heating caused by wall washing. I also opened up the ring gaps to mitigate possible butting which again is a huge improvement IMO.

so in the end all I changed in my brand new OEM LB was to add Carrillo rods to fit the OEM PE taper and open up the ring gaps. I used OEM head bolts as I believe the current TQ spec for ARP2K is insufficient and is less than OEM clamp force.

Time will tell if my plan will pan out.

edit: oh and to answer your question I would NOT build unless you do the above or want to turn your car into racecar. The less you touch the more chances of success.

[Mchart]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Gonna have to disagree with you there, power delivery in the tune is everything. My car is quite docile until i really get on it, and i've even gone back to stock PMM because i was tired of the shakes and rattles, im by no means a "because race car" person.

Not talking about power delivery and NVH. Talking about down-time. I mean yeah, once you get everything working and assuming you don't have any further issues it'll be fine. Good luck getting there though.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Mchart Not talking about power delivery and NVH. Talking about down-time. I mean yeah, once you get everything working and assuming you don't have any further issues it'll be fine. Good luck getting there though.

Ahh, i see what you meant now.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Dano lex you took the letters right out of my fingers. I feel confident that I can run 450WHP on this motor all day long for 50-75k miles maybe more. I could probably push it to 475-500 and live on the edge again but don't feel its worth it. to go from say 400-450WHP upward IMO requires a huge commitment to yourself and your car. it is no longer a DD or at least you better have a backup car. I currently do not and don't have plans to acquire one. my plan for longevity on the OEM pistons is to mitigate the variables that lead to piston failure. 1) heat management 2) heat management (repeated for effect) 3) deto management ( less of a concern with E85 an proper tune) I contribute my genwan OEM piston failure to two possible causes 1) over heating leading to ringland failure a) coolant over heating b) cylinder wall washing due to gen1 design [ my pure gut feeling here] 2) too much timing leading to ringland failure. coolant heat management is a key factor IMO and I am addressing that with a new fan controller. The gen 2 piston design in itself should mitigate some of the heating caused by wall washing. I also opened up the ring gaps to mitigate possible butting which again is a huge improvement IMO. so in the end all I changed in my brand new OEM LB was to add Carrillo rods to fit the OEM PE taper and open up the ring gaps. I used OEM head studs as I believe the current TQ spec for ARP2K is insufficient and is less than OEM clamp force. Time will tell if my plan will pan out. edit: oh and to answer your question I would NOT build unless you do the above or want to turn your car into racecar. The less you touch the more chances of success.

So you keep mentioning HEAT as a major factor. I live in the hottest part of the country in AZ and it's already in the 100's here daily. My car seems to run a little hotter then everyone elses as we were comparing ECT's and mine at cruising speed at 100* ambient temp outside is around 214-219. It never seems to go above 219. Others in AZ were reporting their ETC's to be around 187-195 so i'm considerably higher then everyone else. I'm assuming the ETC's play a major role in this HEAT situation you are referencing.

Any tricks to lowering my engine temps? Should I do a coolant flush and use something different? I did a full coolant flush when I put my big turbo on back in October and i just used the Autozone house brand 50/50 coolant. Others here are saying they are using 75% water, others say they are using the 50/50 premix with water wetter.

In your opinion what would be the most ideal coolant solution to lower the ETC's in a desert environment? Keep in mind it doesn't get cold here in the winter and my car stays in the desert. I have 2 jeeps I drive to northern Arizona in the cold country to go snow skiing but down here in sunny PHX my car remains. It will never see below freezing temps.

Thoughts on how to get those ETC's down?

[LumberJack]

Subbing for the great info coming into this thread. I'm currently making about 430/400 on 1.01 VD and potentially going to push for more with meth once I have it installed. Yes, I know I'm highly highly asking from vented block mod, but it's not always my DD here in cali, got a gsxr for that lol. I'm about to start building a block on the side since it is only a matter of time before it happens. Although, when I do drive I am extremely nice to my car and rarely go WOT.

Goodluck with your decision and will be in for results which ever way you go

[Karmat]

A built engine is by no means more reliable there are more factors that can lead to some sort of issue.

A built engine is simply stronger and may not blow up at higher power levels.

An OEM block with 300whp is arguably more reliable than a built block with 300whp. Of course when you are sitting at 450whp and up strength rather than reliability become a bigger concern.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Lex]

For heat management my first step would be an upgraded radiator and also adjusting the tune to not run on the edge when really hot. Being sensible is also a good idea knowing that the heat rejection package from Mazda is meant for 263 crank hp, not 400whp.

I would not track a stock cooling system car at 400whp or anywhere close. Besides the chassis and brakes would be overwhelmed too quickly.

Also it's a performance car, I want to go WOT, I want to have fun, in my opinion if I spend 99% of the time babying it, I bought the wrong car of went too far with the mods.

On top of this, although this is not generally accepted, too much power DOES upset the balance of the car and chassis. Everything from drivetrain lash (and mounts that are needed), to the brakes, to the suspension becomes less and less adequate as power levels increase. All of a sudden a car that is tossable in a corner becomes something that has to always be feathered around and it's less rewarding to drive. And it's easy to lose sight of this as the numbers increase.

Power delivery is very important. I feel that for the MS3, a solid 375 ft lbs +/- a few to the wheels is the sweet spot I don't really want to go above. I want to keep that 375 as deep into the rev range as possible however. At redline you'd be looking at 480whp and most setups fall below this because the motor doesn't like to breathe up there.

[LumberJack]

I don't always baby my car lol, I drive it hard on occasions, I was simply stating that I'm not the guy that power shifts every on ramp through the gears and goes WOT every single chance he gets. I get into boost and have fun when I can, but I also only live 1.7miles from my work and it's all city streets so I don't have the chance to really WOT my car on a daily commute to and from.

[chuckms6]

I think there are three categories on motors here: stock, rebuilt (used block, crank, etc.) , and built ( 100% New components with upgraded internals and what not). I see stock as being reliable but not strong, rebuilt being strong but not reliable, and built possibly being both strong and reliable, given the build was done correctly in all cases. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Lex For heat management my first step would be an upgraded radiator and also adjusting the tune to not run on the edge when really hot. Being sensible is also a good idea knowing that the heat rejection package from Mazda is meant for 263 crank hp, not 400whp. I would not track a stock cooling system car at 400whp or anywhere close. Besides the chassis and brakes would be overwhelmed too quickly. Also it's a performance car, I want to go WOT, I want to have fun, in my opinion if I spend 99% of the time babying it, I bought the wrong car of went too far with the mods. On top of this, although this is not generally accepted, too much power DOES upset the balance of the car and chassis. Everything from drivetrain lash (and mounts that are needed), to the brakes, to the suspension becomes less and less adequate as power levels increase. All of a sudden a car that is tossable in a corner becomes something that has to always be feathered around and it's less rewarding to drive. And it's easy to lose sight of this as the numbers increase. Power delivery is very important. I feel that for the MS3, a solid 375 ft lbs +/- a few to the wheels is the sweet spot I don't really want to go above. I want to keep that 375 as deep into the rev range as possible however. At redline you'd be looking at 480whp and most setups fall below this because the motor doesn't like to breathe up there.

What about as far as the coolant liquid itself goes? Whats the best mixture for these cars? Thats what i'm looking for.

[MPS_Fan]

Does an aftermarket Down pipe, Manifold and Turbo increase the engine coolant temperature? I mean, you remove all heat shieldings and heat is exposed directly to the engine bay. I have a BNR S3 and reused all heat shielding on Turbo and still running OEM Manifold and Downpipe. My ECT's are always at 190-195°.

And to get back to the topic, I was although thinking about a build engine. Buy if you stay below 400whp, run stock engine and enjoy the car... safe the money, you can still invest in a build if you blow.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by chuckms6 I think there are three categories on motors here: stock, rebuilt (used block, crank, etc.) , and built ( 100% New components with upgraded internals and what not). I see stock as being reliable but not strong, rebuilt being strong but not reliable, and built possibly being both strong and reliable, given the build was done correctly in all cases. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727

This. There is literally no reason that a PROPERLY built engine should have a shorter life than a stock engine. If you're pushing the components hard, there will be failures. If the build is not done properly, there will be failures. There's no reason that stronger components shouldn't be just as reliable as the stock parts. It really comes down to proper assembly and machining.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by MPS_Fan Does an aftermarket Down pipe, Manifold and Turbo increase the engine coolant temperature? I mean, you remove all heat shieldings and heat is exposed directly to the engine bay. I have a BNR S3 and reused all heat shielding on Turbo and still running OEM Manifold and Downpipe. My ECT's are always at 190-195°. And to get back to the topic, I was although thinking about a build engine. Buy if you stay below 400whp, run stock engine and enjoy the car... safe the money, you can still invest in a build if you blow.

Good call. I need to find the oem heat shield for exhaust manifold as i threw mine away. I'm still on OEM exhaust manifold so might be wise to find one and install that to help push the heat away from the engine bay

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex For heat management my first step would be an upgraded radiator and also adjusting the tune to not run on the edge when really hot. Being sensible is also a good idea knowing that the heat rejection package from Mazda is meant for 263 crank hp, not 400whp. I would not track a stock cooling system car at 400whp or anywhere close. Besides the chassis and brakes would be overwhelmed too quickly. Also it's a performance car, I want to go WOT, I want to have fun, in my opinion if I spend 99% of the time babying it, I bought the wrong car of went too far with the mods. On top of this, although this is not generally accepted, too much power DOES upset the balance of the car and chassis. Everything from drivetrain lash (and mounts that are needed), to the brakes, to the suspension becomes less and less adequate as power levels increase. All of a sudden a car that is tossable in a corner becomes something that has to always be feathered around and it's less rewarding to drive. And it's easy to lose sight of this as the numbers increase. Power delivery is very important. I feel that for the MS3, a solid 375 ft lbs +/- a few to the wheels is the sweet spot I don't really want to go above. I want to keep that 375 as deep into the rev range as possible however. At redline you'd be looking at 480whp and most setups fall below this because the motor doesn't like to breathe up there.

I agree totally that the best option for heat management is to increase the size of the rad. unfortunately the koyo rad pushes the fan assembly 1/4 to 1/2 inch closer the the engine. IDK about all FMIC kits but I don't think that will work with my Cobb v2 without cutting on the fan shroud itself. I am attempting to put a number of heat management options together to provide an overall cooler operating environment.

1) turn the fan on more often and don't wait until 217 to do so.
2) 25/75 coolant to distilled water solution [done with caution if you live in a freezing climate]
3) Ducting modifications around the rad.

so basically optimizing what I have to work with and not upsize my rad.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 Thoughts on how to get those ETC's down?

see above but I am just at the beginning of this journey. The coolant solution doesn't appear to have made much difference in just driving around the city. I still hit 217-220 all the time in traffic [85* AMB] but the solution may cool faster once air gets moving IDK.

I think the real difference will occur after this weekends fan controller install is completed.

Then up next is ducting work on the top and bottom of the core support.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Dano I agree totally that the best option for heat management is to increase the size of the rad. unfortunately the koyo rad pushes the fan assembly 1/4 to 1/2 inch closer the the engine. IDK about all FMIC kits but I don't think that will work with my Cobb v2 without cutting on the fan shroud itself. I am attempting to put a number of heat management options together to provide an overall cooler operating environment. 1) turn the fan on more often and don't wait until 217 to do so. 2) 25/75 coolant to distilled water solution [done with caution if you live in a freezing climate] 3) Ducting modifications around the rad. so basically optimizing what I have to work with and not upsize my rad.

Any specific brand or type of coolant preferred to go with the distilled water? What about adding a bottle of water wetter with the 25/75 mix?

This is the stuff I currently have in my car and it's 100% of the 50/50 premix stuff.

AutoZone/50/50 antifreeze and coolant (AXA053) | Antifreeze | AutoZone.com

I'll drain this out and give something else a try for sure. Just need to know what the most recommended coolant brand and type of coolant to use to mix with the distilled water.

[Dano]

all I have heard is WW is snake oil...lol

I just used the PEAK premix [ready to go no dilution] with 75% distilled water.

[austin102085]

it was deff worth it for me back in the day (2008) when these things blew left and right. but now im seeing way more stock blocks pushing big power with the right supporting mods and tunes.
build cost just under 3100 for everything

(little info.... i built my engine with 24k miles and now have 80k)

[theurgy]

Has anyone considered using a different thermostat?
That might also be a fairly cheap option for getting better cooling.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by theurgy Has anyone considered using a different thermostat? That might also be a fairly cheap option for getting better cooling.

Lots of people have considered it; but nobody has found one that fits yet.

[theurgy]

Someone should create a thread listing some of the shortfalls in support for our platform.

This would be one of them, also a better radiator that has more fitment options/lower profile fans etc...
The lack of a decent intake manifold for our cars etc...

[phate]

I bought my car with the intention of building it asap. Yes, I would definitely do it again. Not having near the worry when you're producing that torque is WONDERFUL. And when I get a bigger turbo and even more torque....I won't worry about it as much. [There is always worry, no matter which way you go.]

If you do it right ONCE, the potential for failure is minimal. If you understand the hardware limitations - potential for failure is drastically reduced. Just because the engine is "built" doesn't mean it's bullet proof. I knew my limitations, so I had my machinist do the majority of the work. 7k miles on the engine and it's making 400ish lb-ft on the low end. I'll push it further once I get my head studs retightened.

A built engine, though, is definitely not a "build and forget" sort of thing. It takes a lot of miles to build that trust with it. It took me a couple UOA's and wringing out the rpm's more than a few times before I felt comfortable going out and actually racing. You will likely be paranoid in that time about every little noise, lol.

It's up to you to read about all of the failures....head studs, crank bolts and friction washers, head gaskets, bearing failures, timing, etc etc. There's a wealth of knowledge on the site, and it would be unwise to go forward without reading about where we have been. You're risking $1,000's if you don't.