GT vs BNR

[Mchart]

Yup. No point in big turboing unless you are crackalackin that meth or that crazy corn allready.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by Todd98SE I think what @rfinkle2 is getting at is that regardless of turbo (and especially using a mazda flanged turbine housing) we are knock limited by regular fuel. No meth, no E, no water injection, you will have a hard time consistently getting over 350-375ish on the above mentioned turbos. Also dont throw out numbers from a dyno in 20 degree weather while throwing ice on the intercooler, those are outliers and not really representative of this survey.

Before meth... I was 350's all day on pump 93, 23 psi, 17-18 max timing on the 2871

[Todd98SE]

Originally Posted by dturboman Before meth... I was 350's all day on pump 93, 23 psi, 17-18 max timing on the 2871

And were you close to knock limited at that point on the 93? I wont even mention the 91 that I have to use out here in California.

[Voltwings]

sorry, i am in the process of having a custom Front mount pieced / welded together for me at the moment so i'm rolling on stock intercooler and only 12 psi from the 3071. Give me two weeks or so -_- no pun intended and i will be on a dyno asap.

As it sat though, i was knock limited to about 20 psi and 8* timing on 93 octane alone on the 3071, a stock turbo E85 mazda yanked the SHIT out of me on that set up. Granted this is in South Texas where 90-100* temps and 80+% humidity is not uncommon, @dturboman what were the conditions in which you made that power on the 2871?
Went big turbo at 40k miles and at 46k now with no issues, and will have those dyno numbers for you guys ASAP. For what its worth i will be on a dynojet, its just the one ive always gone to so i can track my gains, ill post BT vs Stock dyno at that time.

Originally i was after the BNR because for the cost i could have had it and a manifold for just over the cost of the 3071. However, at the end of the day i realized i was going big turbo so i could make power and not be running the piss out of my system which i felt to achieve 380-400 whp i would still be doing with the BNR so i opted for the IWG gt3071r. So far no complaints, drivability is awesome, lag is negligible and i'm hard pressed to say i'm disappointed in this turbo. My goal however is to be sitting at about 25 psi so we'll talk about disappointment more after i'm on a dyno haha.

[aviator79]

Im thinking of getting a BNR S3 to put on a MS6 I just got. Thinking I can do this on an unbuilt engine and be safe wit a good tune. Safer than untuned on stock turbo. But I have a nonsmoker so would want to get a smoker turbo to send in to BNR and just keep my nonsmoker for when I sell the 2nd MS6. I was going to put a GTX3076 and my other car where my built engine will be going but fuck GT and GTX turbos. Have to figure out what else I can use on top mount that will be compareable.

[JacksonMS30]

Originally Posted by Todd98SE I think what @rfinkle2 is getting at is that regardless of turbo (and especially using a mazda flanged turbine housing) we are knock limited by regular fuel. No meth, no E, no water injection, you will have a hard time consistently getting over 350-375ish on the above mentioned turbos. Also dont throw out numbers from a dyno in 20 degree weather while throwing ice on the intercooler, those are outliers and not really representative of this survey.

As you step up in turbo size, you are able to flow more air more efficiently at less boost. This allows the knock limit to go up because the turbo isn't working as hard and makes less heat.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I'll let someone whom YOU think knows what they are talking about confirm my statement for me. Subbed. Not a snowball's chance in hell the gtx2867 will make > 375 horse on pump gas. I guess a "Perm tuner" will need to confirm. @Lex, @atvfreek @Dano, little help here please.

Ill confirm one thing.. your head is sitting straight up your ass. So do me a favor and zip up the asshole lips to make it air tight please. Thanks

[dturboman]

2871 NO meth, 20psi 18* timing 93 pump

[JacksonMS30]

Originally Posted by aviator79 Im thinking of getting a BNR S3 to put on a MS6 I just got. Thinking I can do this on an unbuilt engine and be safe wit a good tune. Safer than untuned on stock turbo. But I have a nonsmoker so would want to get a smoker turbo to send in to BNR and just keep my nonsmoker for when I sell the 2nd MS6. I was going to put a GTX3076 and my other car where my built engine will be going but fuck GT and GTX turbos. Have to figure out what else I can use on top mount that will be compareable.

Whats wrong with the GT/GTX turbos? I ran my gtx3071 between 24 and 28psi for a year and 25k miles with no problems at all. Made 386whp and 400wtq with 3gal of e85 on stock ex mani and stock cbe. Oh and that was stock block too. The car had 70k miles when I installed the turbo and 95kmiles when I upgraded to the HTA3586.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by JacksonMS30 Whats wrong with the GT/GTX turbos? I ran my gtx3071 between 24 and 28psi for a year and 25k miles with no problems at all. Made 386whp and 400wtq with 3gal of e85 on stock ex mani and stock cbe. Oh and that was stock block too. The car had 70k miles when I installed the turbo and 95kmiles when I upgraded to the HTA3586.

Alan, i think people are getting a bit freaked out by the failure rate of the GTX's. Mikes thread has actually become interesting. I wasn't aware that were that many failures with em until that thread got started.

[Todd98SE]

Originally Posted by JacksonMS30 As you step up in turbo size, you are able to flow more air more efficiently at less boost. This allows the knock limit to go up because the turbo isn't working as hard and makes less heat.

Agreed completely. There is a point of diminishing returns though with larger and larger turbines. The knock resistance of the fuel, the engines compression ratio, and exhaust manifold backpressure (reversion) numbers all contribute to a natural horsepower ceiling. Better fuel, lower compression, and the ability to keep the turbine working in crossover get you above that ceiling.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by Todd98SE And were you close to knock limited at that point on the 93? I wont even mention the 91 that I have to use out here in California.

light knock happened about 1-2 degrees north of where we were, also running on ITV24's helped a good bit.

Originally Posted by Haltech Alan, i think people are getting a bit freaked out by the failure rate of the GTX's. Mikes thread has actually became interesting. I wasn't aware that were that many failures with em until that thread got started.

I've had great luck with these turbos thus far... and pushed each one way beyond where it should live, not one failure. yet

[StayBroke]

Im still awaiting to go to the dyno with mine, but i hopefully will be going soon and i hope to be in the 375hp.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by dturboman light knock happened about 1-2 degrees north of where we were, also running on ITV24's helped a good bit. I've had great luck with these turbos thus far... and pushes each one way beyond where it should live, not one failure. yet

Yeah, luck seems to be the keyword in this sentence though. Go hit up Mikes thread and i think you will see what i mean about the term "luck".

[S-hendrix]

I think this is a difficult debate because there are numerous factors involved for what makes a 'better' turbo. Whether it is preventing knock, running a larger turbo to run cooler. Which in turn can create slower spool, bad for auto-x. But if you're running meth, you can run hotter without knock. And if you have E85, you can get lots of HP over 93/91. And don't forget about climate, elevation, reliability, designated use, power goals, budget etc...

So in this argument there is really no standard. I bought the BNR S3 to replace my blown k04 as a reliable option with more power. I wasn't going for 400HP and I know without upgrading many other things that wasn't happening without a much larger turbo, meth and possibly e85. I could get more out of the BNR but for my power goals im enjoying where it's at.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by Haltech Yeah, luck seems to be the keyword in this sentence though. Go hit up Mikes thread and i think you will see what i mean about the term "luck".

Ohh I have, I will keep pushing them, hopefully quality improves in the future.

[SpeedRebirth]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Pretty obvious Eric is worried about his ATP sales to a BNR though, imo.

I know for a fact that eric/jp only wants the best for us, even if it means he wont sell a turbo. My friend has a 2010 MS3 and wanted to go BT. Called edge and talked to them for 1h, they told him that he should go with the BNR. Not even trying to "sell their product" to him

And yeah i understand that edge will sell supporting mods either way. But customer service is what edge is all about (thats the way to make money, so win win)

[Mchart]

Originally Posted by Haltech Yeah, luck seems to be the keyword in this sentence though. Go hit up Mikes thread and i think you will see what i mean about the term "luck".

Not to mention being warranty fucked.

[JacksonMS30]

Originally Posted by Haltech Alan, i think people are getting a bit freaked out by the failure rate of the GTX's. Mikes thread has actually become interesting. I wasn't aware that were that many failures with em until that thread got started.

The thing is there are not that many failures compared to how many are out there. We have sold over a hundred ATP turbos and so far only one of our customers has had a failed turbo and it got warrantied. We don't know all the details behind Mike's issue and why they didn't cover it since we didn't sell the turbo to him, and that situation sucks regardless of who's fault it is.

[dturboman]

I think too many trying to throw together their own tunes ( not talking about the real tuners) just think PSI, PSI, PSI... and forget that's only 10% of making power, I love pushing these cars and I never bump PSI till I maxed my working PSI in both AFR, MBT, and the way the curve lays.

my 20psi 2871 is making what many 3071's are laying down on more boost. - Thats not what I call a tune.

[dereeek]

I haz a BNR3 with 2k miles on it
I went with the BNR3 because I wanted to make 350 hp and that's all I want from my FWD car, nothing more than that.

[JP@edgeautosport.com]

@rfinkle2, we care about sales because that's what gives us the ability to keep serving the community, but only second compared to what's best for the customer, as many people on this forum will attest to based on their dealings with us.

The Garrett turbos are a better VALUE hands down. This is what we are trying to prove.

If you are on the fence about that concept, this means you have not done your research. This is what we are trying to present here.

We understand why people buy BNR turbos, we understand there will always be a market for them. We will not choose to discriminate or dislike someone for purchasing a BNR turbo. We simply believe a GT turbo is a better solution for this platform. If FP made HTA turbo with a Garrett foundation I would say the same thing. If Precision made a bolt-on application, I would say the same thing.

The bottom line is people are paying $1199 for a factory re-worked turbo capable of not much more than what people have done on a factory turbo. If that's all you can afford, we understand. But if you can fork out the dough, the Garrett is a better turbo.

801MS3 ran an 11.9 on a GT3071 IWG bolt-on @ 4600 ASL. Tell me what BNR can come close to that.

If anybody that reads through this would like to ask us any questions, PM, email, or call us. We will be glad to share any details you'd like. We have helped more people build their cars successfully than will ever see this thread.

As far as VDyno goes, there's a figure of speech that says, "When the rubber meets the road". VDynos are cool for conversation, bad for proving anything.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by JP@edgeautosport.com @rfinkle2, we care about sales because that's what gives us the ability to keep serving the community, but only second compared to what's best for the customer, as many people on this forum will attest to based on their dealings with us. The Garrett turbos are a better VALUE hands down. This is what we are trying to prove. If you are on the fence about that concept, this means you have not done your research. This is what we are trying to present here. We understand why people buy BNR turbos, we understand there will always be a market for them. We will not choose to discriminate or dislike someone for purchasing a BNR turbo. We simply believe a GT turbo is a better solution for this platform. If FP made HTA turbo with a Garrett foundation I would say the same thing. If Precision made a bolt-on application, I would say the same thing. The bottom line is people are paying $1199 for a factory re-worked turbo capable of not much more than what people have done on a factory turbo. If that's all you can afford, we understand. But if you can fork out the dough, the Garrett is a better turbo. 801MS3 ran an 11.9 on a GT3071 IWG bolt-on @ 4600 ASL. Tell me what BNR can come close to that. If anybody that reads through this would like to ask us any questions, PM, email, or call us. We will be glad to share any details you'd like. We have helped more people build their cars successfully than will ever see this thread. As far as VDyno goes, there's a figure of speech that says, "When the rubber meets the road". VDynos are cool for conversation, bad for proving anything.

let me dig up my slips... I ran low 12's on the GT2871 @116, GT3071 11.9@124 from what i remember.

these turbos are underdogs in my eyes.

[Colin1337]

I dont really think rfinkles claimes are justified about this being all about sales.

Even if EVERYONE went with a BNR, majority of them are still going to want to get supporting mods for said turbo, aka more sales for Edge... Its a win win for them either way.
Just my perspective on those comments.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Haltech Ill confirm one thing.. your head is sitting straight up your ass. So do me a favor and zip up the asshole lips to make it air tight please. Thanks

What about what I said is untrue?

And vdyno is very accurate, whether the rubber meets the road or not.

I'm sorry that you commented that this isn't 2010, besides dturboman, show me a pump gas mazda flanged car making > 350 hp, and I'd be happy to concede.

Originally Posted by Colin1337 I dont really think rfinkles claimes are justified about this being all about sales. Even if EVERYONE went with a BNR, majority of them are still going to want to get supporting mods for said turbo, aka more sales for Edge... Its a win win for them either way. Just my perspective on those comments.

The 2871 and the BNR are extremely close, and if this is purely coincidence, (the existence of this thread), I apologize.

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 i for one am actually seriously interested in this thread i know my requirements but am unsure of the turbo choice i want 375ish hp i need quick spool for autox i dont want to push 25+psi to get there no need http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...7-9wtq-110833/

He is running e30 and a SHIT TON of meth and would be the first to agree that the car is knock limited to around 330-350 on pump gas.

[mtnrunner]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 What about what I said is untrue? And vdyno is very accurate, whether the rubber meets the road or not. I'm sorry that you commented that this isn't 2010, besides dturboman, show me a pump gas mazda flanged car making > 350 hp, and I'd be happy to concede. The 2871 and the BNR are extremely close, and if this is purely coincidence, (the existence of this thread), I apologize.

I know for a fact that if people stopped buying all atp turbo's from edge they would still grow just as fast as they have been. There simply is not a big profit margin on these things. money is made from selling all the supporting mods and growing in volume of sales.

Edge autosport will never sell a product they dont back and they will be honest with the customers if their opinion is asked. this holds true even if it means loosing a sale. I think edge has done enough to prove they are not out trying to take advantage of anyone.

[Voltwings]

At the end of the Day its not any skin of Rfinkles back who people chose to buy their turbos from, what purpose they buy them for, or what power theyre looking to make. Lets all stop bitching and quit crapping the thread up, this has potential to be a very long and detail laden thread, it doesn't need dead space of pointless finger pointing.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by JP@edgeautosport.com @rfinkle2, we care about sales because that's what gives us the ability to keep serving the community, but only second compared to what's best for the customer, as many people on this forum will attest to based on their dealings with us. The Garrett turbos are a better VALUE hands down. This is what we are trying to prove. If you are on the fence about that concept, this means you have not done your research. This is what we are trying to present here. We understand why people buy BNR turbos, we understand there will always be a market for them. We will not choose to discriminate or dislike someone for purchasing a BNR turbo. We simply believe a GT turbo is a better solution for this platform. If FP made HTA turbo with a Garrett foundation I would say the same thing. If Precision made a bolt-on application, I would say the same thing. The bottom line is people are paying $1199 for a factory re-worked turbo capable of not much more than what people have done on a factory turbo. If that's all you can afford, we understand. But if you can fork out the dough, the Garrett is a better turbo. 801MS3 ran an 11.9 on a GT3071 IWG bolt-on @ 4600 ASL. Tell me what BNR can come close to that. If anybody that reads through this would like to ask us any questions, PM, email, or call us. We will be glad to share any details you'd like. We have helped more people build their cars successfully than will ever see this thread. As far as VDyno goes, there's a figure of speech that says, "When the rubber meets the road". VDynos are cool for conversation, bad for proving anything.

I gotta agree, you are a great outfit to deal with and have the best intention for the customer in mind.

Let's hope these pixie dust CP-e turbos don't end up there...

The point for the BNR is that its a safe turbo that can have its torque placed on the down low while delivering decent horsepower. I think its a great option for those who want that extra punch without the worry factor. Besides the fact you don't have to worry about that violent quick spool of the 2871... or deal with ATP's crappy IWG. Sub 300 speed's are very funny cars to drive too.

[rfinkle2]

You may forget who was the first to defend Edge in their original thread.
@eric@edgeautosport.com and @JP@edgeautosport.com would have to agree, I went to bat for them many times, but this thread is fishy.

@ the end of the day, I think the gtx2867, 2871 and bnrs3 all are capable turbos.

If you want to make 400 hp, I still stand by the fact that you will need meth injection or some e85 to do so.

I think that the bnr s3 can take you as far as any of the gtx turbos if you decide to run only pump gas. That is my point.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You may forget who was the first to defend Edge in their original thread. @eric@edgeautosport.com and @JP@edgeautosport.com would have to agree, I went to bat for them many times, but this thread is fishy. @ the end of the day, I think the gtx2867, 2871 and bnrs3 all are capable turbos.

Fishy? I think its smart for them to judge the market. The whole ATP thing in regards to Mike's issue brought a few things to light for everyone. Personally, ATP would never see a dime of my money until they fix their IWG problem. So my personal opinion, would be to skip the 2871 entirely and go right to a BNR for under 400. Anything higher, ill get a T3 setup and bypass the Mazda flange.

And i told you back in 2010, timing is the key to this car making power once you have your fueling strategy worked out. This platform has come a long way in 16 months, so don't be surprised to see the HP levels up on these smaller turbos.

[Lex]

I think a lot of people forget the "details" when it comes to tune and a setup and it doesn't stop at the turbo. There are many parts that can help or harm a setup's potential and little things such as a poorly flowing air filter can make more of a difference than you think from my recent testing. A truly efficient setup flows a great amount of air at as little boost as possible and has great cooling. Once you get into 22-23+psi on this motor you get into knock on most setups so the key is - how can you flow the most while keeping pressure as low as possible and spool decent.

We are coming out of summer. Summer not only reduces the efficiency of any compressor, but it also brings knock to the table. You will see numbers rise again as we get into winter. Tuned lots of 300whp K04 cars in the winter ... the summer ... not so much. The cars are the same, conditions are different. So time of year, ambient temperatures, altitude, all play a large role. 20 psi in the winter is very different from 20psi in the summer.

Different locations have different gas qualities. I've tuned people that can run almost E85 like timing on 93 octane and others that can't get out of 6* at redline.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Haltech Fishy? I think its smart for them to judge the market. The whole ATP thing in regards to Mike's issue brought a few things to light for everyone. Personally, ATP would never see a dime of my money until they fix their IWG problem. So my personal opinion, would be to skip the 2871 entirely and go right to a BNR for under 400. Anything higher, ill get a T3 setup and bypass the Mazda flange. And i told you back in 2010, timing is the key to this car making power once you have your fueling strategy worked out. This platform has come a long way in 16 months, so don't be surprised to see the HP levels up on these smaller turbos.

People who read this thread will make their own decision on why it was made, but in my garage, sits an ATP gtx2867, which will eventually go into my car.

I sold my BNR to atvfreek.

I'm not trying to be biased towards one or the other, my intention was to keep this debate fair.

You will not see HP numbers > 350 on pump gas regardless of turbo unless someone vastly improves the capability of the motor to breath.

[Lex]

It's all in the details. 23 degree IAT cooler and 3" SRI versus 2.63" SRI. Same TIP, same timing, same boost, same turbo, same everything else.

Oh and yes the numbers can be reproduced over and over again.

[helmetface]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 43 (41 members and 2 guests)

Just saying, shits popular.

[JDW1]

People will love both and ppl will have problems with both. I chose a BNR because Brian's shop is less than 10min from my house and I know him pretty good, on top of it fitting right up with all the mods I already had. If this wasn't my DD and I was in for the most power then 3071 all the way but my 20psi 12 max timing DD that is ~325/345 in the summer tuned by me and can still get 24 MPG is just fine.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

@dturboman thanks for posting all the dyno info exactly what I was looking for. I know there has to be more guys out there so speak up.

This thread was never biased to one turbo over the other it just really helps me gauge what I need to inform my customers about when they call in looking for info on different power goals.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by JP@edgeautosport.com @rfinkle2, we care about sales because that's what gives us the ability to keep serving the community, but only second compared to what's best for the customer, as many people on this forum will attest to based on their dealings with us. The Garrett turbos are a better VALUE hands down. This is what we are trying to prove. If you are on the fence about that concept, this means you have not done your research. This is what we are trying to present here. We understand why people buy BNR turbos, we understand there will always be a market for them. We will not choose to discriminate or dislike someone for purchasing a BNR turbo. We simply believe a GT turbo is a better solution for this platform. If FP made HTA turbo with a Garrett foundation I would say the same thing. If Precision made a bolt-on application, I would say the same thing. The bottom line is people are paying $1199 for a factory re-worked turbo capable of not much more than what people have done on a factory turbo. If that's all you can afford, we understand. But if you can fork out the dough, the Garrett is a better turbo. 801MS3 ran an 11.9 on a GT3071 IWG bolt-on @ 4600 ASL. Tell me what BNR can come close to that. If anybody that reads through this would like to ask us any questions, PM, email, or call us. We will be glad to share any details you'd like. We have helped more people build their cars successfully than will ever see this thread. As far as VDyno goes, there's a figure of speech that says, "When the rubber meets the road". VDynos are cool for conversation, bad for proving anything.

JP, I like you and your company, and agree with 90% of what you said in the above statement.

I'm a customer, and in most cases, feel you do what is best for us.

The truth is though, the thread title is BNR or GTX 375-400 whp and I do feel that the BNR has proved worthy of making that power.

I also feel that the 3071 is not for everyone on our forum. Yes, many of us don't mind what goes into installing and maintaining a 3071, but to call the 3071 a "drop in", when compared to the BNR, it is a stretch of words.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 People who read this thread will make their own decision on why it was made, but in my garage, sits an ATP gtx2867, which will eventually go into my car. I sold my BNR to atvfreek. I'm not trying to be biased towards one or the other, my intention was to keep this debate fair. You will not see HP numbers > 350 on pump gas regardless of turbo unless someone vastly improves the capability of the motor to breath.

Rob, we all have different goals for our cars... So i am sure you picked the right turbo for your goal. No one is trying to discredit you for you selling the bnr for that 2867. Were all looking forward to the numbers it makes.

I never believed this car was good for drag racing outfits, but its one hell of a car for open track. With that said, 350-380hp is perfect for shredding up the course in this car while handing STIs, GTi's and Evo's their asses.

If i was back in my old street racing outfit, i would have some nasty T4 dual scroll setup that would just yank people.

Different goals call for different turbos. That's what makes owning a turbo car so bitchen.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I also feel that the 3071 is not for everyone on our forum. Yes, many of us don't mind what goes into installing and maintaining a 3071, but to call the 3071 a "drop in", when compared to the BNR, it is a stretch of words.

I believe it is a drop in, ive installed several of these units and if all it takes is to bend the oem coolant return line to complete installation thats as easy as its gonna get for the most part.

We are not working with stock turbos here so fittings, mounting locations, and size of turbo all have to be taken into consideration when doing a drop in kit no matter the manufacture.

This thread was never meant to bring up installation, thats what we have how to's for, I was primarily interested in the numbers of each unit lets try and keep it on that track.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 JP, I like you and your company, and agree with 90% of what you said in the above statement. I'm a customer, and in most cases, feel you do what is best for us. The truth is though, the thread title is BNR or GTX 375-400 whp and I do feel that the BNR has proved worthy of making that power. I also feel that the 3071 is not for everyone on our forum. Yes, many of us don't mind what goes into installing and maintaining a 3071, but to call the 3071 a "drop in", when compared to the BNR, it is a stretch of words.

i will respectfully have to disagree with you there after having virtually "dropped" one into my car and heres why. People upgrade to the BNR for two reasons: 1. They're stocker is blown so why not upgrade. 2. They're looking for more but not too much.

If someone is "looking for more" they are likely already bolted / tuned. The only hard part "Needed" to run the 3071 at that point is an intake, everything else, intercoolers / exhausts will still work. i had planned on purchasing a BNR and running a 3" intake to maximize it anyways, so it made switching to a 3071 a fairly easy choice, i just had to order a 3"-4" coupler. Now i had to pull my manifold off which was not a terribly hard ordeal, and i believe @atvfreek snuck his BNR in without doing so. i feel these are the only two differences as far as installing and running these turbos is concerned.