Welcome Aquamist to MSF

[Haltech]

I would like to welcome Richard from Aquamist to MSF. If you arent familiar with their products, go check out their site. Hopefully Richard makes an intro thread

[nynhex]

Is this the same Aquamist from the UK? Hopefully they'll offer some Water Injection kits via local distributors. Shipping across the pond might hurt.

Welcome!

[Haltech]

Thats them

[subparpunk03]

I have had the aquamist HFS-5 kit on my MS3 for a while now.... absolutely top notch quality.

[phillyb]

interesting. welcome

site - Water injection systems, Methanol injection systems : Aquamist
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automerge

[KoukiS14]

A stateside vendor of their products that I've ordered from and had great dealings with is Howerton Engineering. I think Richard is working some with Jeff on Mazdaspeed stuff.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by KoukiS14 A stateside vendor of their products that I've ordered from and had great dealings with is Howerton Engineering. I think Richard is working some with Jeff on Mazdaspeed stuff.

Jeff at HE has been great to work with, he is real engineer in every sense. He has been helping me with many technical enquiries and also new system development. He also took on to stock most of our "specials" even it only sell one every few years.

I will try to encourge him to come on board this forum.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Are you using a flow sensor or fail safe of some sort? As soon as you tune for it, your dependent on it. I agree fully with hal in the untapped power, but just make sure you do it in a safe way.

The failsafe comprised of a turbine based flow sensor reading flow full time. If the flow is too low, too high or no flow, it will trigger an output. The failsafe activation only spring into action after the system is triggered.

Two failsafe output channels are available, either in the form of a voltage or a set of relay contacts.

[subparpunk03]

MAP also carries their kits.

[Richard L]

Guys, thank you very much for your warm welcomes.

I have been working on a WMI system for the Mazdaspeed community that offers an alternative method of metering methanol/water into the enigne. At present a few of the forum members has offered help, for which I am grateful. In time, I hope I have some good to offer to the Mazda community.

Most of the WMI system uses manifold pressure signal or MAF signal to meter flow, nothing wrong with this whatsoever. We hope to integrate one of our existing system, which is based on the same principle as a conventional fuel injection system. Constant line pressure, an electronic controller for putting out a PWM signal to an inline valve to control flow. This tried and tested method is the heart of our system, we discarded the progressive pump speed (PPS) method to control flow.

The main input signal for our system is base on fuel IDC. We think the IDC signal carries a lot more information than boost or MAF signal. Thousands of engineer hours and based on signals from many sensors, monitioring the engine full time. By mirroring this signal, the engine should receive a predictable amount of injectant under all conditions.

It will be some time before we can make this happen, the MAZDA DI system is very different to other DI system as in VW Audi etc. I will continue to work on this and will update our progress here.

Richard

[subparpunk03]

I've got the HFS-5 running off the PWM right now... it works very well. With the restrictor and nozzle I have selected the car runs almost exactly 1 point richer across the range once the spray engages.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 I've got the HFS-5 running off the PWM right now... it works very well. With the restrictor and nozzle I have selected the car runs almost exactly 1 point richer across the range once the spray engages.

Which means you have it setup correctly for flow levels... Now you need to tune it to take advantage of the additional octane since 1 full pt is about 20hp sitting untapped.

[djuosnteisn]

Are you using a flow sensor or fail safe of some sort?

As soon as you tune for it, your dependent on it.

I agree fully with hal in the untapped power, but just make sure you do it in a safe way.

[subparpunk03]

The kit has failsafes, but they are not hooked up at present since I just went over to the darkside and picked up a standback. Normally you would wire into the EBCS so that in a failure condition the WG opens.

I am in the process of wiring mine in the standback, the DDSv8 has a button on it that can turn the system on or off at will, then I can wire that into the standback so that it runs either a wet map, or a dry map, if a failure occurs it will switch back to the dry map instead of just boost cutting.

I was actually going to get that done about a year ago, but then cobb released ATR and I sold the SB and profuel controller and I spent a bunch of time playing with that instead...

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 The kit has failsafes, but they are not hooked up at present since I just went over to the darkside and picked up a standback. Normally you would wire into the EBCS so that in a failure condition the WG opens. I am in the process of wiring mine in the standback, the DDSv8 has a button on it that can turn the system on or off at will, then I can wire that into the standback so that it runs either a wet map, or a dry map, if a failure occurs it will switch back to the dry map instead of just boost cutting. I was actually going to get that done about a year ago, but then cobb released ATR and I sold the SB and profuel controller and I spent a bunch of time playing with that instead...

I think you should consider using the failsafe soon if you are going to tune your engine for more power. If you have some spare moments between playing with the ATR, I can help you get it going again.

[djuosnteisn]

Sounds like a great setup! I'll prob have to copy you lol.

[JumpingJackson]

Richard how does your failsafes compare to the Labonte IFS 30c

IFS-30C - Injection Fail Safe - Combo

Also how does your system compare to a "progressive system" with a flow control solenoid?

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Richard how does your failsafes compare to the Labonte IFS 30c IFS-30C - Injection Fail Safe - Combo

Our failsafe compares very well with the labonte system. I cannot give a detail comparison until I have one to test. Looking at the size of the unit, it appeared the Labonte system uses a paddle wheel flow sensor instead of a turbine wheel as in our system.

The Aqaumist stand-alone failsafe system (DDS3-v10) comes with a dash gauge and a junction box where you can configure it to work with any system on the market. The system can also be used to contruct a "home-made" PWM valve based system by adding a Water pump and a Fast acting valve.

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Also how does your system compare to a "progressive system" with a flow control solenoid?

Progressive system is also known as PPS (progressive pump speed). Fluid flow is controller by the rotational speed of the pump. More speed = more pressure = more flow. Its dynamic range is governed by the square root of pressure change.

Inline valve delivery system is similar to a conventional fuel injection system. A constant line pressure provided by a pump. A controller sends a PWN signal to an inline valve. Flow is altered by varying the duty cycle % of the PWM signal.

The major differences between the two systems are mainly dynamic range and response time.

[Kdawg207]

welcome

[JumpingJackson]

Its plain to see that the product you sell is gold-plated and very high quality, but it also has a price to match. So forgive my questions

Where would your average water/methanol sprayer see/notice/appreciate the difference in how your system operates over both a PPS system and hypothetically the IFS-30?

for example, based on the IFS30 design principle where would the IFS-30 fail to mitigate a water/methanol injection failure where your system would succeed?

In the tuning and performance of a vehicle where would a tuner/user notice the difference between a PPS system with a inline flow control valve like this: FCS-10 - Fluid Control Solenoid, and your system?

Also what is different in how the Mazda Direct Injection operates and the BMW/VW's?

BTW from your experience how much does water/methanol injection help in keeping the valves clean on those DI bmw/audi's? Ive seen some horrifying pictures of intake valves that make me sick haha

Thanks for your input!

[Richard L]

My replies in Green...

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Its plain to see that the product you sell is gold-plated and very high quality, but it also has a price to match. So forgive my questions High dollars: this is no longer true. As from January this year, we have launched two new systems, both IDC/PWM valve. Street price of $499 and $699. - More details: Aquamist HFS-3 system for 2010 ..... "Q and A" - waterinjection.info Where would your average water/methanol sprayer see/notice/appreciate the difference in how your system operates over both a PPS system and hypothetically the IFS-30? This is a big topic, rather repeating on this thread, go to the link below where you will have all your answers regarding... "see/notice/appreciate". Please let me know if there are points I have missed. What is the real difference between Aquamist and ... - evolutionm.net for example, based on the IFS30 design principle where would the IFS-30 fail to mitigate a water/methanol injection failure where your system would succeed? IMHO, the design principle is sound but it is implemented on hardware with limitation. My reasoning would made more sense after reading the above link. I am very happy to elaborate on this. In the tuning and performance of a vehicle where would a tuner/user notice the difference between a PPS system with a inline flow control valve like this: FCS-10 - Fluid Control Solenoid, and your system? As far as I know,the inline valve is not operated in PWM mode, it is an on/off affair. As far as I am aware of the reason behind this option it is to address the "start/stop" and "run-on/dribble" associated with a PPS system. A PPS system relies on varying pump speed, unfortunately the inertia of the rotating pump will not allow rapid flow change. Everytime you let off the throttle, the spray will not stop instantly. See this video. A PPS and a PWM-V system side by side. The introduction of the inline valve will stop "run-on" dribble from happening. But only address the problem "run-on" partially. The area this valve is not covering is the most important part: the business end of the delivery range - the same inertia will cause havoc when the load change is neither "full-on" nor "full-off". Only the PWM valve is fast enough to match those areas. A typical response time for a PPS system is in tenth's of a second compared to thousand's of a second of a PWM valve system. If the PPS system is as good as advertised, all major car makers will replace the fuel injector and just modulate the fuel pump. Also what is different in how the Mazda Direct Injection operates and the BMW/VW's? I am trying to learn the Mazda DI system now, will let know very soon. BTW from your experience how much does water/methanol injection help in keeping the valves clean on those DI bmw/audi's? Ive seen some horrifying pictures of intake valves that make me sick haha I am not expert on this, but did read about its ability to remove any oil slugs surrouding the inlet valve seal area. Thanks for your input! I am here to help with any WMI related question, please do continue on with the question. Never buy anything until you have done your researches and know exactlty what you are buying. BTW the Labonte 3 system + failsafe will set you back around $725. Cost more than the HFS-3 (with failsafe). The delivery algorithm of the HFS-3 is much more refined. Richard

[felt]

- Just went over to your forums and saw pictures of your Aquamist system installed on peoples cars, freakin' insane. Nice stuff there for sure.

[djuosnteisn]

Mazda's DI system uses a quirky + and - control system comprised of 2 shared + lines (between cyl's 1 & 4 and 2 & 3), and an individual - line per injector.

I think most of DI systems use a single control line, or at least a system not as confusing.


Also the aquamist system controls wmi flow based on the injector duration of the fuel injectors. In a sense, this basically means that they benefit form all the multiple sensors within the ecu (monitoring map, manifold temps, maf etc etc) to control their flow.

So a good analogy between their system and a typical map based progressive system is like comparing a oem ecu control to a map only control (and i mean map only, not even temp like speed density).

At least that's how i understand it.

And i also see other interesting possibilities stemming from such a controller, especially on a platform that will most likely exhaust it's fueling requirements quite soon.

[subparpunk03]

JJ, I can tell you from having the system on my car for a while that the biggest advantage is that it is dead-on accurate at WOT... AFRs are drop consistently across the range by a point (I can change that by using a larger jet, or a different restrictor, etc.)

Where the hfs-5 system trips up is when the fuel rail pressure is not maxxed, so if I see enough IDC to trip the system but the fuel rail pressure is lower and thus not injecting as much, the aquamist system will richen me up too much. This doesn't happen often though and really I've found that the basic PWM mode works just fine with the DI system... though Richard may have some ideas on how to improve it, which I am anxiously waiting to hear about

I'll take a look this weekend and let you know which injector line I tapped.

[KoukiS14]

I imagine that the Aquatec controller, solenoid, guage, etc. could be retrofit to an existing WMI system, since they all use the same basic Aquatec DDP5800 pump.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by KoukiS14 I imagine that the Aquatec controller, solenoid, guage, etc. could be retrofit to an existing WMI system, since they all use the same basic Aquatec DDP5800 pump.

Basically yes, the aquamist system set the pump to 160psi compared to the PPS system of 200psi+. Have spoken the aquatec technical guy and he advised to run no more than 180psi - absolute maximum.

If you want to convert a third party aquatec bases PPS system to aquamist, you need to turn the pressure down. There is a small set- screw at the from of the pump.

The DDS3v10 is such a system, does not come with a pump or valve.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Mazda's DI system uses a quirky + and - control system comprised of 2 shared + lines (between cyl's 1 & 4 and 2 & 3), and an individual - line per injector. I think most of DI systems use a single control line, or at least a system not as confusing. Also the aquamist system controls wmi flow based on the injector duration of the fuel injectors. In a sense, this basically means that they benefit form all the multiple sensors within the ecu (monitoring map, manifold temps, maf etc etc) to control their flow. So a good analogy between their system and a typical map based progressive system is like comparing a oem ecu control to a map only control (and i mean map only, not even temp like speed density). At least that's how i understand it. And i also see other interesting possibilities stemming from such a controller, especially on a platform that will most likely exhaust it's fueling requirements quite soon.

Thanks for the explanation. I am getting to knowing the DI better. I know the aquamist IDc system will work as it is but I want to dig a bit deeper and understand why.

[fjames]

It's a hoot to see Richard here after spending months reading his stuff at the subie and evo forums. He's very generous with his time and knowledge, and willing to help out on individual installations to an amazing degree from my experience.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by KoukiS14 I imagine that the Aquatec controller, solenoid, guage, etc. could be retrofit to an existing WMI system, since they all use the same basic Aquatec DDP5800 pump.

There are two methods of controlling flow for aquatec pump for WMI application.

1. A variable voltage module is used to slow or speed up the pump to vary flow
2. A constant voltage applied to the aquatec punmp to produce a fix pressure. A PWM valve to control flow.

Originally Posted by fjames It's a hoot to see Richard here after spending months reading his stuff at the subie and evo forums. He's very generous with his time and knowledge, and willing to help out on individual installations to an amazing degree from my experience.

I enjoy engineering, so problem solving is one of interesting aspect of my daily work.

If anyone here wants to know anything about WMI, I will do my best to explain. I will also tell you if I don't know the answer.

[djuosnteisn]

I think the fuel pressure issue would be a very simple thing to work around.

[Richard L]

I can see a an application where the IDC based WMI systyem can benefit the MS3/6 application where methanal can play a more major part in supplementing the fuel requirement to power tuning.

WMI is often used for inlet and incylinder cooling. Spoken to djuosnteisn, he indiciated that if reliable retrival of F-IDC can be made the aquamist system's job will be more interesting and productive.