Upgraded/reworked turbo questions

[red07]

OK, been following the turbo threads from PT and others, and find them mostly enlightening.

I just finished reading John's postings on the 2 turbo failures. What size debris would cause a failure like that? Are we talking about beach sand grains, or are we talking about 1/8" ballbearing size, or something even bigger than that? Does this need to be addressed w/ air filtration below a certain micron size?

The other failure is interesting too, in that something somehow got lodged into an oil line, either via something breaking off inside the engine or something clogged the line while replacing the turbo. That is a total bummer, and also raises the bigger concern that the engine may not be totally fine either. I'm a turbo noob, so this is all news to me.

The time line for the refunds may have been a bit long, especially for the 2 guys whose cars were down for 2+ weeks, but I do feel John deserves some props for covering those failures. I would bet money that Mazda would immediately void any turbo warranty based on the failure modes, unless one of their factory techs did the install. Even if they did cover under warranty, how long would that take? I had an issue w/ the dealer installed MSCAI throwing CEL's, it took Mazda over 2 weeks to get a stock airbox in and installed, a job I bet I could have done in 4 hours with time for lunch and a beer. I suppose the only good part of that is that Mazda did provide a rent-a-car for most of the time my car was down.

Well, at least the 2 guys got their money back, and I am sorry to hear about their trials and tribulations.

As for John, I am still very interested in the upgraded stocker turbo (gotta pass CA emissions/visual), and any improvements thereof will only be better for those of us who won't/can't go big turbo, and all the supporting upgrades to EM/intercooler/exhaust system/ignition.

Does the upgraded stocker run fine off the stock ECU programming w/o CEL's, or does it require further tuning via standback?

[andre0121]

no cel and no tune needed but for real gains u wanna standback tune it

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by red07 OK, been following the turbo threads from PT and others, and find them mostly enlightening. I just finished reading John's postings on the 2 turbo failures. What size debris would cause a failure like that? Are we talking about beach sand grains, or are we talking about 1/8" ballbearing size, or something even bigger than that? Does this need to be addressed w/ air filtration below a certain micron size? The other failure is interesting too, in that something somehow got lodged into an oil line, either via something breaking off inside the engine or something clogged the line while replacing the turbo. That is a total bummer, and also raises the bigger concern that the engine may not be totally fine either. I'm a turbo noob, so this is all news to me. The time line for the refunds may have been a bit long, especially for the 2 guys whose cars were down for 2+ weeks, but I do feel John deserves some props for covering those failures. I would bet money that Mazda would immediately void any turbo warranty based on the failure modes, unless one of their factory techs did the install. Even if they did cover under warranty, how long would that take? I had an issue w/ the dealer installed MSCAI throwing CEL's, it took Mazda over 2 weeks to get a stock airbox in and installed, a job I bet I could have done in 4 hours with time for lunch and a beer. I suppose the only good part of that is that Mazda did provide a rent-a-car for most of the time my car was down. Well, at least the 2 guys got their money back, and I am sorry to hear about their trials and tribulations. As for John, I am still very interested in the upgraded stocker turbo (gotta pass CA emissions/visual), and any improvements thereof will only be better for those of us who won't/can't go big turbo, and all the supporting upgrades to EM/intercooler/exhaust system/ignition. Does the upgraded stocker run fine off the stock ECU programming w/o CEL's, or does it require further tuning via standback?

The debris size was very small and there was only a nick in the exhaust wheel on the one turbo. Spark plug ceramic is normally what causes these types of failures, we have seen that on many occations.

The debris issue is more likely then not cooked oil build up in then oil feed line. We had a horrible problem with this when it came to the SRT4 Neon and made it mandatory that you get a new oil feed side if you wanted the warranty with the turbo.... looks like we may be doing the same for the MS. The size of debris that it takes to cause bearing issues with most turbos on the market is about the size of a grain of sand. With that being said, all of our turbos will either come with a new line or we will be making it mandatory that you get a new one before installing our modded stockers.

It did take a while to get them taken care of but we need to tear the turbos down and make sure all is OK with them before sending refunds out. Think about it this way, if I were to get a turbo full of sand or ???? I would ask the customer what was up and then challenge the refund. Tear downs are not an easy thing to do and you have to be very careful when doing so, that is what took so long. I will appolgize for the cars being down so long but when you start modding..... you had better be ready for problems (like you had with your intake or like many others are having with blown motors). More or less, you pay to play.

We have over a dozen cores now to work with and we will continue the path of the modded stocker. Are we going to run into problems, yep. Are the other guys, yep. When its all done and said we should have the best working stock turbo on the market based on our history of modded stockers.

There is a huge benifit of modding the stock turbo for these cars. When you go big turbo there is to much possibility for the motor to pop (as we have seen on several occations). The SST will offer up what a big turbo will not and it will keep the power levels down to where you should not have to worry about the motor much (proper tune and all). The market is going to be huge for a working upgraded turbo so we will keep on keeping on with these.

I am not to worried with those 2 failures based on the fact that we found something that could of caused the failure. Nothing was 100% so that is why we gave the refunds. I will stand behind every modded stock turbo if the failure can not be directly pointed to customer abuse or improper install.

[red07]

I totally understand the turbo teardown delay, that only makes sense. IMHO the only way to provide same day or next day replacement would be if the customer bought the turbo, had the same shop install the turbo, then brought the car back to that shop to diagnose failure.

I am waiting to join the smoking turbo club, and when that happens I will be picking up a reworked stocker. Easier for smog purposes, and I don't have the time to go big turbo then rip everything apart to go back to stock.

That new oil feed line idea is really good. I would humbly suggest that you include that so the customer can just get it all done at the same time.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by red07 I totally understand the turbo teardown delay, that only makes sense. IMHO the only way to provide same day or next day replacement would be if the customer bought the turbo, had the same shop install the turbo, then brought the car back to that shop to diagnose failure. I am waiting to join the smoking turbo club, and when that happens I will be picking up a reworked stocker. Easier for smog purposes, and I don't have the time to go big turbo then rip everything apart to go back to stock. That new oil feed line idea is really good. I would humbly suggest that you include that so the customer can just get it all done at the same time.

That is what we do for the locals that get these installed (SRT4N). When we have a failure we can either point out what happend or we can replace them right away, like any good shop would do.

Sounds good and that is the idea behind the SST.

We are taking a look at how much they are right now (waiting for a call back). When that happens then I will be getting a bunch of them for the stock we have coming in.

[ptperformance]

Guys I cleaned up the thread for the OP. Eric, I have a PM box if you want to discuss this further.