l/a intercoolers, torque, and random nonsense.... hosted by DCR

[FantasmoNegro]

Originally Posted by LaDouche ummm.....no, fuck off is still my answer

Darryl Cox who knows a little bit more than you do, beleives our motors are every bit as strong as an SRTs might have something to do with Randdy's statement. Based off of some of the things you yourself did, helped lead some people in that direction. Stop being a hater.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche don't buy the partial throttle thing. n54s run crazy af ratios, no1 changes shit part throttle, no1 blows. U blow cause the motor is weak, you dont make power with BT set ups cause.....? No1 knows, but i got a feeling if randy/dcr ever find out, they might be 1 of 5 in the whole country to dump that kind of change into a ms3.

the motor is weak and thats why we blow part throttle?!? are you kidding me?
wot the motor is fine, but part throttle it blows....
so 100whp part throttle pulls are blowing this "weak" motor? is that seriously the best you can come up with?

loosh... you dont even have the first fucking clue what your talking about dude. this motor kicks ass wot where most motors would break up if they were "weak". motors that blow part throttle have nothing to so with being weak. they have to do with being abused. tuning blows motors part throttle.

now the car not making power... thats a design issue, and a fuel issue. but thats a whole nother disussion.

[Realgib3]

^ Funny thing is it was only a couple months ago Loosh was talkin about how he was way ahead of everybody using a diode to run richer afr at cruising/ part throttle cuz it was safer...um isn't that "tuning" part throttle??? At this point I think we've all at least figured out what the part throttle issues are, and seem to be a lot of people running a LOT safeer now. Making big power is a whole other story, as Pale said, and I firmly believe DCR has got that shit down too...

[JMEngineer]

Too many people are trying to narrow the problem down to one thing... It is clearly a tuning issue, but it's not just fuel and it's not just timing.

Before I go any farther let me say this - I know the AP 'dyno' isn't accurate but it has been consistent so I still use it for comparison from one run to another - which is really the only way you should use ANY dyno run

With my intake and TMIC on a stage 1 map, I made around 320 awtq. Since that I've added a few more mods and upgraded to a stage 2+ 91 map, and I just made 416 awtq @3300 rpm a couple days ago. I think the biggest issue is ignition timing. At cruise, there isn't much air or fuel in the cylinder so it can be ignited early, causing a pressure peak closer to TDC, but that pressure still isn't significant. With mods letting your car breath better, as soon as you step on the gas there is more air and fuel entering the cylinder. I think the combustion of the mixture too close to or before TDC is what causes engine failures. Since there is no moment arm to convert the force from the explosion into torque, all of the force acts on the rod and piston and BOOM. The thing I'm not so sure about it whether this combustion is caused by an early spark or by pressure and heat. Adding fuel should help keep heat from killing your engine, and backing off timing should help keep your engine from killing itself.

I've pulled back my timing at low rpm mainly at low loads, added fuel everywhere, lowered the closed loop exit delay, lowered the boost targets up to 3000rpm, recalibrated my MAF table, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I still plan to build an engine down the road, but I feel reasonably confident that my engine is safe making '416awtq' with my current tuning.

Try to run a csrt engine with our tuning tables and I can almost guarantee it won't get anywhere close to a true 500lbft

[killa cam]

lol, so many theories as to why our motors blow

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by killa cam lol, so many theories as to why our motors blow

The way I see it, you can narrow down all the theories into 3 categories - oil getting into the cylinders, tuning issues, or weak internals.

IMO weak internals has been ruled out, and oil in the cylinders (or in the turbo) is most likely a result of the engine blowing due to tuning issues, not the initial cause.

[Target:STi]

if this motor is so strong and DCR has so much faith in it, why are they building it up? why not try to max out the stock block first? blow it up, inspect it, rebuild, repeat. i thought that was the original idea? i mean if they want to shoot for a 9 or 8 sec speed3, thats great. but i believe alot of people were thinking more along the lines of maybe mid to low 12s without breaking the bank or the block.

and if they have the answer to the engine failing, why arent we hearing it from them?

[glocK23]

cuz they are using paleriders pos ms3 more than likely, which already has a blown motor or something similar lol.

no pun intended

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer Too many people are trying to narrow the problem down to one thing... It is clearly a tuning issue, but it's not just fuel and it's not just timing. Before I go any farther let me say this - I know the AP 'dyno' isn't accurate but it has been consistent so I still use it for comparison from one run to another - which is really the only way you should use ANY dyno run With my intake and TMIC on a stage 1 map, I made around 320 awtq. Since that I've added a few more mods and upgraded to a stage 2+ 91 map, and I just made 416 awtq @3300 rpm a couple days ago. I think the biggest issue is ignition timing. At cruise, there isn't much air or fuel in the cylinder so it can be ignited early, causing a pressure peak closer to TDC, but that pressure still isn't significant. With mods letting your car breath better, as soon as you step on the gas there is more air and fuel entering the cylinder. I think the combustion of the mixture too close to or before TDC is what causes engine failures. Since there is no moment arm to convert the force from the explosion into torque, all of the force acts on the rod and piston and BOOM. The thing I'm not so sure about it whether this combustion is caused by an early spark or by pressure and heat. Adding fuel should help keep heat from killing your engine, and backing off timing should help keep your engine from killing itself. I've pulled back my timing at low rpm mainly at low loads, added fuel everywhere, lowered the closed loop exit delay, lowered the boost targets up to 3000rpm, recalibrated my MAF table, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I still plan to build an engine down the road, but I feel reasonably confident that my engine is safe making '416awtq' with my current tuning. Try to run a csrt engine with our tuning tables and I can almost guarantee it won't get anywhere close to a true 500lbft

drugs are bad....................but seemingly popular here as of late

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider the motor is weak and thats why we blow part throttle?!? are you kidding me? wot the motor is fine, but part throttle it blows.... so 100whp part throttle pulls are blowing this "weak" motor? is that seriously the best you can come up with? loosh... you dont even have the first fucking clue what your talking about dude. this motor kicks ass wot where most motors would break up if they were "weak". motors that blow part throttle have nothing to so with being weak. they have to do with being abused. tuning blows motors part throttle. now the car not making power... thats a design issue, and a fuel issue. but thats a whole nother disussion.

have you dynoed pt with 18psi? I suggest trying so. This motor kicks ass? lol, if you call 350 whp limit and breaking while using cruise control kicking ass, then yea, it kicks your bank accounts ass. I dont have a clue what im talking about? Randy cause your a friend, i wont even respond to this comment. You hang out at dcr and make promisses and now all of a sudden you know everything?

[sleeperstang1994]

well even if some of this is true.....looks like i really need to figure out how to use ATR........any one want to make an easy how to???

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by sleeperstang1994 well even if some of this is true.....looks like i really need to figure out how to use ATR........any one want to make an easy how to???

take tons of drugs then you can apparently just name your result

[phailerider]

if you are gonna post in here and just vomit the same shit im gonna start deleting it. there comes a time where enough is enough.... and there are guys who own speeds who still care.

motors that blow partial throttle only are not weak. lack of fuel maybe. too much timing maybe. simple design flaw maybe.

guys mod their cars, add 100whp, dont tune them partial throttle, and then they blow partial throttle....

racing the motor is fine... but dont baby it. whats a weak motor have to do with it?

nothing.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider if you are gonna post in here and just vomit the same shit im gonna start deleting it. there comes a time where enough is enough.... and there are guys who own speeds who still care. motors that blow partial throttle only are not weak. lack of fuel maybe. too much timing maybe. simple design flaw maybe. guys with ms3/6 mod their cars, add 0-100whp, dont tune them partial throttle, and then they blow partial throttle.... duh.

fixed it for ya, your a saleman randy, we all know that. open your eyes to other platforms and see if you find more of the same. ill save you a couple hours, you wont.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by glocK23 cuz they are using paleriders pos ms3 more than likely, which already has a blown motor or something similar lol. no pun intended

Originally Posted by Target:STi if this motor is so strong and DCR has so much faith in it, why are they building it up? why not try to max out the stock block first? blow it up, inspect it, rebuild, repeat. i thought that was the original idea? i mean if they want to shoot for a 9 or 8 sec speed3, thats great. but i believe alot of people were thinking more along the lines of maybe mid to low 12s without breaking the bank or the block. and if they have the answer to the engine failing, why arent we hearing it from them?

darrell has no incentive to find a tune or simple fix to make our motors safe.
they are a speed shop.
they make their money on 400-700whp builds on other cars and it will be the same here.

the issues with the stock motor are quite frankly not much of a concern. they arent challenged by it. the motor is capable of 350whp all day long with the right tune. that DOESNT mean that they are gonna stake their reputation on a much of guys pushing the edge.

they could care less about all that.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche fixed it for ya, your a saleman randy, we all know that. open your eyes to other platforms and see if you find more of the same. ill save you a couple hours, you wont.

this car is tuned to the edge factory. fuel economy, emissions, torque.... 0-100whp is over the edge on many parts of the maps. so what? tune it out.

what the fuck do you think your telling me?

only a noob who doesnt have the first clue about the inside of a motor would look at ours blow partial throttle and say the cause is that its "weak".

[Laloosh]

but if the motor is so strong, as strong or stronger then a srt4 caliber that take 530 lbs of tq and runs mids 11s ont he stock block....why not proove that. No faith in this strong motor? They could make money selling their fuel solutions/ex/in manifolds/tuning solutions/maps. Theres a reason why hes skipping the stock motor....its because theres no point as it will blow.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider this car is tuned to the edge factory. 0-100whp is over the edge on many parts of the maps. what the fuck do you think your telling me?

wtf do u think your telling me? that the ms3 is the ONLY car tuned to the edge of emissions/ect....newflash, every new car runs this way. Whatst he af ratio part throttle on ure tuned vdub? yes tuned, im betting its still 14s. Hows the timing? Did you even check this?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche but if the motor is so strong, as strong or stronger then a srt4 caliber that take 530 lbs of tq and runs mids 11s ont he stock block....why not proove that. No faith in this strong motor? They could make money selling their fuel solutions/ex/in manifolds/tuning solutions/maps. Theres a reason why hes skipping the stock motor....its because theres no point as it will blow.

with the wrong tune the csrt will blow in a heartbeat at that power level.

the flaw is direct injection and the maps they use to tune it. end of story.

its why the high end lexus motors use port injection for partial throttle. the direct injection, tuned to the edge, leaves massive holes in the calibrations, imo.

it has nothing to do with weakness.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche wtf do u think your telling me? that the ms3 is the ONLY car tuned to the edge of emissions/ect....newflash, every new car runs this way. Whatst he af ratio part throttle on ure tuned vdub? yes tuned, im betting its still 14s. Hows the timing? Did you even check this?

ko4 upgradess on the 2.0l vdubs can bend rods at 300whp if the tune is wrong. theres a ton of them that have gone down.

the right maps on the bt 2871, and 3071 setups from apr, and giac, can make 360-370whp all day long with meth up top.

nobody says the motor is "weak". they says the tune is shit... and direct injection makes it tougher to get right. its taken years of apr tuning to feel good about making that much power safely.

go fucking give the gti owners shit for not making 400whp safely. they'll tell you your crazy. every car is different and ours is no different. the days of big power on the stock block is long gone on ANY car, if its direct injection only your going to rely on.

the same power in our cylinders would bend yours too. although i think its unfasir to compare us to bimmers. i think its obvious your rods are gonna be stronger than ours, or the vdubs considering who built it and what you paid to get into it.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider with the wrong tune the csrt will blow in a heartbeat at that power level. the flaw is direct injection and the maps they use to tune it. end of story. its why the high end lexus motors use port injection for partial throttle. the direct injection, tuned to the edge, leaves massive holes in the calibrations, imo. it has nothing to do with weakness.

who gives a fuck about lexus. What does the csr4 use for tuning....do you even know? Cause i believe its a basica piggy that doesnt even control pt....

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider ko4 upgradess on the 2.0l vdubs can bend rods at 300whp if the tune is wrong. theres a ton of them that have gone down. the right maps on the bt 2871, and 3071 setups from apr, and giac, can make 360-370whp all day long with meth up top. nobody says the motor is "weak". they says the tune is shit... and direct injection makes it tougher to get right. its taken years of apr tuning to feel good about making that much power safely. go fucking give the gti owners shit for not making 400whp safely. they'll tell you your crazy. every car is different and ours is no different. the days of big power on the stock block is long gone if its direct injection only your going to rely on.

thats great, but i asked you about pt tuning not power numbers.....imo a gti is another pos with a weak engine that not meant for big power.

As for the bimmers, i doubt our rods are stronger, instead we have 6 instead of 4.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche who gives a fuck about lexus. What does the csr4 use for tuning....do you even know? Cause i believe its a basica piggy that doesnt even control pt....

i didnt realize you were an expert in the ecu calibrations of port injected stock calibers. whats a piggyback have to do with this. were talking about partial throttle.

if the caliber was blowing partial throttle do you think darrell would still rely on a piggy uncapable of tuning it?

do you think he would curse the motor as "weak"....if he could track it safely at 500whp, but it blew driving to track pt everytime?

hed blame tuning chris.
dont tell me about the caliber. its port injected and tuned completely differently than our cars.
and dont tell me you know more than anybody whose ever studied engine internals... dcr has nothing to do with this. to dcr its common sense.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider i didnt realize you were an expert in the ecu calibrations of port injected stock calibers. whats a piggyback have to do with this. were talking about partial throttle. if the caliber was blowing partial throttle do you think darrell would still rely on the piggy? do you think he would curse the motor as "weak"....if he could track it safely at 500whp, but it blew driving to track pt everytime? hed blame tuning chris. dont tell me about the caliber. its port injected and tuned completely differently than our cars. and dont tell me you know more than anybody whose ever studied engine internals... dcr has nothing to do with this. to dcr its common sense.

wtf kind weaksauce answer is this. What do pt and piggys have in common? Is that a serious question? I never claimed to know more then dcr, however im fairly confident that when it comes to cars, i know alot more than you do, and i know things from experience, not by hanging around watching other people talk/work. Do it yourself on a couple platforms and youll start to get ideas as well.

whats speedshon using for tuning with hit bt and 125 of nitrous?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche who gives a fuck about lexus. What does the csr4 use for tuning....do you even know? Cause i believe its a basica piggy that doesnt even control pt....

i should have known better to mention the engineers at lexus who included port injection on their lexus motor for partial throttle.

why would you give them the time of day either right?

ive studied the design philosophy of the motor for hours and it is part of why i believe what i do. they added it for partial throttle fueling, to make the "perfect" motor. direct injection created flaws in the partial throttle maps.

they have stated this specifically ion their discussions about it.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider i should have known better to mention the engineers at lexus who included port injection on their lexus motor for partial throttle. why would you give them the time of day either right? ive studied the design philosophy of the motor for hours and it is part of why i believe what i do. they added it for partial throttle fueling, to make the "perfect" motor. direct injection created flaws in the partial throttle maps. they have stated this specifically ion their discussions about it.

since you studied this for hours.....how exactly does DI cause pt issues? Cause oddly enough the gti doesnt have pt issues or does it? BMW doesnt have pt issues....audi doenst have pt issues..i think.

[socks]

Originally Posted by LaDouche whats speedshon using for tuning with hit bt and 125 of nitrous?

An accessport tuned by Christian, with timing pulled for the nitrous.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by Speed3shon An accessport tuned by Christian, with timing pulled for the nitrous.

thats odd. How is your PT driving? Does DI fuck your car up completly for PT or is lexus onto something.....lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche wtf kind weaksauce answer is this. What do pt and piggys have in common? Is that a serious question? I never claimed to know more then dcr, however im fairly confident that when it comes to cars, i know alot more than you do, and i know things from experience, not by hanging around watching other people talk/work. Do it yourself on a couple platforms and youll start to get ideas as well. whats speedshon using for tuning with hit bt and 125 of nitrous?

i wasnt aware you had torn down, built and studied motors, and tested they blow.

and now your mocking me for "hanging around dcr" and getting wild ideas. youd like me to listen more to you? are you fucking kidding me?

youve messed around with a couple cars... but youve never torn a motor down. you dont have the first fucking clue about jack shit other than boltons, and a lttile street tuning. get over yourself man.

you are a smart guy, and you learn fast..... just like me. hanging around somebody that had actually done some of the things you bitterly speculate about might change your mind.

ive seen you learn to much, and change your mind to much when you actually experineced things first hand to take much stock from you in this conversation. its hard to discuss motors with a guy whose only ever seen them from the outside.

stick to your bimmer and your boltons, your piggy tunes.... leave the the other stuff to darrell and the guys he "hangs around with".

[Lex]

Originally Posted by LaDouche thats odd. How is your PT driving? Does DI fuck your car up completly for PT or is lexus onto something.....lol

So many contradictions - you just said the bimmer's rods are no better ... pick a side dammit and stick with it instead of arguing for the hell of arguing.

Originally Posted by LaDouche thats great, but i asked you about pt tuning not power numbers.....imo a gti is another pos with a weak engine that not meant for big power. As for the bimmers, i doubt our rods are stronger, instead we have 6 instead of 4.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by Lex So many contradictions - you just said the bimmer's rods are no better ... pick a side dammit and stick with it instead of arguing for the hell of arguing.

how is that a contradiction? The car makes power when you change boost. No1 blew one yet cause of power and the current high number is 538 or something on pos reworked stock turbo. Its a inline 6 3 liter, not i4 2.3 liter, no shit each rod is not going to see the same stress.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider i wasnt aware you had torn down, built and studied motors, and tested they blow. and now your mocking me for "hanging around dcr" and getting wild ideas. youd like me to listen more to you? are you fucking kidding me? youve messed around with a couple cars... but youve never torn a motor down. you dont have the first fucking clue about jack shit other than boltons, and a lttile street tuning. get over yourself man. you are a smart guy, and you learn fast..... just like me. hanging around somebody that had actually done some of the things you bitterly speculate about might change your mind. ive seen you learn to much, and change your mind to much when you actually experineced things first hand to take much stock from you in this conversation. its hard to discuss motors with a guy whose only ever seen them from the outside. stick to your bimmer and your boltons, your piggy tunes.... leave the the other stuff to darrell and the guys he "hangs around with".

ive never torn a motor down?

the begining of my dsm daily driver motor swap done on jack stands. the old motor threw the timing belt, i tore it down. Bent valves, fucked up pistons. Took the block completly apart and sold watever parts i could.

your telling me what ive done, this coming from a guy who blow how many motors and couldnt even figure out a standback. Leave the big boy work for the people you pay. Asnwer my questions, why is di bad for pt. This has nothing to do with DCR, your promises and speculation of unproven theories are just straight up bullshit and its getting just as annoying as me saying this motor is weak. Self proclaimed best thing to mazda community....shit old, im out.

[socks]

your comment "ill show you 10 over 400whp for every 1 blown you show me"

remember chris that you have 2 extra cylinders and an extra turbo. We're struggling to get to 100whp/cyl, shouldnt you be showing me 10 600whp 135/335s to make a valid point? how about you compare apples to apples, you have a twin turbo v6. hell that should be childs play to make 400whp. conquer a real challenge before you bang your chest...

[Target:STi]

Originally Posted by LaDouche but if the motor is so strong, as strong or stronger then a srt4 caliber that take 530 lbs of tq and runs mids 11s ont he stock block....why not proove that. No faith in this strong motor? They could make money selling their fuel solutions/ex/in manifolds/tuning solutions/maps. Theres a reason why hes skipping the stock motor....its because theres no point as it will blow.

i think you nailed it with this one.

well to me it seems pretty apparent like i said before. DCR will be able to do great things for you if youre willing to part with a whole lot of cash. for those of us stuck in the middle, we're shit out of luck. basically here are the options:

1. buy an MS3/6, leave it stock, slight chance of blowing it, run high 13s low 14s
2. bolt on a few things, good chance of blowing it, run mid to low 13s
3. add a few more things, run high 12's, put your name on Darksun's list
4. buy $15k worth of stuff from DCR and run 9's safely

i can't really get excited about that.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LaDouche since you studied this for hours.....how exactly does DI cause pt issues? Cause oddly enough the gti doesnt have pt issues or does it? BMW doesnt have pt issues....audi doenst have pt issues..i think.

the lexus guys who studied heat, combustion, and fueling for their first direct injection motor decided to spend a TON of extra money and add port injection for partial throttle calibrations.

too bad those idiots didnt listen to laloosh and just build the motor "stronger". instead they stuck to building a POS "weak" engine and adding an additional fuel system so it would perform properly.

chris... do you really think you are the only guy on the planet who has all the answers or do you just act that way most of the time? this discussion is so far ahead of your realm of knowledge that it isnt even funny or amusing anymore.

bottom line is direct injection has holes..... companys use it, and tune for it, for its advantages and they ignore the holes. it has NOTHING to do with weak motors... weak rods.

this motors internals stacks up right with the calibers and srts. ive seen to many come down, and heard too much of the discussion of ours side by side. this is a tuning issue and a fuel issue. and that is a fact.

you proved it. ron proved it. you logged a shitton of miles driving a certain way, adding fuel with the diode, monitoring knock like crazy.... the motor could have taken even more up top than you gave it. in the end it still might have blown... but it wouldnt have been because it was "weak".

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by Speed3shon your comment "ill show you 10 over 400whp for every 1 blown you show me" remember chris that you have 2 extra cylinders and an extra turbo. We're struggling to get to 100whp/cyl, shouldnt you be showing me 10 600whp 135/335s to make a valid point? how about you compare apples to apples, you have a twin turbo v6. hell that should be childs play to make 400whp. conquer a real challenge before you bang your chest...

didnt i already point this out....the only reason i even mentioned this cause once again the n54 was brought up into this convo. Dont you all know that my car is stock? And the reason there arnt any 600 plus n54s around is because no1 has the turbo for it. Once real turbos/turbo come out, people will test the limits of the engine, untill then they're stuck, runing out of turbo at 540

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by palerider the lexus guys who studied heat, combustion, and fueling for their first direct injection motor decided to spend a TON of extra money and add port injection for partial throttle calibrations. too bad those idiots didnt listen to laloosh and just build the motor "stronger". instead they stuck to building a POS "weak" engine and adding an additional fuel system so it would perform properly. chris... do you really think you are the only guy on the planet who has all the answers or do you just act that way most of the time? this discussion is so far ahead of your realm of knowledge that it isnt even funny or amusing anymore. bottom line is direct injection has holes..... companys use it, and tune for it, for its advantages and they ignore the holes. it has NOTHING to do with weak motors... weak rods. this motors internals stacks up right with the calibers and srts. ive seen to many come down, and heard too much of the discussion of ours side by side. this is a tuning issue and a fuel issue. and that is a fact. you proved it. ron proved it. you logged a shitton of miles driving a certain way, adding fuel with the diode, monitoring knock like crazy.... the motor could have taken even more up top than you gave it. in the end it still might have blown... but it wouldnt have been because it was "weak".

i asked why di doesnt work with pt? how come the audi guys/vw guys/ford/chevy/bmw/mazda...none of them seem to share toyotas answer. DI and pt not working is the biggest joke ive heard.

Randy my motor made a whole 346whp, and it didnt blow because it made a whole 32x wtq. Tq blows motor, not whp. We dont have the breathing to make power up top, so they blow down low where we have tq. aka a weak motor not only in the rods department, but in the ability to carry out power.

[socks]

so your turbos are stuck at 540. (90whp/cyl)

our fueling is stuck at 350. (87.5whp/cyl)

your not that far off, you've got 2 extra injectors worth of fuel. what happens if someone throws a huge turbo on it and finds out no matter how big they go they only make 550whp?

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by Speed3shon so your turbos are stuck at 540. (90whp/cyl) our fueling is stuck at 350. (87.5whp/cyl) your not that far off, you've got 2 extra injectors worth of fuel. what happens if someone throws a huge turbo on it and finds out no matter how big they go they only make 550whp?

they're out of fuel at 540, and even before that. Comparing engines based on cylinder and displacement is like comparing performance cars based on price. I can make a notch run 9s for alot less then i can make a bimmer or mazda run 9s. Who cares about how much power per cylinder the bmw makes compared to a mazda.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Target:STi i think you nailed it with this one. well to me it seems pretty apparent like i said before. DCR will be able to do great things for you if youre willing to part with a whole lot of cash. for those of us stuck in the middle, we're shit out of luck. basically here are the options: 1. buy an MS3/6, leave it stock, slight chance of blowing it, run high 13s low 14s 2. bolt on a few things, good chance of blowing it, run mid to low 13s 3. add a few more things, run high 12's, put your name on Darksun's list 4. buy $15k worth of stuff from DCR and run 9's safely i can't really get excited about that.

There is a better middle ground but the platform needs to mature. The MS3 would never take off like an EVO or Mopar SRT-4 because it's too new and people haven't pushed the limits yet. In the next few years as it gets more attention you will see more cars running safer and producing better results.

I know guys that ran 25psi and close to 400whp out of 1.6 and 1.8 litre engines with cast rods for 10k miles. Yes, they eventually blew, but so will the caliber that's making 500+whp on the stock block. Any motor making that much power will need more frequent rebuilds. However, the development of these people trickles down to the masses and helps everyone. And their success stories, resonate with the community and all of a sudden the platform has a different image.

Hang in there, a better middle ground will be found and it will be a combination of better understanding, better tuning, and better parts.