Torque Steer Comparison: Fully Mounted vs Stock Mounts

[Cheapspeed]

I've often heard people claim being mounted somehow reduces torque steer.

After I installed my JBR 88/80 trilogy I never noticed a difference in the amount of torque steer my car had.

I was discussing this with @Gr8Speed; after his review and decided to make a comparison video. This is not scientific, but I don't believe it needs to be, the video speaks for itself. @jbmazda6; was kind enough provide video equipment and edit for us and condense 3 runs each into one short clip.
@kevdog; was our install host and present for the video and @El Beaner; was driving the silver genpu while I drove my CB gen1.

We started from a roll in 1st gear and punched it around 3000 rpm's.

Mazdaspeed3 Torque Steer Comparison - YouTube

Mazdaspeed3 Torque Steer Comparison - YouTube

I apologize to @09Speed3Z; for double posting (didn't know the user reviews required to be looked at first), but I wanted to get this up.

[jbmazda6]

While editing the video I had some time to think about this and have a few things to add..

1) @Cheapspeed;'s (genone) car is making more power than @El Beaner; (genpoo) which means he may be targeting higher boost in first allowing the car to torque steer more
2) This is not the same generation Speed3.. could be a difference in many things here
3) IMHO I could not come to a conclusion after watching these videos upwards of 100 times. It looks like @Cheapspeed;'s car has more torque steer but he went WOT closer to the camera by ~50 feet which makes his car look like it veers off quicker but in reality I don't think it does. Just a mini "optical illusion" for lack of better words.

Just some thoughts to keep in mind.

[El Beaner]

Just got to say again great job on the video edit.

As far as the issues, considering the gen 1 and 2 share similar if not the same suspension characteristics the only thing that would affectttorque steer would be the amount of power being produced. Both Cheapspeed and I are running tuned maps (granted he's full etune vs my ots+ tune) but both maps get rid of boost restrictions that Mazda has stock in 1st.

[jack_hammer]

I saw you guys discussing this. So many variables... Tires, tune, power made, etc. and different gens. Not to mention the wear and tear on the car. I think it's a good thought. and good on you for trying to solve a question. I just can't see how they are an equal comparison. I don't think there'd be a huge difference to begin with, so you're dealing with lots of variables that may or may not matter, but in such a small margin for variation, i can't see how this is more than anecdotal.


Sorry fellas

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[JgamB]

If there was a way to completely remove torque steer, I wouldn't do it. I like the sensation, and it's only a nuisance when under hard acceleration over broken pavement, and I haven't driven a car that behaves well in that scenario.

As far as mounts doing anything to reduce it - the geometry should be more static with stiffer mounts as our anchor point on the block for the passenger half shaft should move less. If there is any benefit it's probably minor and likely more apparent on a hard 1-2 shift.

(and my E-Focus mount is still holding up great after ~12K miles )

[Agent_Orange]

Only limpwrists care about torque steer anyway.

[jdmage_mx5]

I would think a video of pre and post install would be more scientific than two different generation/mileage/tires/mods/tunes/drivers/etc. Great video editing though and respect the effort everyone put into it. I personally don't get near as much torque steer fully mounted as I did stock.

[Zdraveca]

Ok i have an idea for a new test.
Line up next to each other and punch it at the same time. If the fully mounted car gets hit by the no mounts car the torque steer is cured a bit if not then torque steer is the same

Sent from Pu

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

The only thing we learned from that video is that, both drivers are dead and the people in the adjacent lanes got f***ed sideways for no good reason at all.

[rolanblack]

if you guys could set it up again as you had it but have a piece of chalk (or something to tagged the ground) taped onto the bottom of your side skirt to mark your actual torque steer. this way you could do a walk comparision of both vehicles.

have a start point (A) leading to your next point (B) which would be at 3000rpms when you WOT it causing the torque steer.

nice job anthony and El beaner

[MZRSPEED]

A 70d rmm would be enough for about 90% of the cars on this forum, imo. I just don't get the push for guys to throw such stiff mounts on these cars when most of them only see normal day to day driving.

[jack_hammer]

Vibes make your penis bigger

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[Cheapspeed]

Before we even made the video I was discussing @Gr8Speed; that it would not be scientific. Too many variables and very subjective if you wanted the driver to give their opinions on the ability to control the vehicle.

People can make their own conclusions as far as the effectiveness of motor mounts on torque steer. It's obvious both cars drastically changed direction and anyone being careless could get into trouble.

Was a fun project on a lazy Saturday afternoon.

I think @jbmazda6; almost shit his pants my first run. He was manning the outside camera and I cut it a little close but had moment of "shit, maybe it did solve torque steer"

[jbmazda6]

Originally Posted by Cheapspeed I think @jbmazda6; almost shit his pants my first run. He was manning the outside camera and I cut it a little close but had moment of "shit, maybe it did solve torque steer"

Was at about 50% on the about to shit your pants scale

[alextheguineapig]

Originally Posted by MZRSPEED A 70d rmm would be enough for about 90% of the cars on this forum, imo. I just don't get the push for guys to throw such stiff mounts on these cars when most of them only see normal day to day driving.

I bought into this logic at first by going as stiff as possible for the rear mount because when I first bought the car I had no intention of doing the other mounts. At first, it seemed like sound logic. Jaime's description of the duro also seemed to suggest that the 88a alone would hold the engine well enough if you weren't getting the other mounts. As time has gone on, as I have now been tuned to make more power and am considering a bigger turbo, I have considered changing the mounts all around to ensure less movement, but I would really wonder if going 88a is necessary.

If I were to do it again, I would just go 70 all around. I would be very curious to know whether the 88a vibes more than all three mounts at 70 duro.

Thanks for attempting the comparison guys, we knew it wouldn't be perfect, but thanks for trying.

[Gr8Speed]

Interesting. Still not completely convinced it doesn't help with torque steer at all. I will say it isn't eliminated, but I think it definitely help a little. That "help" I felt could have very well just been that the car was driving a little smoother with the mounts (better shifts, smoother power delivery, lack of wheel hop) so it gives the illusion that there is an effect on torque steer, just because of the ability to control the car better. Don't know if that made any sense but its Monday morning so cut me some slack haha.

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by raigekijin If I were to do it again, I would just go 70 all around. I would be very curious to know whether the 88a vibes more than all three mounts at 70 duro.

@bioevolve; just posted a thread covering that specifically.

"The Trilogy 70duro is less NVH than the just the 88duro RMM lol."

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed Interesting. Still not completely convinced it doesn't help with torque steer at all. I will say it isn't eliminated, but I think it definitely help a little. That "help" I felt could have very well just been that the car was driving a little smoother with the mounts (better shifts, smoother power delivery, lack of wheel hop) so it gives the illusion that there is an effect on torque steer, just because of the ability to control the car better. Don't know if that made any sense but its Monday morning so cut me some slack haha.

We just wanted to showcase with and without to help anyone better understand the differences, or lack thereof. Plus it was fun.

[Atticaz]

Somehow this topic slipped by me. Has anyone added a Lower control arm bar in their speed? I have the Corksport one with 80a RMM and Tranny insert and there is absolutely no need for me to deathgrip my steering wheel.

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by Atticaz Somehow this topic slipped by me. Has anyone added a Lower control arm bar in their speed? I have the Corksport one with 80a RMM and Tranny insert and there is absolutely no need for me to deathgrip my steering wheel.

Video it and throw it up. Eliminating torque steer would be nice.

[license2ill]

I don't know how it could control torque steer. It's not a product of engine movement, it's a product of the engine being held in place and not spinning like a gyroscope. If Mazda could have found an easy fix, they would have.

Ford and GM have designed new suspension layouts to try to deal with it, with moderate success.

It's much worse, meaning more violent, in older cars from the early to mid-90s with crappy automatic transmissions under full throttle kickdowns, even with only half the torque of the Mazdaspeeds, because it's all or nothing at the pedal.

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by Cheapspeed Video it and throw it up. Eliminating torque steer would be nice.

I was just out on my lunch break to Taco Bell, when I first realized that I dont notice any torque steer and I had been stepping on it. That's what made me Search 'torque steer'.

What were the conditions of the runs? Rolling speed, gear, when you gunned it, lightly holding steering wheel vs not holding it with hand at the ready? I can do an internal shot, but not an external as all I have is my iPhone to record. Lemme know.

[license2ill]

Originally Posted by Atticaz I was just out on my lunch break to Taco Bell, when I first realized that I dont notice any torque steer and I had been stepping on it. That's what made me Search 'torque steer'. What were the conditions of the runs? Rolling speed, gear, when you gunned it, lightly holding steering wheel vs not holding it with hand at the ready? I can do an internal shot, but not an external as all I have is my iPhone to record. Lemme know.

There's not a single review or article that doesn't mention it as a huge noticeable quality of the experience of driving it. To me it isn't bad, and only really noticeable under hard acceleration, and more so if the wheel is turned. It is present in all fwd cars, and the more torque, the more it is typically apparent. Mazda has electronically limited boost in 1st and 2nd in an attempt to quell it.

Shown extensively here:

http://youtu.be/OISFrU4I_7s?list=PLA97180860447EE6A

[jack_hammer]

WTF is a lower control arm bar?

[license2ill]

Originally Posted by jack_hammer WTF is a lower control arm bar?

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by Cheapspeed Video it and throw it up. Eliminating torque steer would be nice.

Ok. I just took a break from work and took the best vid I could with what I have: my iPhone.

I had to prop my phone up in my passenger seat, as holding it would be way too zoomed in. Lame iPhone Camera.

On the first run, you can't really see that I am not holding the wheel. But I assure you that I am not. The second run, you can see my left hand is open and away from the wheel until I noticed movement. I was on a two lane street so I had to be careful.

I started rolling in 1st gear, til I hit 3000rpm's then gunned it to 6000. Hardly any movement. When in he rpm range did the steering wheel jerk on the two cars in the original vid?

YouTube greatly destroyed the resolution and I uploaded as HD

I'll try to get someone to hold a cam in the passenger seat as soon as possible to show this. But this is all I have for now.

YouTube Short

YouTube Short

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by license2ill

I thought the same thing when I first heard about them.

Product Release! CorkSport Mazdaspeed 3/Mazda 3 Front Lower Arm Bar | CorkSport Mazda Performance - Blog

[jack_hammer]

Someone on mazda3forums makes those for something like $50/ea

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by jack_hammer Someone on mazda3forums makes those for something like $50/ea

Yeah, they are not difficult to make, if you got the means. 👍

[Cheapspeed]

Torque steer has more to do with unequal halfshaft lengths in FWD cars.

Here's an article.

What the heck is torque steer? (ABCs of Car Tech) - CNET

That being said, I'd like to see pictures of this mod.

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by Cheapspeed Torque steer has more to do with unequal halfshaft lengths in FWD cars. Here's an article. What the heck is torque steer? (ABCs of Car Tech) - CNET That being said, I'd like to see pictures of this mod.

Thanks for that link. It made me do more research.

According to this link (below), bad alignment can cause torque steer as well. My alignment is slightly off, from when i replaced my front swaybar bushings. So perhaps bad alignment is counteracting the torque steer in some way. My last torque steer test attempt (not recorded) resulted in my steering wheel actually torquing left. That should be impossible, yes?

I must admit, before my alignment got all out of whack, my torque steer was less, just not this much less. After I get an alignment, I will truly know. That won't be for a while though. I still neEd to do some work and don't want to waste the money.

Torque Steer: Causes and Cures

[license2ill]

Originally Posted by Atticaz Thanks for that link. It made me do more research. According to this link (below), bad alignment can cause torque steer as well. My alignment is slightly off, from when i replaced my front swaybar bushings. So perhaps bad alignment is counteracting the torque steer in some way. My last torque steer test attempt (not recorded) resulted in my steering wheel actually torquing left. That should be impossible, yes? I must admit, before my alignment got all out of whack, my torque steer was less, just not this much less. After I get an alignment, I will truly know. That won't be for a while though. I still neEd to do some work and don't want to waste the money. Torque Steer: Causes and Cures

My guess is that you need to check your tire pressures.

[hatchedspeed3]

@Atticaz; are you tuned, or on ots map, or anything at all? I only bring this up because the orginal video featured 2 cars that were tuned, which DOES NOT restrict boost in 1st gear like the stock map, etc. This may, or may not play in to tq steer, especially in 1st gear. Just my .02 cents.

[license2ill]

The Mazdaspeed3 is mentioned in this C&D article as the modern poster child, but the article explains the geometry changes Ford and GM have recently implemented, basically moving the steering axis outside the strut to the hub with a new knuckle. If you watch the Motor Trend Head to Head video I linked above, you can see that the Focus ST still suffers from it anyway, and they've used the brakes to lessen it in that car.

Ford RevoKnuckle and GM HiPer Strut Explained - Tech. Dept. - Car and Driver

With that, keeping wheel offset more positive will also help. With a 52mm offset on the stock wheels, Mazda seems to have maxxed that idea out already, and it's hard to find aftermarket wheels with offsets over 45mm.

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by license2ill My guess is that you need to check your tire pressures.

I'm a tire pressure nazi. They are all set to to the pressures stated on the door label. 34 front /32 rear.

Originally Posted by hatchedspeed3 @Atticaz; are you tuned, or on ots map, or anything at all? I only bring this up because the orginal video featured 2 cars that were tuned, which DOES NOT restrict boost in 1st gear like the stock map, etc. This may, or may not play in to tq steer, especially in 1st gear. Just my .02 cents.

Not tuned yet. Soon though. That totally makes sense. I forgot about the boost restriction being lifted. I can't wait for my AP.

[hatchedspeed3]

^^IM glad that came to light. Definately make another video when 1st gear boost restrictions are lifted. Im curious to see how much of a difference it is.

[SpencerC]

Interesting. Not sure how I missed this thread in the past, though personally I think all "torque steer is crazy" really isn't proved or unproved based on flooring a car with your hands off the wheel. I've never done that in any car I own, my hands are always on the wheel.

We did have several track and drag guys that loved our lower traction bar. Said it really helped keep the wheels from hopping.

Of course, in my opinion... torque steer is remove completly with the simple fix of... intake, exhaust, downpipe, intercooler, rmm, pmm, tmm, lower control arm bar, mid chassis brace, rear chassis brace, coilovers, hpfp, accessport, rear swaybar, front swaybar, front strut bar and of course.... short shifter, shift knob, hoodscoop, carbon wing, led lights, fog lights, and eyelids.
MORE MODS = LESS TORQUE STEER! It's a FACT!

[hatchedspeed3]

Originally Posted by Spencer@CorkSport Interesting. Not sure how I missed this thread in the past, though personally I think all "torque steer is crazy" really isn't proved or unproved based on flooring a car with your hands off the wheel. I've never done that in any car I own, my hands are always on the wheel. We did have several track and drag guys that loved our lower traction bar. Said it really helped keep the wheels from hopping. Of course, in my opinion... torque steer is remove completly with the simple fix of... intake, exhaust, downpipe, intercooler, rmm, pmm, tmm, lower control arm bar, mid chassis brace, rear chassis brace, coilovers, hpfp, accessport, rear swaybar, front swaybar, front strut bar and of course.... short shifter, shift knob, hoodscoop, carbon wing, led lights, fog lights, and eyelids. MORE MODS = LESS TORQUE STEER! It's a FACT!

wait? cams dont help reduce torque steer? lol

[Atticaz]

Originally Posted by hatchedspeed3 wait? cams dont help reduce torque steer? lol

My air freshener does. So cams have to. lol.

[hatchedspeed3]

Originally Posted by Atticaz My air freshener does. So cams have to. lol.

ah. Now I understand Everything. lol