Mazdaspeed6 for road racing

[jroc]

yes, but you will need to work in fender flares, front and back. i ran TRMotorsport C3's all around, 17x9 +48 with 255 NT05s, then switches to RS3s. up front i needed a small spacer to avoid rubbing on the control arm. the rear was just fine with an aggressive roll all around.



WITHOUT spacer, tire is rubbing on upper control arm on the front.




WITH 5mm spacer

[r3d]

I dont know if you did it or not, but I would replace all the bushings in the front suspension at least

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by r3d I dont know if you did it or not, but I would replace all the bushings in the front suspension at least

Will hopefully be running coilovers in the next few months.

[r3d]

talking bout lower/upper control arm, depending on the mileage possibly lower ball joints as well. The proper way to build car is from ground up, especially if its for a track.

[Code Monkey]

I finally had a chance to log an entire HPDE session, those interested can see the attached log. Discarding lap 1 (warm up lap) and lap 7 (cool down lap), from my rough calculations, times for laps 2-6 were

2:27
2:29
2:23
2:24
2:16

which is fucking slow except a half decent 2:16. One lap is 2.9 miles. It was a rainy weekend so I was not pushing the car 100 percent, in dry conditions I could maybe do consistent 2:13 laps. Dropping to 2:03 would be awesome, crazy fast guys can do 1:53.

Also attached are graphs showing speed and boost. Negative boost (vacuum) is set to zero so the graphs are more compact and easier to read. Delete the first 226 rows, then the rows of data used for graphs 2-6 are, respectively,

1457-2617
2618-3793
3794-4924
4925-6062
6063-7135

I made the graphs long and the best way to view them is to open them in a pdf reader and zoom in.

Each graph starts when I come off the straightaway into turn 1 and downshift into 4th.

Looking at any graph towards the end, you can see when I slow down to about 50 mph and hit the straightaway. There is a kink in the mph line when I shift from 4th into 5th, and at that very moment I get a consistent boost spike, anywhere from 20.01 to 21.08. My tune is targeting 19 psi max, @atvfreek; is this something we should be worried about? The spike is momentary, it is gone almost instantly. There are three more boost spike spots, I hit all three in the Boost_lap4 graph.

You can figure out each log watching this video, start about 0:10.

TWS CCW

TWS CCW

The difference is that the guy goes through the first turn doing 87-90 mph and I do it at 68-72 mph.

Back on topic, the good news is that KR is minimal. When you look at all the KR, you can see that I have some high KR but...

. tab KR
      Knock |
 Retard (°) |      Freq.     Percent        Cum.
------------+-----------------------------------
          0 |      8,008       96.64       96.64
        .35 |         67        0.81       97.45
         .7 |         32        0.39       97.84
       1.05 |         26        0.31       98.15
        1.4 |         16        0.19       98.35
       1.75 |          8        0.10       98.44
        2.1 |          5        0.06       98.50
       2.45 |          7        0.08       98.59
        2.8 |          1        0.01       98.60
       3.15 |          1        0.01       98.61
        3.5 |          1        0.01       98.62
       3.85 |          5        0.06       98.68
        4.2 |         16        0.19       98.88
       4.55 |         20        0.24       99.12
        4.9 |         18        0.22       99.34
       5.25 |         18        0.22       99.55
        5.6 |         18        0.22       99.77
       5.95 |         19        0.23      100.00
------------+-----------------------------------
      Total |      8,286      100.00

... it occurs mostly under vacuum, when you tabulate KR for boost only, it looks much nicer...

. tab KR if Boost > 0
      Knock |
 Retard (°) |      Freq.     Percent        Cum.
------------+-----------------------------------
          0 |      2,920       94.87       94.87
        .35 |         53        1.72       96.59
         .7 |         28        0.91       97.50
       1.05 |         18        0.58       98.08
        1.4 |         13        0.42       98.51
       1.75 |          8        0.26       98.77
        2.1 |          4        0.13       98.90
       2.45 |          6        0.19       99.09
       3.85 |          3        0.10       99.19
        4.2 |          5        0.16       99.35
       4.55 |          8        0.26       99.61
        4.9 |         10        0.32       99.94
       5.25 |          2        0.06      100.00
------------+-----------------------------------
      Total |      3,078      100.00

... and when you tabulate KR over stock boost levels, there is nothing to worry about.

. tab KR if Boost > 15.6
      Knock |
 Retard (°) |      Freq.     Percent        Cum.
------------+-----------------------------------
          0 |        531       85.23       85.23
        .35 |         27        4.33       89.57
         .7 |         20        3.21       92.78
       1.05 |         15        2.41       95.18
        1.4 |         12        1.93       97.11
       1.75 |          8        1.28       98.39
        2.1 |          4        0.64       99.04
       2.45 |          6        0.96      100.00
------------+-----------------------------------
      Total |        623      100.00

Kudos to @atvfreek; for a solid tune, now let's address those boost spikes.

[SBspeed3]

Originally Posted by Hapa88 Mod list looks pretty good. You'll see your times really come down if you upgrade your tires to Extreme Performance Category tires (like Dunlop Star Spec, Federal 595RSR, Bridgestone RE-11, Hankook RS-3, etc). Also with the increase in grip, you might want to start considering brake cooling. I did the Porsche GT3 brake deflectors and it made a pretty big improvement for me on the track. Might want to look into it. Brake cooling?

just a quick response...I have the federal rsr's as my street tires and absolutely love them, even though they could be used ontrack.....I run housier r6 255 40 17 on track what a difference....Cant beat the price on the federals though.....

[Code Monkey]

Another update to myself.

Decided to get some "small fish" mods out of the way while waiting for more expensive mods to come.

Installed:

HTP battery tray
Braille B2015 battery
SURE charge tubes

Awaiting:

SURE PMM & TMM (track grade)
3.5" intake with 3" MAF (probably HTP)
cp-e DP with hi-flow cat
cp-e sigle-exit CBE
Stratified EBCV
3-bar MAP
Denso ITV22
BNR S3
anohter round of freektune

Big ticket items coming soon:

FCM coilovers
racing seats + harnesses + custom half-cage

Will also switch to Hankooks RS3 235/45/17 once the current tires wear out, probably another 2-3 HPDE weekends. I have 13 HPDE events planned this year, may start doing some open track days in the fall.

[jroc]

damn, i wanted those 6ULRS on my ms6 but they were too expensive for me at the time.

id step up those 235s though. drop some more time. thats a bit of a stretch for 235s on a 9

255s fit quite nicely.

[Neverlift]

With that soft RS3 sidewall, and the weight of the car, I could see those 235's being the ticket for that particular tire.

[Code Monkey]

I got the ULR's used from Erich, I think 949Racing stopped making them in 17", they only link to 15" ULRs so yeah, I got lucky.

I may go for 245/40 or 245/45 tires but many guys at the track told me that 255s would fit but would be too wide for good handling? Here's what the current tires look like on the rim, they are 235/45/17 Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetrics.

[Code Monkey]

So the plan was to get upgraded suspension, then racing seats and cage, than go for a bit more power. The reality is that the plan is happening in reverse.

After switching to the cp-e single-exit CBE, the car started smoking like crazy at idle, so I said fuck it and it is time for the BNR, lookie here.

The coilovers are coming but they are coming slow, and it looks like the cage and racing seats will be done first.

I am getting faster at the track and it is time to go for lower treadwear tires. I grabbed a set of used RS3's for $180 in 255/40/17, perfect time and price to test whether they will be too wide or not. I also have a brand new set of Direzza II's in 245/45/17, here's some pictures comparing the two sets. I will also try the new g-force Rivals and see which ones feel 'best' for me. I really need another set of rims.

Last time I was promoted to the yellow group (3rd out of 4) with the Drivers Edge, and an instructor with the local group told me too that I was ready for the yellows with them but this was the last session of the weekend so I could not get a check ride.

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by LSPowered You definitely will ...

I am already planning an engine build + big turbo, most likely sometime next year.

[xI Leveler Ix]

In the OP:

Originally Posted by Code Monkey I do not think I will be upgrading the turbo, manifolds, etc, I may even just do a 2.5" race pipe and not bother with the 3" DP). Right now it looks like power mods will be "year two" upgrades.

Now:

Originally Posted by Code Monkey I am already planning an engine build + big turbo, most likely sometime next year.

MSF has another victim.

:You_Rock_Em oticon:

[Code Monkey]

Yeah, I curse and bless the day I went to the race track the first time.

[BlackBettyMS6]

Avoid 255s for the track ... 235s are too skinny but 255s are wrong from the track. 240 or 245 is where you need to be at.

I cant say this enough. IF YOU HAVE SHITTY OR AVERAGE TIRES YOU WILL SUFFER. It is a safety issue as well. Your performance is only as good as your traction and driver mod. Spend a the money on the tires and get some of the mods later ...except mounts get those first.

If you want to drive track this is the order of mods
1. TIRES, AP, RMM, Side Mounts, Rear Diff Upgrade (REQUIRED), HPFP, SRI, Front & Rear Sway upgrades (REQUIRED) & SRI

2. IC, DP, Exhaust and anything else you want.

YOU NEED THE SWAY BAR UPGRADES OR ELSE YOU WILL HAVE SHITTY HANDLING AT HIGH SPEEDS. Cant say this enough. Dont be an ass and make yourself a liability on the track. Invest in stability, traction and the support mods (mounts) before you go power.

[Code Monkey]

Too late, the Hankooks went on the car this morning. I bought them used so they will only last 1 or 2 weekends. This is what 255/40/17 look like on the car. I do think 245's will fit better. The car is stripped inside a bit, almost 300 lbs down from the stock weight, thus the stupid fender gap.

Fat Cat Motorsports told me not to upgrade the sway bars, they prefer to use stiffer spring rates. It is very likely that I will run without the RSB at all, we'll see once I get the unicorn coilovers.

Otherwise I have all the mods in your list covered.

[BlackBettyMS6]

Im going to say their idiots. If you are doing highspeed driving with tight turns nothing can compensate
for a lack of a rear sway or not upgrading. They prob like it because it feels more like 'real' driving *cough*. If youre on a skid pad, even with progressives you havr superior control with larger sways

Im not going on my experience rather what i wad taught in BMW track driving. Certain cars MAY have less diffetence but we have a long, wide and heavy body...

[Coaststarlight]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey Yeah, I curse and bless the day I went to the race track the first time.

Don't we all


And as for what your getting at with the Stock sways/no sways concept I've heard of this before, its used in Tarmac Rally set ups, basically the idea is to give the car's rear it's rotation with a stiff spring/shock setup instead of the sway bar, the benefit is that during hard cornering, you still get the rotation you need but without lifting the inside rear wheel via a stiff sway, so you maximize traction but still have rotation, I was hopeing someone would look into this on a Speed6, It may be very much worth the effort... or way off! but I'd really like to see what will work best on this car, Good work

[Code Monkey]

Got an alignment today, the previous one was chewing the insides of the front tires too much. The current specs are:

Front, camber -2.0, toe out 1/16" per side
Rear, camber, -1.5, zero toe

The "before measurements" toe got a bit off from the previous alignment, I had zero toe in the rear and 1/32" toe out in the front, I am not sure how fast an alignment is compromised.

And here's the BNR VD logs before I hit the road course, afterwards we will see if the tune needs any further adjustment.

[Code Monkey]

Went to the track today, it took some time to adjust to the Hankook RS3 tires (I ran street tires before exclusively) but holy shit how much more grip they provide! My first impression was 'hahahhaahahahhhahhahhaahaaa!!!!!!!' It is also much easier to catch the car once it starts sliding, a quick flick of the steering wheel and the grip is back.

The BNR is fantastic for the track, I was hitting 130 mph on the straightaway compared to about 123 on the k04. And less and less cars could pull away from me. I am still not going as fast as I could -- it takes some time to get adjusted to a bigger turbo. Before I knew I was going 'fast' as the k04 was spinning its head off, now the BNR just keeps on pulling so it is a bit deceiving because you do not feel that you are going as fast as you are which can lead to a nice spin out in a turn (happened once today).

The only problem today was my BATS. It was 82 degrees outside, IATs were about 100, and my BATs skyrocketed to 195!!! @atvfreek; @Lex; is meth in my future? The attached graph (pdf, download and zoom in) shows IATs and BATs for the k04 (left graph) and IATs and BATs for the BNR (right graph). The spikes are when I mash the pedal on the straigthaway, coming out of the turn at about 60mph the BATs are 160 and go all the way up to 195 at the end of the straightaway with the car going about 130mph.

I get KR once BATs start hitting +160, and especially +180. The log for the right hand side is attached as well. The BATs in the latter part go down as I hit the straightaway and the car would not shift into 5th so I coasted and went around the track in limp mode, pitted in, and shut the car down.

The alignment from above is fantastic, with the 1/16 toe out in front, the car is super stable breaking from 130mph, before the front would wiggle.

[Code Monkey]

Today I ghetto mounted the AP to the dashboard and would lift and maintain the speed when the BATs hit 160. KR was gone completely, but I was slow as shit. Paging @atvfreek;

. tab KR
      Knock |
 Retard (°) |      Freq.     Percent        Cum.
------------+-----------------------------------
          0 |     11,000       99.42       99.42
        .35 |         27        0.24       99.67
         .7 |         15        0.14       99.80
       1.05 |          9        0.08       99.88
        1.4 |          6        0.05       99.94
       1.75 |          3        0.03       99.96
        2.1 |          2        0.02       99.98
       2.45 |          1        0.01       99.99
       3.15 |          1        0.01      100.00
------------+-----------------------------------
      Total |     11,064      100.00

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

meth would help under boosting but since you track i would think you would be better off going fmic at least. with you pushing car so hard the heat will inevitably heat up the tmic and heatsoak

[Code Monkey]

But a FMIC raises the ECT by about 20 degrees.... Justin will add more magic to my tune and I will test a revised map in two weeks.

[phate]

Do you still have the underhood ducting and shroud on the TMIC?

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by phate Do you still have the underhood ducting and shroud on the TMIC?

Yes to both.

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey But a FMIC raises the ECT by about 20 degrees.... Justin will add more magic to my tune and I will test a revised map in two weeks.

truth but there are ways to combat that too. some have made a piece behind the top grill that diverts air down to the radiator. Speed6 FMIC Coolant Temp Fix Discussion

you could also do what superskates did which is to put in a new fan controller that tells the radiator fan to turn on at like 200 or so.
HOW-TO: Auxiliary Fan controller

[Code Monkey]

Another solution is to jump on e85. The nearest e85 gas station is 60 miles away, I could get 4-6 5-gallon jugs that should last me a while considering my car is primarily driven on the track.

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

i could be wrong but i believe that e85 primarily helps reduce EGTs. It shouldn't affect ECTs much and I believe it still does help BATs a bit but I still don't think it will be sufficient. I would sometimes hit 200 in really hot/humid days here with e85 and my ETS tmic. granted this was on my old k04 and pushing it hard but i still feel like you will run into the same issue. the physics behind a tmic and the main flaw that the engine heat will radiate up into the tmic. i'm sure meth and e85 will help. i just don't know how much! i dont specifically know anyone here that tracks but i hope that they can chime in. I still think your best bet is fmic(with meth as an added bonus) so you can rid of the heatsoak
@atvfreek; @phate; drop some knowledge on us?

[phate]

Originally Posted by fivefingerdeathpunch i could be wrong but i believe that e85 primarily helps reduce EGTs. It shouldn't affect ECTs much and I believe it still does help BATs a bit but I still don't think it will be sufficient. I would sometimes hit 200 in really hot/humid days here with e85 and my ETS tmic. granted this was on my old k04 and pushing it hard but i still feel like you will run into the same issue. the physics behind a tmic and the main flaw that the engine heat will radiate up into the tmic. i'm sure meth and e85 will help. i just don't know how much! i dont specifically know of anyone here that tracks but i hope that they can chime in. I still think your best bet is fmic(with meth as an added bonus) so you can rid of the heatsoak

E85 shouldn't make a dent in EGT's. It decreases the intake charge temp massively, but it happens in the cylinder, so you won't see it in BAT's. The extra cooling and octane is what will allow him to run the car at hot temps without knock issues.

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by phate E85 shouldn't make a dent in EGT's. It decreases the intake charge temp massively, but it happens in the cylinder, so you won't see it in BAT's. The extra cooling and octane is what will allow him to run the car at hot temps without knock issues.

I see. If that's the case, e85 may be the cheapest solution. No additional hardware, just a headache with carrying extra jugs premixed e85 and 93.

What is the best mix, 20/80, 30/70, 50/50? I would buy 8 5-gallon jugs, fill each jug with x amount of 93, top off with e85, and call it a day.

Although first I will run the revised 93 gas map and see how it goes.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey I see. If that's the case, e85 may be the cheapest solution. No additional hardware, just a headache with carrying extra jugs premixed e85 and 93. What is the best mix, 20/80, 30/70, 50/50? I would buy 8 5-gallon jugs, fill each jug with x amount of 93, top off with e85, and call it a day. Although first I will run the revised 93 gas map and see how it goes.

You would actually be able to run a couple gallons with your current tune. It doesn't alter AFR's until ~3+ gallons in the tank, but you'll gain the needed octane with just that little bit.

You can, of course, tune for it...but I caution running high power (especially through timing) on the stock block on road courses. The risk may be high for the ring lands with the extra heat. That's how it's looking now, anyway.

[Code Monkey]

I am not power hungry, at the current level I would not know what to do with extra power. Knock protection is all I need at the moment. The car is already plenty powerful for this track, and this is one of the fastest tracks in the country.

[6ixof1]

Originally Posted by BlackBettyMS6 Im going to say their idiots. If you are doing highspeed driving with tight turns nothing can compensate for a lack of a rear sway or not upgrading. They prob like it because it feels more like 'real' driving *cough*. If youre on a skid pad, even with progressives you havr superior control with larger sways Im not going on my experience rather what i wad taught in BMW track driving. Certain cars MAY have less diffetence but we have a long, wide and heavy body...

Isn't there an issue with upgraded rear sway bar not fitting properly with the dread diff mount?
I know there's a thread around somewhere...either way a couple of weeks ago I installed the Jugg and Dread and the stock sway was REAL tight. The Whiteline is 24mm and the Corksport is 25mm. I'm not sure what the stocker is.
Corksport said that their rear diff mount will fit with their rear sway but...I have a doubt.

[Code Monkey]

^ Adjustable rear endlinks solve this problem.

[superskaterxes]

do you still have your AC condenser installed?

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes do you still have your AC condenser installed?

Yes I do.

[Ziggo]

You don't need so many jugs, just fill them up with pure E85 don't premix and do a bit of math when filling up. Use a scale to measure the amount of E85 you are putting in the tank.

20 gallons will probably get you through a weekend just fine if there is nowhere close to fill up Saturday night.

Zigatapatalka

[Code Monkey]

Here's a more detailed look at one of the 'peaks' with KR plotted this time as well. I would get one peak per lap.

Here's a tabulation of KR from the graph:

. tab KR
      Knock |
 Retard (°) |      Freq.     Percent        Cum.
------------+-----------------------------------
          0 |        107       56.32       56.32
        .35 |          4        2.11       58.42
         .7 |          5        2.63       61.05
       1.05 |          4        2.11       63.16
        1.4 |          8        4.21       67.37
       1.75 |          9        4.74       72.11
        2.1 |         16        8.42       80.53
       2.45 |         10        5.26       85.79
        2.8 |          4        2.11       87.89
       3.15 |          6        3.16       91.05
        3.5 |          2        1.05       92.11
       3.85 |          2        1.05       93.16
        4.2 |          3        1.58       94.74
       4.55 |          3        1.58       96.32
        4.9 |          3        1.58       97.89
        5.6 |          2        1.05       98.95
       5.95 |          2        1.05      100.00
------------+-----------------------------------
      Total |        190      100.00

Re: adding e85, I was thinking about running until I have 1/4 of the tank left, adding 2.5 gallons of e85, topping off with 93. That would keep the mix at about 16% e85.

I am reading through e85 threads now.

Edit: I see that assuming a 0.7 ethanol content in e85 and a 0.1 ethanol content in 93 gas, I would be running close to 20 percent ethanol: (.7*2.5 + .1*13.5) / 16 = (1.75 + 1.35) / 16 = 3.1 / 16 = .19375 or 19.4% ethanol. If ethanol content of e85 goes up to 0.85, I end up with 21.7% ethanol.

[Ziggo]

Problem is, you don't want to start a session with half a tank or less, so you may need to be able to throw in a smaller amount.

[6ixof1]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey ^ Adjustable rear endlinks solve this problem.

I had the AWR adjustable end links on my Mazda6 S and had a seizing issue in the ball joint. Just the rears the fronts were fine.