LTA Intercooler Concept Thread

[J-Liss]

Yo guys, so i have been working on my LTA Custom Concept for some time now, trying to get it as efficient as possible, my previous setup was not working so well, (pics to come) and was being owned by a stock TMIC as far as cooling was concerned, But now i have changed a couple key components and hope to change that around...soo..

This thread everyone who is trying or has a LTA setup, post up your setups and some WOT logs for comparison to Ambient to Boost temp. On my old setup i was seeing on a 70 degree day i got to 180 degrees but then found out i leaked all the water out, i filled it with water and next run, it dropped down to 140, still to high for me.

So, post pics of the setup,

What parts you used, what pump, what size piping etc, im going to post up mine this WED with it all complete.

@BlueStreak
@MATT DAMOND
@Erich

Keep the tags coming.

[BlueStreak]

Here's my L2A setup.


Attached is a datalog of some hard driving that was done right after the new setup was installed. Some qualifiers about this datalog:
- No coolant reservoir (stay tuned for an update)
- RPM wasn't logged (oops!)
- This is on a "limp-mode" tune I ran until I installed this new setup.
- The MAF wasn't yet calibrated. I just added 54% to a SRI cal and took the car out for a drive.
- This datalog was started after about 3-4 mins of hard driving.
- "Intake Temp" PID is actually boosted air temperature pre-intercooler (note location of MAF). "Boosted Air Temperature" is boosted air temperature post-intercooler.
- Meth was turned off.

So, this datalog doesn't show BATs vs. IATs but shows the L2As effectiveness. You'll notice that when logged IATs (BATs pre intercooler) are cool, BATs are more or less the same. As logged IATs (BATs pre intercooler) get hotter, the delta increases. Eventually, the L2A setup does start to lose its effectiveness.

[xfeejayx]

@silvapain
@phate

[J-Liss]

That's not bad bluestreak, are you also running the Cobra Water pump?

I like the set-up of the ic system, though, alittle curvey, but does allow the air more time to cool before going into the TB. Ive noticed every single LTA setup done on MSF is not at all close to the same, this will be awesome to see everyones setup.

Also, heat exchanger?


I think the location of the MAF should also be on the TB pipe, tunning would be alot easier since the MAF is reading boost air temp before would run less richer, since the pre-MAF is reading air that is not actually going into the motor.

[rfinkle2]

@kmac

[skiptowncat]

Subbed for edukashon!!

[Karmat]

I am interested in this as well as long as it is efficient and doesnt require me to cannibalize my crash bar.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by J-Liss That's not bad bluestreak, are you also running the Cobra Water pump? I like the set-up of the ic system, though, alittle curvey, but does allow the air more time to cool before going into the TB. Ive noticed every single LTA setup done on MSF is not at all close to the same, this will be awesome to see everyones setup. Also, heat exchanger? I think the location of the MAF should also be on the TB pipe, tunning would be alot easier since the MAF is reading boost air temp before would run less richer, since the pre-MAF is reading air that is not actually going into the motor.

I'm running the CXRacing pump on my setup.

Heat exchanger.



If you look back on my build thread, I tried running the MAF after the intercooler and before the TB. It worked but not very well.

Sorry for the short replies. I'm on vacation and am trying to squeeze in replies where I can.

Cheers.

[chuckms6]

ive been thinking about making a thread like this for a while, never got around to it







300 hp core


im using the 600hp kit from frozenboost.com. im using the bilge pump it comes with as im not concerned with extreme cold or corrosion, its cheaper than the cobra, and flows about twice as much. also im curious what size hoses others are running, i use 3/4" hose and i have a 7" fan behind the heat exchanger. i have my system wired to come on with ignition or a switch in the cabin for cooling when the car is off, such as in the pit lanes at the drag strip.

2/21/2012
i switched to the 300hp core

a couple of things ive learned from this:
resevoirs are inefficient and overly complicated. a large radiator with a cap works much better and efficiently as the water is cooled and stored in the same place.

water wetter is very important for efficiency

thermal intake gaskets are very worthwhile. the intake on this engine is just a big heatsink and its important to get that as isolated as possible

heres a 1/4 mile pull and a log with lower boost and temps

[StayBroke]

@BlueStreak, dude ive been wanting to relocate my maf. How is it tuning wise tho and i was going to get a flange welded on my cold pipe to test it.
@rfinkle2

[Spirry]

@bnoon

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by J-Liss Yo guys, so i have been working on my LTA Custom Concept for some time now, trying to get it as efficient as possible, my previous setup was not working so well, (pics to come) and was being owned by a stock TMIC as far as cooling was concerned, But now i have changed a couple key components and hope to change that around...soo.. This thread everyone who is trying or has a LTA setup, post up your setups and some WOT logs for comparison to Ambient to Boost temp. On my old setup i was seeing on a 70 degree day i got to 180 degrees but then found out i leaked all the water out, i filled it with water and next run, it dropped down to 140, still to high for me. So, post pics of the setup, What parts you used, what pump, what size piping etc, im going to post up mine this WED with it all complete. @BlueStreak @MATT DAMOND @Erich Keep the tags coming.

Here are key things to remember,

Size does matter. Do not put a 800 HP core on your 300 HP car. Erich's intercooler only started to become efficient after we hit 550 WHP and at 640 there is a huge difference (he is running a 800 HP core).

Tank size (if you run a tank) makes a huge difference as well. The more cool water you can store for the intercooler the better. But don't make it to big, it can heat soak and cause issues with cooling after a pull at the track or dyno.

Get a good pump. 1 Bosch Cobra pump is good... sometimes two are better. This depends on the distance and amount of water your system holds.

I have datalogs on my lap top but the do not show ambient temps. The dyno was reading 64 to 67 degrees on the day we hit the dyno. The datalogs show temps going all the way down to 72 degrees by the end of a pull.

I hope this helps and if you need to see any pictures of the set up review the big turbo build thread.

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Here are key things to remember, Size does matter. Do not put a 800 HP core on your 300 HP car. Erich's intercooler only started to become efficient after we hit 550 WHP and at 640 there is a huge difference (he is running a 800 HP core). Tank size (if you run a tank) makes a huge difference as well. The more cool water you can store for the intercooler the better. But don't make it to big, it can heat soak and cause issues with cooling after a pull at the track or dyno. Get a good pump. 1 Bosch Cobra pump is good... sometimes two are better. This depends on the distance and amount of water your system holds. I have datalogs on my lap top but the do not show ambient temps. The dyno was reading 64 to 67 degrees on the day we hit the dyno. The datalogs show temps going all the way down to 72 degrees by the end of a pull. I hope this helps and if you need to see any pictures of the set up review the big turbo build thread.

can you elaborate on core efficiency? i have a 600hp core right now that i upgraded from a 300hp core that i got first and thought it wasnt efficient enough. ive made other changes in my system that have increased efficiency since then, should i try putting the 300hp back in?

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by chuckms6 can you elaborate on core efficiency? i have a 600hp core right now that i upgraded from a 300hp core that i got first and thought it wasnt efficient enough. ive made other changes in my system that have increased efficiency since then, should i try putting the 300hp back in?

LTAIC core moves volume based on its HP rating. If the air moves through the intercooler to quick, it will not transfer enough heat into the water in the core. If it moves through to slow, it will heat up the water and cause the cooling efficiency to drop heating up the water and "stacking" the air.

Bigger is not always better when it comes to LTAIC's. When we build Erich's set up the goal was 500 + WHP. That core was right at the limit (to big) for his goals. Now that we have upgraded the turbo making more power, the core is really starting to shine.

With Air to Air units you have a 40 to 50% margin before you loose cooling efficiency, LTAIC set ups you have a much smaller window of usefulness from the core.

Hope this helps.

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE LTAIC core moves volume based on its HP rating. If the air moves through the intercooler to quick, it will not transfer enough heat into the water in the core. If it moves through to slow, it will heat up the water and cause the cooling efficiency to drop heating up the water and "stacking" the air. Bigger is not always better when it comes to LTAIC's. When we build Erich's set up the goal was 500 + WHP. That core was right at the limit (to big) for his goals. Now that we have upgraded the turbo making more power, the core is really starting to shine. With Air to Air units you have a 40 to 50% margin before you loose cooling efficiency, LTAIC set ups you have a much smaller window of usefulness from the core. Hope this helps.

helps a lot and makes perfect sense. i guess ive got a project for tomorrow lol

[J-Liss]

Man this is really good stuff. Any logs from erichs setup I been wanting to see that for some time.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by J-Liss Man this is really good stuff. Any logs from erichs setup I been wanting to see that for some time.

Logs yes, logs with IAT... no.

Sorry.

[06Speed6]

My L/A uses the TT i/c core and im not sure what its rated at. The heat exchanger I am using is actually an enormous nascar dual pass oil cooler that is larger than the radiator. I am running 3/4" hose and the Cobra pump. I finally got all the air out of the system and I am working to tune it so I dont really have any good logs yet.

I need to do a tb coolant bypass and install my im thermal gaskets. I think installing a fan will help alot also.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by chudson91 @BlueStreak, dude ive been wanting to relocate my maf. How is it tuning wise tho and i was going to get a flange welded on my cold pipe to test it. @rfinkle2

I don't want to thread jack, but Bluestreak has a build thread that is very well documented, and we can work from that.

I don't think that there would be too much advantage on our setups, but let's look into it.

[J-Liss]

Yea i have noticed if you have Air pockets in the system it will Not be efficient at all, i was told to not get air pockets, that when filling the ic system to tilt the heat exchanger down at like a 90 degree angle then fill it up. or just keep letting pressure build up and open your top and POP, water goes everywhere like mine lol, had to do that a few times before i got all the air pockets out.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by J-Liss Yea i have noticed if you have Air pockets in the system it will Not be efficient at all, i was told to not get air pockets, that when filling the ic system to tilt the heat exchanger down at like a 90 degree angle then fill it up. or just keep letting pressure build up and open your top and POP, water goes everywhere like mine lol, had to do that a few times before i got all the air pockets out.

Add a remote filler neck in the system to get all of the air pockets out = very easy, especially if you leave enough slack in the hoses to lift it up to the highest point when filling. Here's the remote filler cap I used Remote Radiator Filler Cap.

The Cobra pump will last a LOT longer in any climate and it's only $10 more than the bilge pump from siliconeintakes if you buy it from CXRacing instead cxracing.com: Intercooler SuperCharger water Coolant Pump SVT Mustang.

Going on 2 years and about 20K miles on my daily driven air/water without ever even needing to top it off (pulled the cap, still full each time). With the intake gasket from PTP and my system, I've never logged BAT's more than 15 degrees above ambient at cruise and usually see a spike under hard boost/load of 20-40 degrees and they quickly settle. I'm also using a fairly small stock H/E from a Cobra Mustang.

[Spirry]

I thought HPFPUPGRADE was banned...

[Celestspeed3]

I was talking with a fluids engineer who's a friend of my brother about the different intercooler setups.

He was telling me that the biggest downfall of the L2A exchangers on a car is that you are still limited by the airflow over the heat exchanger. He was saying that for automotive applications the biggest constriction is the bumper cutout since you can't get more air through an OEM type of bumper.

This is the main reason why most road race teams go with large front mounts. There is less to worry about and generally they are lighter. He was explaining to me that you need to run the biggest heat exchanger between the fluid and the atmosphere as possible. This will prevent the inevitable heat soak that will occur between the turbo outlet air and the fluid you are running. The temperature change must be the largest possible to have maximum heat absorption.

I asked him if different sizes of cores should matter on the turbo side and he told me not really. He mentioned that because some of the cores are meant for bigger turbo applications and that they are more concerned about keeping the flow restriction (pressure drop) down that it may not transfer as much heat as it could if you were to run a smaller core with a higher pressure drop to absorb more heat. This comes as a double edged sword, if you increase the flow you decrease the heat transfer, if you decrease the flow you increase the heat transfer but you increase the output temperature of the turbo. There were too many variables here depending on the individuals setup but he told me just run the most reasonable sized core you can fit on the car. Since he said it will depend more on the heat exchanger that you will be using between the atmosphere and the fluid.

The topic of heat exchanger orientation came up and he was telling me that although the air passes through the heat exchanger or radiator core that it needs somewhere to go to make room for more fresh air coming into the system. He mentioned that it might be beneficial to have the heat exchanger mounted on an angle since this will allow the hot air more surface air to raise off of the heat exchanger in braking zones and sitting in traffic. A fan will also help to but now you are adding cost and complexity when you could just tilt the heat exchanger. This is why most race teams run a V-mount intercooler and radiator setup.

He was saying since my Mazdaspeed hoods are vented it helps but doesn't solve the problem. He mentioned that we should raise the hood at the mounting points and remove the weather seal there to help get the heat out. Since the hood is vented anyway he doesn't see any reason why there would be a weather seal there in the first place.

Then it was on to different fluids and in the end we came to the conclusion that water will give you the quickest raise and fall of temperatures but a full glycol system will allow you to absorb more for a given temperature. Because the temperature doesn't change as much with the same amount of heat the delta T (engineering term he used for temperature difference) will remain high and allow for a more efficient system overall while getting away with a small heat exchanger.

He was telling me for best results we should test the type of fluid once the system is assembled and working with water, glycol and a 50/50 mix of water and glycol. After a few lapping days maybe 2 per fluid choice you can determine which is the better fluid to use. I'm sure the Mustang guys will have this already figured out.


I hope this helped shed some light on liquid to air setups because I didn't find anything very helpful on google.

[J-Liss]

o god, under cruise my temps are stupid close to ambient, WOT, is what really matters, if you can stay within 50 degrees of ambient temp, i would like to call that efficient.

Also anyone running fans on their system?

If so do you have them pushing air, or pulling air?

Cry02 kit is my next purchase for this if system isnt to my liking.

I was also explaining this to the guys earlyier, AIR FLOW IS EVERYTHING to the Heat exchanger since this is what's cooling the water, its NEEDS to get as much air flow as possible, i just re-did mine, trimmed the bumper alittle and it is SLAMMED into the grill and i mean SLAMMED looks great too, had to remove the grill portion of it as well. Im going to have wings made to block off the sides to direct more air-flow to the heat exchanger. I have no play room from top of the heat exchanger to the bottom that air can only go into heat exchanger, my fittings should be here wed or thur, im going to install this weekend and so some WOT logs.



Everyone post pics of their setups, engine bay, water pump location, heat exchanger and im going to redo the first post and in order post everyones setup.

[J-Liss]

@Dano

[chuckms6]

i went ahead and threw in the 300 hp core and took some more pics. took it for a short drive and it seems to be a tad more efficient, but ill have to drive it longer. definitely more room in the engine bay though lol. i updated my first post with the new pics and more details about my system

[06Speed6]

I am totally adding a fan to mine. I think its going to be a pusher on the a/c condensor.

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by bnoon Add a remote filler neck in the system to get all of the air pockets out = very easy, especially if you leave enough slack in the hoses to lift it up to the highest point when filling. Here's the remote filler cap I used Remote Radiator Filler Cap. The Cobra pump will last a LOT longer in any climate and it's only $10 more than the bilge pump from siliconeintakes if you buy it from CXRacing instead cxracing.com: Intercooler SuperCharger water Coolant Pump SVT Mustang. Going on 2 years and about 20K miles on my daily driven air/water without ever even needing to top it off (pulled the cap, still full each time). With the intake gasket from PTP and my system, I've never logged BAT's more than 15 degrees above ambient at cruise and usually see a spike under hard boost/load of 20-40 degrees and they quickly settle. I'm also using a fairly small stock H/E from a Cobra Mustang.

that pump looks different from this one cobra pump on frozenboost.com

that one has a lower GPH and higher price, and ive seen the same one on cxracing.com before. the one you posted looks like a far better deal.

[meicalnissyen]

Yes, the IM holds heat and contributes to high BAT

Ive used a frozen booost IC for 2 years, it has been a pain, you are adding complexity
i chose the large inline model, and while I have a 23 inch path from turbo to TB, it still sits over the valve cover. someone on here went to the trouble of remoting the battery and ecu, but have a very nice IC install

the baitwell pump they sell has a bigger brother, i added one of them, it is still a fail prone part. a good waterpump is a key part of the L2A setup. I am likely a bit shy of heatexchanger size, but that big hunk of aluminum is xfering heat to the bat sensor that is downstream of the IC

soon,
my MEPP will run out, and my tax return will arrive


I will then donate, and start reading several hours worth of BT posts, then begin aquiring some carefully chosen parts
and go thru the process of educating myself on tuning this platform

at least I dont have to reinvent the wheel

[J-Liss]

this is my setup, it has not been prettyfied that will happen in 2 weeks and ill post final pics but just so you see.

I remoted battery to the trunk and ecu to tranny mount, i will be making a cover for it this spring.

[MS6FL]

Good to see this thread. Just posted this......My BATs.....High?

I have the TT L2A system. Post pics soon......

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by J-Liss o god, under cruise my temps are stupid close to ambient, WOT, is what really matters, if you can stay within 50 degrees of ambient temp, i would like to call that efficient. Also anyone running fans on their system? If so do you have them pushing air, or pulling air? Cry02 kit is my next purchase for this if system isnt to my liking. I was also explaining this to the guys earlyier, AIR FLOW IS EVERYTHING to the Heat exchanger since this is what's cooling the water, its NEEDS to get as much air flow as possible, i just re-did mine, trimmed the bumper alittle and it is SLAMMED into the grill and i mean SLAMMED looks great too, had to remove the grill portion of it as well. Im going to have wings made to block off the sides to direct more air-flow to the heat exchanger. I have no play room from top of the heat exchanger to the bottom that air can only go into heat exchanger, my fittings should be here wed or thur, im going to install this weekend and so some WOT logs. Everyone post pics of their setups, engine bay, water pump location, heat exchanger and im going to redo the first post and in order post everyones setup.

Its funny, no one runs a tank anymore. If you want a fresh supply of cool water... run a 1 gallon supply tank. This way you always have a resivior of cool water ready for WOT pulls.

For street use I always run a holding tank.

[06Speed6]

My heat exchanger holds almost a gallon by itself. My bats still rise over a wot run, I think I just need a second pump to move more water through the system faster.

[J-Liss]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 My heat exchanger holds almost a gallon by itself. My bats still rise over a wot run, I think I just need a second pump to move more water through the system faster.

not tech, if you pump the water to fast, you wont be able to let it cool enough, you kinda want it like a stream of water.

Lets see some pics of your setup john.

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by J-Liss not tech, if you pump the water to fast, you wont be able to let it cool enough, you kinda want it like a stream of water. Lets see some pics of your setup john.

thats what i was thinking, if the water moves too fast then it doesnt have time to absorb a lot of heat. theres surely a happy medium somewhere, and maybe thats why some people say the cobra pump is better than the bilge pump.

[J-Liss]

i had the blige pump...its garbage, i just threw it out, have you ever taken it apart and look at the propeller and the housing, the cobra is used on the s/c cobalt ss, the cobra, saturn ion etc etc.

I was thinking the placement of the water makes a difference too, is the pump Pushing, or pulling, apprently the cobra not matter what position it lays always works as efficient, but i have a feeling gravity plays a key role in this.

i also think that heat exchangers are the key component in every situation. I will show you guys what i mean, i slammed my heat exchanger in the lower grill, removed the lower grill and am making wings to block off the sides so ALL the air hits the Heat exchanger, im thinking of either throwing some fans (pulling) air into and out the heat exchanger, therefore, pulling air into the H.E. and at the same time removing heat soak when your sitting.

At this point im thinking the only way to truely get close to ambient temps with a LTA is by having a resevouir for Dry ice, or a resevoir for some WOT runs filled will ice and water, we did a test on my buddies mustang on his LTA, mocked up a tank filled it with 80% ice and the rest water, his temps were 10 degrees ABOVE AMBIENT at WOT and was able to run 5 more lbs of boost because of it.

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by J-Liss i had the blige pump...its garbage, i just threw it out, have you ever taken it apart and look at the propeller and the housing, the cobra is used on the s/c cobalt ss, the cobra, saturn ion etc etc. I was thinking the placement of the water makes a difference too, is the pump Pushing, or pulling, apprently the cobra not matter what position it lays always works as efficient, but i have a feeling gravity plays a key role in this. i also think that heat exchangers are the key component in every situation. I will show you guys what i mean, i slammed my heat exchanger in the lower grill, removed the lower grill and am making wings to block off the sides so ALL the air hits the Heat exchanger, im thinking of either throwing some fans (pulling) air into and out the heat exchanger, therefore, pulling air into the H.E. and at the same time removing heat soak when your sitting. At this point im thinking the only way to truely get close to ambient temps with a LTA is by having a resevouir for Dry ice, or a resevoir for some WOT runs filled will ice and water, we did a test on my buddies mustang on his LTA, mocked up a tank filled it with 80% ice and the rest water, his temps were 10 degrees ABOVE AMBIENT at WOT and was able to run 5 more lbs of boost because of it.

my pump has been working fine for over a year now. im sure at some point ill need a cobra but for the price point its awesome.

the 300 hp kit i got at first came with a small 7" fan that im using now. it doesnt cover the entire heat exchanger but it is mounted pretty much center with the crash bar behing the h.e. and it is on whenever the pump is on. works pretty well.

with the 300 hp core back in idle temps are up to 40 more than ambient, but it pretty much stays there under wot, which is what i want, because with the 600 it would always be around 15 over ambient and at the end of a 3rd gear pull it would still end up higher than the 300 hp does now. so i guess @HPFPUPGRADE was right, the core is matched for power output.

last thought for the day; has anyone considered a flow restrictor after the core to slow the water down so it can absorb more heat in the core? or is that even a good idea?

[J-Liss]

One issue i can see of that, is you have the pump pushing 800 gallons per hour, and you restricting the flow could over time damage the motor on the pump if back pressure is built up.

If you want cooler temps, look for a 3 pass heat exchanger, i have been considering this as well.

i was looking over the pump you posted on cx racing (cxracing.com: Intercooler SuperCharger water Coolant Pump SVT Mustang)

Now i noticed on the design of the bosch one i received it kinda has a turbo design too it, actually spiriling the water and pressuring it out, i wonder if this is a key component to their design.


Also, i was also considering, would placement and location of the water pump be a key note, i was told the pump should be pushing more then pulling for it to pump efficiently, with gravity and how the lines are routed, i could see this being true.

[MS6FL]

Here is one for now....yeah she's dirty. Ill post more this weekend when i take bumper off.

[Celestspeed3]

@06Speed6

You may want to install a water temperature gauge at the coolant exit of the heat exchanger. If you see a rise in the fluid temperature perportional to the rise in BAT's then you determine if your system needs modification. You already have a large heat exchanger, maybe it's not getting enough air. I don't know if the velocity of your fluid through the system will make a large enough change. Do you know what the capacity of your total system is and the volume flow of your pump? If you do you could compare the rise in BAT with the raise in water temp and see if you are being limited by flow.

Lets say a WOT run is 15 seconds, with a 4 gpm pump you will not have enough time to have the hot fluid leaving the heat exchanger to make its way back to the intercooler. This is why I don't think there is a flow problem. There are many mustang threads on their forums that increasing the flow of the pump units didn't do much for them in regards to cooling. Do you have anyway to measure you BAT between the turbo and the intercooler?

I would recommend to do some data collection before spending money on something that may not fix your issue.



Edit: MS6FL how do you find that alumium bracket does at insolating the intercooler from the engine heat?