GT vs BNR

[rfinkle2]

I apologize if I was aggressively posting. I didn't intend to make EDGE look like the bad guy here.

I'm pissed off @ ATP @ the moment, and it probably bled into what and why I posted in this thread.

The guys @ Edge have done me right, and ATP has a good track record.

I'm adding the above to my OP to clarify my intentions.

(Still think the BNR is more of a drop in than a 3071, but that is for another thread)

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 (Still think the BNR is more of a drop in than a 3071, but that is for another thread)

are you saying that as in, its not as drastic of an upgrade? If thats what you're meaning then yes i agree with you 100% but as far as literal terms of "dropping them in" see my last post haha.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Voltwings are you saying that as in, its not as drastic of an upgrade?

I'm saying that the BNR is more suited to one of our members who creates a thread asking if he destroyed his car by jacking it up in the wrong place.

The guys posting in here don't mind getting back under the car, tweaking this and that, possibly cutting a turbo bracket etc.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @cld12pk2go, @Voltwings... 3071's check in please. I don't know man, it smells that way to me. My opinion. I respect yours.

I like my GTX3071...

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I like my GTX3071...

I would like that to except the crazy shit your AFR is doing lol

Sent from galaxy Nexus vis CM10

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I like my GTX3071...

LOL. I know you do, and I like your 3071 too.

I would not recommend the average ms3'r own your car though.

Originally Posted by Deldran I would like that to except the crazy shit your AFR is doing lol Sent from galaxy Nexus vis CM10

One of my points.. cld12pk2go has some pretty extensive methanol and meth tuning knowledge.

His set-up is not your average 3071.

I hope people got my point.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I like my GTX3071...

The numbers in your sig look a lot more realistic than that VD, are those old / different set ups? Or are you simply showing us a power curve with the VD, im sure you've got it in a thread somewhere but if you dont mind posting boost / timing octane ...

Edit: ok i see boost now in the VD, but the rest of my question still stands haha

[rfinkle2]

Eric, are you guys going to carry CP-E's new super stock turbo?

[ckMS3]

You can get 370+whp on a bnr with e85 and a good flowing setup, even on stock map sensor at 22psi. I wouldn't be so quick to say 400whp is easily achievable on a 3071 as you would need meth and e85 at >22psi.

Now is that 30whp or so worth the extra cost, to some maybe. With a 3071 you always have room to push further if you decide to build the engine or push the stock engine limits. With the bnr not so much, but thats what makes it a good turbo for the stock engine, not saying the gtseries aren't because you always tune it to be safe, but when you factor in power, cost, and reliability, you can't go wrong with the bnr. If your looking for 400+ with great spool get a 3071 and up.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Eric, are you guys going to carry CP-E's new super stock turbo?

The turbo thats 3 years late... I guess better late than never.

[Speed3eak]

I'm curious about the power gains from a BNR s3 vs. an upgraded ex-mani + a ported intake mani/vtcs delete. Seems that you'd have a better dyno with the bnr but idk if the car would be that much faster as a practical matter for a DD because the k04 can make so much torque down low. I dunno. I don't claim to be experienced with these kinds of things.

I'm glad I'm a pussy, otherwise all of these awesome dynos would make me want to upgrade to a 3071. Although I said that exact same thing when I was just on intake+tune.

shit.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak I'm curious about the power gains from a BNR s3 vs. an upgraded ex-mani + a ported intake mani/vtcs delete. Seems that you'd have a better dyno with the bnr but idk if the car would be that much faster as a practical matter for a DD because the k04 can make so much torque down low. I dunno. I don't claim to be experienced with these kinds of things. I'm glad I'm a pussy, otherwise all of these awesome dynos would make me want to upgrade to a 3071. Although I said that exact same thing when I was just on intake+tune. shit.

The bnr would simply crush a k04 in DD applications. I have a vid of me on meth vs e85 tuned k04 cars, and I walk away.

I went with bnr because of the opportunity that came up. The bnr will perform just as good as a GT2871 and will stay right with a GT30 on the rd. As rfinkle said, you will become knock limited early, especially with summer time temps. Where the GT30 and Gtx30's shine is higher boost. If you are staying within stock block/fuel limits, meaning pump gas no meth. Then a bnr and GT28 would be a better fit. To get over 400 on a GT/GTX30 you will need meth/e85 or both.

I'm knock limited on my bnr with a d07 meth nozzle at around 350whp.

I will have some dyno proof soon with the bnr, but so far it looks like 370 will be the number. If I get lucky and its cold out, I may come close to 400 uncorrected but its a stretch.

Freekn tappin

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak I'm curious about the power gains from a BNR s3 vs. an upgraded ex-mani + a ported intake mani/vtcs delete. Seems that you'd have a better dyno with the bnr but idk if the car would be that much faster as a practical matter for a DD because the k04 can make so much torque down low. I dunno. I don't claim to be experienced with these kinds of things. I'm glad I'm a pussy, otherwise all of these awesome dynos would make me want to upgrade to a 3071. Although I said that exact same thing when I was just on intake+tune. shit.

The BNR can match the k04s torque, but the key factor with the BNR is everyone only pays attention to peak whp and is blind to the power band. "oh the BNR only makes 30 more PEAK whp it sucks." when in reality when you consider its ability to take power past 5500 / 6000 where the stock turbo falls on its face, where the gains are as much as 50-60 whp. There are several variables, but for that factor alone the BNR will ALWAYS be superior to the stock turbo.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 He is running e30 and a SHIT TON of meth and would be the first to agree that the car is knock limited to around 330-350 on pump gas.

I cannot say that I have any evidence to support the 330-350 knock limit as I personally haven't run without at least meth and mostly with meth + eth...

I simply haven't run that test to have any data to contribute...

However, with meth + eth the GTX3071 can support mad power.

Originally Posted by Voltwings The numbers in your sig look a lot more realistic than that VD, are those old / different set ups? Or are you simply showing us a power curve with the VD, im sure you've got it in a thread somewhere but if you dont mind posting boost / timing octane ... Edit: ok i see boost now in the VD, but the rest of my question still stands haha

Acutally, the numbers in my sig were with LCV2™ shutting down the fun up top and approx 60 g/s less on my MAF than the VD I posted today...

I will return to the dyno in the near future and expect to achieve something very close to that VD as my previous VD was in the 410-420 range when I got the 415whp dyno...

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...7-9wtq-110833/

Originally Posted by Deldran I would like that to except the crazy shit your AFR is doing lol Sent from galaxy Nexus vis CM10

That pull was atypical around 4k for the rich spot. My other pull on the same day was 12:1 +/- 0.2 across the RPM range...

[mtnrunner]

I dont see any reason why we wouldnt include any kind of fueling combinations in this. That is to say compare pump bnr to pump gt, meth bnr to meth gt, 5th port....the best comparisons are going to be putting it all out on the table.

I feel like quite a few people that are upgrading turbos are either adding ethanol or using meth.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by mtnrunner I dont see any reason why we wouldnt include any kind of fueling combinations in this. That is to say compare pump bnr to pump gt, meth bnr to meth gt, 5th port....the best comparisons are going to be putting it all out on the table. I feel like quite a few people that are upgrading turbos are either adding ethanol or using meth.

Agreed, but then add any additional cost to the package for either side of the argument.

I guess I got caught up in the BNR hanging with the ATP turbos assuming one was sticking with pump gas.

The 3071 is a much more powerful turbo, obviously.

Also, the 3071 needs wastegate porting, unless you plan on running MBC.

[JP@edgeautosport.com]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Eric, are you guys going to carry CP-E's new super stock turbo?

Ha, I figured this was going to come up. We'll carry it because we're dealers of CP-E and like we've said since the beginning, we understand there will always be a market for this type of turbo (never said it was a bad option). But WHEN COMPARED TO a Garrett, we'll always recommend Garrett. I'm serious when I say if that HTAed and reworked stock turbo could achieve 400whp maxed out, I'll still take a GT30 after having driven mine this long.

[mtnrunner]

adding costs is going to be the same as supporting mods are the same when it comes to fueling.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by JP@edgeautosport.com Ha, I figured this was going to come up. We'll carry it because we're dealers of CP-E and like we've said since the beginning, we understand there will always be a market for this type of turbo (never said it was a bad option). But WHEN COMPARED TO a Garrett, we'll always recommend Garrett. I'm serious when I say if that HTAed and reworked stock turbo could achieve 400whp maxed out, I'll still take a GT30 after having driven mine this long.

I'm not trying to stick it to you as far as carrying that turbo, and I'm sure you would steer someone in the direction you thought best, but I just found it interesting that Eric compared the BNR rather than the CP-E variant of a superstock turbo.

Originally Posted by mtnrunner adding costs is going to be the same as supporting mods are the same when it comes to fueling.

Agreed 100% but if you have a limited budget, it is a factor.

I am trying to take it easy on the ATP kit, maybe you don't get that I am making that effort.

I could lay out all of the additional cost that the 3071 brings with it and equalize the cost argument, but understand where Edge is coming from.

[S-hendrix]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak I'm curious about the power gains from a BNR s3 vs. an upgraded ex-mani + a ported intake mani/vtcs delete. Seems that you'd have a better dyno with the bnr but idk if the car would be that much faster as a practical matter for a DD because the k04 can make so much torque down low. I dunno. I don't claim to be experienced with these kinds of things. I'm glad I'm a pussy, otherwise all of these awesome dynos would make me want to upgrade to a 3071. Although I said that exact same thing when I was just on intake+tune. shit. The BNR can match the k04s torque, but the key factor with the BNR is everyone only pays attention to peak whp and is blind to the power band. "oh the BNR only makes 30 more PEAK whp it sucks." when in reality when you consider its ability to take power past 5500 / 6000 where the stock turbo falls on its face, where the gains are as much as 50-60 whp. There are several variables, but for that factor alone the BNR will ALWAYS be superior to the stock turbo.

^THIS^

The beauty of the BNR is the powerband. I can run my BNR to redline and barely drop below peak boost.

DroidX2-TapTapTaparooo

[mtnrunner]

IMO you're still trying to bias your argument. It's easy to say bnrs3 plus x mods made xxxhp and gt plus the same x mods made yyypower. costs are determined after the comparison and not a driving factor. nobody is saying the gt is cheaper and Eric even stated the GT will cost more.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by mtnrunner IMO you're still trying to bias your argument. It's easy to say bnrs3 plus x mods made xxxhp and gt plus the same x mods made yyypower. costs are determined after the comparison and not a driving factor. nobody is saying the gt is cheaper and Eric even stated the GT will cost more.

The BNR will make 375 - 400 hp for cheaper, less work and an easier install as the thread title states (GT vs. BNR) and goes on to ask about the magic 400 hp number.

Ok, I'm biased.

[triplejumper18]

Limited budget and turbo upgrade in the same sentence probably isn't a good thing.

[rfinkle2]

Alright guys. I didn't mean to bash Edge, ATP or anyone in this thread.

I think I have expressed my opinion enough and hopefully showed some respect for yours.

[Domino81]

This thread sort of annoys me. I can't be the only person in here that has limited access to E85 and doesn't really want to mess with meth. So when I see numbers like 400 in the same sentence with BNR I get annoyed. Who DOES have 400 whp from one of these turbos without E85 or meth?

[helmetface]

Originally Posted by Domino81 This thread sort of annoys me. I can't be the only person in here that has limited access to E85 and doesn't really want to mess with meth. So when I see numbers like 400 in the same sentence with BNR I get annoyed. Who DOES have 400 whp from one of these turbos without E85 or meth?

That's the whole point...

[SarcasticOne]

Originally Posted by Domino81 This thread sort of annoys me. I can't be the only person in here that has limited access to E85 and doesn't really want to mess with meth. So when I see numbers like 400 in the same sentence with BNR I get annoyed. Who DOES have 400 whp from one of these turbos without E85 or meth?

Believe @atvfreek got there on a gtx3071, on vd anyways...

Did a 3071 vs bnr S3 thread somewhere...

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Domino81 This thread sort of annoys me. I can't be the only person in here that has limited access to E85 and doesn't really want to mess with meth. So when I see numbers like 400 in the same sentence with BNR I get annoyed. Who DOES have 400 whp from one of these turbos without E85 or meth?

Just start messing with meth and you are golden...



But seriously, you could even just add ~1.5 gal per tank without a meth injection kit and gain a huge amount of knock resistance...

[anavrinIV]

Originally Posted by Domino81 This thread sort of annoys me. I can't be the only person in here that has limited access to E85 and doesn't really want to mess with meth. So when I see numbers like 400 in the same sentence with BNR I get annoyed. Who DOES have 400 whp from one of these turbos without E85 or meth?

I'm in the same boat...I'd like to pull 350 on pump gas and then later consider going meth. I don't plan on having e85.

although I very well may just go 5th port...that shit looks legit

[cld12pk2go]

My opinion:

Both the BNR S3 and GTX3071 are great choices for our platform...

If you want no more than 350-380whp (maybe 400 if really pushed), then the BNR S3 is great.

If you want 400-450whp, then the GTX3071 will get you there with only ~300 RPM later spool than the BNR S3.

Lots of win either way...

[Voltwings]

well these are different turbos with different characteristics, if we're trying to compare these turbos we need to define what it is we're comparing, a set of criteria needs to be established. We've already seen a few dynos, and we've already seen some Octane choices but we need a hard set of criteria for comparison or this thread will go nowhere.

If @atvfreek and @cld12pk2go would like to assist me in this comparison

For example: Atvfreek is making what was it 370 whp on god i dont remember your boost, 26? Now, directly comparable to what cold12pk is making on 26 psi... It would seem that the BNR is a capable turbo, however being a larger turbo, lb for lb and mod for mod, octane for octane, the GT series turbos (30+ frame for the sake of this argument) will be making more power. Now where the BNR brings some of its advantage back to the table is power band, it does spool a hair quicker than the 30 series turbo, with no tweaks and stock manifold my 3071 spools to 25 psi at 3600 rpm. So it is safe to say that in the mid-range it is possible for the BNR to jump a similarly set up 3071, however the 3071 will have the stronger top end, not to say a 3071 will be playing catch up like a supra, but this is still speculation.

These are the types of comparisons that need to be made, i always look at a cars whp starting at 4k, because doing a 3rd gear 50 roll thats about where we sit, much lower than that and its not applicable for a race.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Voltwings well these are different turbos with different characteristics, if we're trying to compare these turbos we need to define what it is we're comparing, a set of criteria needs to be established. We've already seen a few dynos, and we've already seen some Octane choices but we need a hard set of criteria for comparison or this thread will go nowhere. If @atvfreek and @Cold12pk2go would like to assist me in this comparison For example: Atvfreek is making what was it 370 whp on god i dont remember your boost, 26? Now, directly comparable to what cold12pk is making on 26 psi... It would seem that the BNR is a capable turbo, however being a larger turbo, lb for lb and mod for mod, octane for octane, the GT series turbos (30+ frame for the sake of this argument) will be making more power. Now where the BNR brings some of its advantage back to the table is power band, it does spool a hair quicker than the 30 series turbo, with no tweaks and stock manifold my 3071 spools to 25 psi at 3600 rpm. So it is safe to say that in the mid-range it is possible for the BNR to jump a similarly set up 3071, however the 3071 will have the stronger top end, not to say a 3071 will be playing catch up like a supra, but this is still speculation. These are the types of comparisons that need to be made, i always look at a cars whp starting at 4k, because doing a 3rd gear 50 roll thats about where we sit, much lower than that and its not applicable for a race.

FYI, I can achieve ~400wtq from ~3500 RPM with the GTX3071...so lag is really not consequential from a roll compared to a BNR S3 that could probably achieve the same a few 100 RPM earlier...

It isn't like a GT3582 spooling closer to 4.5-5k or anything...

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go FYI, I can achieve ~400wtq from ~3500 RPM with the GTX3071...so lag is really not consequential from a roll compared to a BNR S3 that could probably achieve the same a few 100 RPM earlier... It isn't like a GT3582 spooling closer to 5k or anything...

Just trying to give the BNR a leg haha and not sound biased since i run a 3071.

[atvfreek]

Like cold12pk said, it all depends on power goals. I can tell you already that my bnr makes great power. It will pretty much put most high end, high hp cars in their place, however, I already want more. I'm a speed freek though. Haha. My 60-100 is 4.6-4.7 in 75-80 degree weather. That's movin and I know in cooler weather it will be 4.5ish. Dturboman was running his GT30 at close to 30 psi and making 500 hp. His 60-100 was 3.8. That is just retarded. Lol, so both turbos are plenty capable.
Freekn tappin

[dpolseno41]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Like cold12pk said, it all depends on power goals. I can tell you already that my bnr makes great power. It will pretty much put most high end, high hp cars in their place, however, I already want more. I'm a speed freek though. Haha. My 60-100 is 4.6-4.7 in 75-80 degree weather. That's movin and I know in cooler weather it will be 4.5ish. Dturboman was running his GT30 at close to 30 psi and making 500 hp. His 60-100 was 3.8. That is just retarded. Lol, so both turbos are plenty capable. Freekn tappin

What he is really saying is more people need to tune with him so he can do a full build.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Domino81 This thread sort of annoys me. I can't be the only person in here that has limited access to E85 and doesn't really want to mess with meth. So when I see numbers like 400 in the same sentence with BNR I get annoyed. Who DOES have 400 whp from one of these turbos without E85 or meth?

Not sure why you are hung up on not using methanol. Thats like being a crack addict who refuses to smoke his crack in a pipe with a lighter.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Ok there is waaaaay toooo much going on right now in this thread. Lets get some clarification on this thread real quick.

Back to the op. Never once did I state pump gas. We are in consensus it takes some type of extra fuel to hit 375-400whp? Ya? I was simply ask for people to post their setups to get them to those #s . I'm here to give people a better idea on what it really takes to achieve thier power goals

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Haltech Not sure why you are hung up on not using methanol. Thats like being a crack addict who refuses to smoke his crack in a pipe with a lighter.

well the systems are evolving and becoming more use friendly, but the systems do fail and its typically catastrophic when they do. Be it hydro-locking or it not spraying at all when youre on an aggressive high timing tune, shit goes south in a hurry. Luckily im on E85 and its readily available, however for those that its not, meth is a choice that requires a lot more ... motivation?

[Domino81]

I'm not opposed to using meth. I just don't want to HAVE TO use it. I want it to be the icing on the cake.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Voltwings well the systems are evolving and becoming more use friendly, but the systems do fail and its typically catastrophic when they do. Be it hydro-locking or it not spraying at all when youre on an aggressive high timing tune, shit goes south in a hurry. Luckily im on E85 and its readily available, however for those that its not, meth is a choice that requires a lot more ... motivation?

LAWL ok... There's a lot more components in your car opposed to the meth that are most likely going to fail on you. ANYTHING can fail....