Want to install EFR 7163 on MS3 in Russia/is it possible?

[Gocci23]

Hi all, i'm from Moscow(Russia) and immediatly i want to forgive me cause of my bad english
I'm going to install the borg warner turbo on my car(MPS 3-MazdaSpeed 3 g1)
and have some questions if you don't mind.
I tried to search the similar threads but i can't understand anythings cause of my english.
And first i wanted to install exactly efr 6758, but then my friend in Russia advised me to install efr 7163. He said that this turbo is much powerful than 6758. Is is true?
Also he said that this turbo has the same size as 6758 or a little bit bigger and theoretically there is no problem to install it. Is is true too?)
In Russia everobody installed only Garret turbos, and we have no experience in installion borg warner, so no one can give me advise. I want to buy turbo soon, and worried if'll buy efr7163 and then it'll be impossible to install it(cause of it size). Please help me to make a right choice.
PS: I have already a forged rods and pistons, and don't afraid for life of my engine)
Sorry of my English one again)
Thanks you advance for the advices

[Mazdazilla6]

7163 fits fine. @Alpha; runs one and has yet to have any issue with it. And it is the same externally as the 6758 because they both use the same housings.

[Enki]

Alpha is running an MPS 6 though. I have an MPS3 and a 6758 installed, which fits fine. You will need a new exhaust manifold for that turbo to install, as well as intake and downpipe.

[Alpha]

Yup! Like the guys said, the 7163 is still a small frame turbo, but don't let it's size fool you. The mixed flow turbine is sick... The thing spools like a K04 and moves air like a 35r!

[Gocci23]

Thank's for answers, but now i can't find 7163 in stock only 6758...
Maybe someone knows where it can be available?

And also i wonder - my car is 8.5:1 compression ratio and stock K04 now... it have only 280 hp and 500nm flywheel power(255 gramm air in second). It max what k04 can make on my ecu tune. I think it's because of my compression ratio. If I'll install 6758 or 7163, will i have problems due of it?(CR 8.5)

Sorry of my english again))

[Mazdazilla6]

No, having a lower CR will not have bad effects. You will have slightly less power when not in boost. And have you tried fullrace's webiste? They may have them, or they might be on back order.

[Jackis]

I was tuning that guy in Moscow this summer. Not only tuning but sourcing with parts and guidelines also.
Weve got chinese manifold for him from xs-power run, rewelded flange and redesigned downpipe.

I liked its boost, and the fact that efr on pump gas outperforms k04-hybrid with meth and nasty ignition. It really spools faster than stock, as per logs.

After some messing up with wastegate preload and ebcs being not linear at all (lolz) we have got number like these:



This is flywheel hp comparison for efr6758/pump gas/boost1.5bar/ign16 car and for k04_kinugawa/boost1.4bar/meth50-50/ign22

[Enki]

Yes yes but how many American cheeseburgers of torque is that?

Also, this is why I want the 7163 hotside on the 6758. That would be a brutal combo for sure.

[Jackis]

Thanks for your post, Enki!
I might say that it was quite moderate boost, only 1.55 bar, which is approximately 22psi.
550Nm of torque is equal to 410ftlb
Not a wild torque, but the guy above (Gocci23) has installed 3bare map only now, so that was the maximum I could obtain, having boost under control.
Now I am tuning another 7163 with FR kit installed, surprisingly it is going to full boost by 3600rpmm which seems very slow and strange. I had the same issue when I forgot to put valve seat in my tial ewg, but here it is internally gated 7163 and I do not know where to dig more

[Enki]

What wastegate canister are you using? The internal wastegates on these turbos flow a TON of exhaust, so allowing them to crack open even a little is going to affect spool. Any more info on mods on this particular vehicle?

[Jackis]

Yes, this is my main concern too. Me myself, I was dealing with tial mvr valve seat not installed into the assembly. Spool was shifted by 900rpm. After I localized the issue and put it inside, my gtx spooled to 1.5 bar by 3000rpm on 4th gear which was just amazing. And before it was 3800-3900, which was awful.

About that particular setup, I am tuning it remotely. I am not aware unfortunately how it was done./ But it was full FR kit with EFR7163, crashbar, FR manifold, FR intake (which I am still calibrating, couldnt get in the spot by the first calibration, one more needed
Fueling is stock excepth for autotech internals.

Here is the log I am referring to, attached below

[Enki]

Hmm. I'd check the WGA for proper 3mm of preload required, maybe up it to 5mm. Also check for boost and exhaust leaks, if possible, and there might actually be something wrong with the engine if that knock isn't caused by a rattle.

7 degrees timing @ 5500 rpm with 4 counts of knock is rather excessive. If the crank angle sensor is off, then the engine is probably full of timing already and 7 degrees could be past MBT.

[Jackis]

Originally Posted by Enki Hmm. I'd check the WGA for proper 3mm of preload required, maybe up it to 5mm. Also check for boost and exhaust leaks, if possible, and there might actually be something wrong with the engine if that knock isn't caused by a rattle. 7 degrees timing @ 5500 rpm with 4 counts of knock is rather excessive. If the crank angle sensor is off, then the engine is probably full of timing already and 7 degrees could be past MBT.

Thanks Enki, I think I might create another thread for that another build, to not to mess up here with this one. I will mention you there, sir, if you don't mind!
So far with large knocks (I bet youre right about the ignition being set inproperly, cause 7deg at 5000 - is kindergarden ignition by all means) and not addressed spool efr is performing well anyway, but what annoys me is that every other time I am getting another maf curve and I just can not get ideal afr curve so far).

[btstarcher]

@PHAUZZY; and @jdmage_mx5; here's another one.

[PHAUZZY]

More info on the manifold being used for this? These efr turbos have my eye and probably will be my choice once built... Tho I'm not sure what size yet

[Jackis]

Originally Posted by PHAUZZY More info on the manifold being used for this? These efr turbos have my eye and probably will be my choice once built... Tho I'm not sure what size yet

Hey sir! You do mean about MS3 efr6758 setup?
I might post some pictures right now.
We have used that xs-power manifold, which has found himself as quite well done, but with inproper turbo positioning. I had one here with me, we welded on T25 flange and used as staring point for downpipe welding work.
Now there are lots of that chinese manifolds on ebay now: Turbo Exhaust Manifold for Mazda mazdaspeed 3 6 2 3 MZR Disi 2 3L K04 K0422 | eBay
I have attached some photos of the setup that topicstarter has right now.

[Enki]

If the intake is big enough there can be issues with getting AFRs perfect. Also, if crankcase evac is routed into the inlet for WOT operation, then you could be getting random amounts of inert gasses that will fuck with your AFRs as well.

I have a hell of a time trying to get the WOT AFRs perfect on my car, and wound up giving up (for the short term, anyways).

[Jackis]

Yeah sir, FR intake is fucking huge (about 3.6 inches I suppose) and the crancase breather was routed into inlet (FR kit had it just laying around in the air)...

But I should stop messing up in this build with two cars, I guess. Those russians speak only russian, I couldnt make them open threads here by theirown, and I am too lazy to do that for them, but I need to. Especially if I do not address that strange knocking issues.

What makes me surprised - is the fact that knocking begins when I put VVT to zero. I usually make it fall down to zero quite fast on turbos greater than stock and it saves me ton of headache in general, but this motor doesn't like zero VVT... Now will try with stock values, but having 20degrees of VVT advance with 350g of air is not what I usually do...

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Jackis Yeah sir, FR intake is fucking huge (about 3.6 inches I suppose) and the crancase breather was routed into inlet (FR kit had it just laying around in the air)... But I should stop messing up in this build with two cars, I guess. Those russians speak only russian, I couldnt make them open threads here by theirown, and I am too lazy to do that for them, but I need to. Especially if I do not address that strange knocking issues. What makes me surprised - is the fact that knocking begins when I put VVT to zero. I usually make it fall down to zero quite fast on turbos greater than stock and it saves me ton of headache in general, but this motor doesn't like zero VVT... Now will try with stock values, but having 20degrees of VVT advance with 350g of air is not what I usually do...

Yeah, the FR intake doesn't recirc the crankcase tube (Not like you'd want it to IMHO)

Originally Posted by Jackis Yeah sir, FR intake is fucking huge (about 3.6 inches I suppose) and the crancase breather was routed into inlet (FR kit had it just laying around in the air)...

Yeah, the FR intake doesn't recirc the crankcase tube (Not like you'd want it to IMHO)

You guys didn't want to go with the Full Race manifold and 2pc downpipe? ... Would've made things SUPER easy to mount.

[PHAUZZY]

Thanks for the info, you say the turbo position was wrong? What about it was wrong so I'll know what could be involved

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Jackis But I should stop messing up in this build with two cars, I guess. Those russians speak only russian, I couldnt make them open threads here by theirown, and I am too lazy to do that for them, but I need to. Especially if I do not address that strange knocking issues. What makes me surprised - is the fact that knocking begins when I put VVT to zero. I usually make it fall down to zero quite fast on turbos greater than stock and it saves me ton of headache in general, but this motor doesn't like zero VVT... Now will try with stock values, but having 20degrees of VVT advance with 350g of air is not what I usually do...

If the knocking starts with VVT at zero, it could be chain tension/the chain tapping the valve cover. I'd check that just to be sure.

Originally Posted by PHAUZZY Thanks for the info, you say the turbo position was wrong? What about it was wrong so I'll know what could be involved

EFR turbos are really, really WIDE turbos due to design. It's pretty much their only fault as far as I'm concerned, and even that fault is due to design benefits pertaining to multiple things, including the wastegate. See attached for size comparison.

[Jackis]

Originally Posted by PHAUZZY Thanks for the info, you say the turbo position was wrong? What about it was wrong so I'll know what could be involved

Actually I did mean not the EFR was wrong, but for the design to be done, we were needing some manifold to try it here and there... We've got one of chinese manifolds done for our cars (but I meant that those manifolds are quite strong but not ideal fit for stock turbo, thats what I meant about wrong positioning).

So to not to be confused - that EFR really had a lot of work to do to fit, especially if starting from "stock" manifold, as we did. Look at the downpipe on the pictures above (they are for ms3 actually), and you can see how radically it is bent.

[btstarcher]

Adam look at the other EFR threads; in particular check out @Tomas; and @Alpha; build threads. They're both MS6.

[Enki]

Not having good crancase evac cost me a LOT of power, FYI.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Jackis Actually I did mean not the EFR was wrong, but for the design to be done, we were needing some manifold to try it here and there... We've got one of chinese manifolds done for our cars (but I meant that those manifolds are quite strong but not ideal fit for stock turbo, thats what I meant about wrong positioning). So to not to be confused - that EFR really had a lot of work to do to fit, especially if starting from "stock" manifold, as we did. Look at the downpipe on the pictures above (they are for ms3 actually), and you can see how radically it is bent.

Originally Posted by Enki Not having good crancase evac cost me a LOT of power, FYI.

Crackcase pressure should be handled with a proper CC setup (I have the PERM plate and dual CC setup)... Having the recirc'd intake pipe installed isn't going to change that much though.

[Enki]

I beg to differ.

I had both crankcase and valve cover teed to a vent to air hose; should have been plenty of flow out of the engine, but when I went back to stock configuration the gains were immediately noticeable, with no change to the tune.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Enki I beg to differ. I had both crankcase and valve cover teed to a vent to air hose; should have been plenty of flow out of the engine, but when I went back to stock configuration the gains were immediately noticeable, with no change to the tune.

It must not have been, clearly. Again, recirculation to the intake path won't make a drastic change either way you go.

[Enki]

The configuration was pretty much identical to the PERM configuration that's attached, execpt I had no filter or catch cans or Perm plate; all evac was going through unblocked tube to a T and out of the car with no restriction.

You know what? You're right, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just the guy that built AND tuned this car on his own. What would I know if it just decided to gain 20-40 HP with such a simple modification?

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Enki The configuration was pretty much identical to the PERM configuration that's attached, execpt I had no filter or catch cans or Perm plate; all evac was going through unblocked tube to a T and out of the car with no restriction. You know what? You're right, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just the guy that built AND tuned this car on his own. What would I know if it just decided to gain 20-40 HP with such a simple modification?

Don't be a wise ass dude... All I'm saying is that I have no problems NOT recircing the intake. If you did and fixed it going a different route, than congrats... Jeez... Get off your high horse.

[PHAUZZY]

Do you have more pictures of this mounted? Where the turbo sits etc. Also maybe I glazed over it but what did you do for oil lines and other lines?

[btstarcher]

Here is Tomas's build. More details IIRC. And Enki's build, even though it's a lowly MS3 he goes into great detail. I forgot about all the hostility between those fags Enki and Alpha; y'all need to kiss and make up.

Also, it may or may not be relevant, but my setup was similar to @Enki; with the crankcase and valvecover both VTA, and I also saw "gains" on VD (not quantified, but estimated around 20whp). However I still have my valvecover VTA; I only connected a sealed OCC between the IM and PCV valve. I can see how it would free up some horsepower by properly connecting both, especially with a bigger turbo.

[Jackis]

I have created separate thread for full-race kit guy, to stop confusing people:
EFR7163: Midnight in Moscow - is sunshine in LA

Regarding PCV: me presonally, I prefer having some source of vaccum under boost. And if considering sucking air in stock-style through simple OCC (as we did) OR just having filter there - I surely will choose first option. I am not going to argue much, because I have already seen gains about 10-15whp on dyno when I routed ventilation to inlet on my own gtx3071 setup, and I quite understand why it is so.