Why are APs so expensive?

[Sweetsandman]

Originally Posted by Roddiy Because in my opinion the best way to go about things is to make sure you have a solid platform to throw power into. Not to say that the stock suspension isn't fine, but better suspension components make the car WAY more stable than stock, and much more controllable.

Let's be honest...you bought coilovers for moar low...like a majority of the folks on here...no need to try to justify it with words like "stable" and "controllable." The stock suspension is more than adequate to take turns at 60 as you say...tires are what improve your on ramp cornering.

Back on topic...While R&D, and lifetime updates are all fantastic...let's not forget that you're paying for the name. A brand new laptop has R&D and lifetime updates...and does a heck of a lot more than an AP for around the same price. In fact, I wish Cobb would take notes from HPTuners and ditch this stupid plastic thing that is as flimsy as all get out. Just go strictly software with a USB to OBD2 like HPTuners or even Trifecta. I'd still gladly pay the same price...the AP looks and feels cheap...feels like I have to treat it like I'm holding an egg or I'll crack it. And if you sneeze near it the screen scratches.

But, as I mentioned, you're paying for the name at least in some capacity. I mean ALL of their parts are expensive...like going through AMS...or Crawford...Cobb probably produces their catted downpipe for around 200 bucks...don't tell me they don't mark their shit up...a lot.

Having said that, the AP is the ONLY way to go. And until someone else comes out with something as good or better for less money, plan on paying for an AP...

Also OP... If you pay full retail for an AP, you're an idiot.

I Tapped that

[TRex]

lol all these people in here that drive in straight lines

[reidclark]

If I made a product, sold it for $600, and people are still buying it like the AP is being bought today, I wouldn't lower the price either.

It's simple economics, if the price was higher demand would fall and the invisible hand of the free market would drive prices down. If prices were lower then demand would rise and Cobb couldn't keep up with the orders, and the prices would be forced back up. They have reached equilibrium to where the prices is on point with the demand curve.

That'll be $540 for the 6 credit hours of Econ you've now been taught.

[2.0t03speed]

They just put the evo x & focus st ap's on sale for 450. i'm hoping they do the same for the Mazda ap's.

[Boonestafa]

Originally Posted by Roddiy So Cobb, I have a question: Why are the APs so expensive? Is it the R&D? is it because of some sort of licensing with the manufacturer of the ECUs? Surely it can't be because of the hardware, unless there's some crazy chip inside there, the thing costs as much as a new computer! I'm not complaining per say(though I do think $600 is a rather high price point, but the AP is pretty much the best solution out there, if I had the money lying around I would happily pay for a new one!) but I would just like to know the reason for so much money. @Evan@COBB;

just think about the market size. there are what 25k cars out there and maybe 20% mod them. it has to be a high profit margin on the hardware to make up for the time spent developing the softwear to support the hard mods.

[forcedinduktion]

COBB is now sellling APs for EVO X for 420 on sale!

[2.0t03speed]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion COBB is now sellling APs for EVO X for 420 on sale!

Where do you see them for 420? Just checked the site and they are still at 449.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[ms3rick]

this is the worst troll; or another dumb guy... There is no reason to try and threw the BEST tunning option for our platform.

[guitarzan134]

It would still be nice if that money bought better hardware...

My AP is being repaired for the THIRD time, for the same problem, in just a couple of months. It completely bricked on me while starting up. It's hard to monitor vitals from a new map when the hardware is broken.

[leon78]

I wish the tuning platforms for the FR-S/BRZ were as cheap as the AP...and they have no user end tuning capibilitys. The AP is a bang for the buck.

[Raider]

Well, there is this.
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...e-10-a-140565/

and of course pming edgeautosport too.

[ASHMS3]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Most mods you purchase once, and in essence, use once. Even suspension, granting with CO's and some others there is a level of adjustability for spring height or dampening. With the AP you purchase once, then have the option to use over & over to tweak & adjust the tune. It's arguably the single most valuable investment in your Speed. Think of it as a Force Multiplier that allows you to get the best out of any change to your car. Worth every penny, and then some. Now, the scary thought would be if they changed the price structure, and sold the AP for, say, only $250, but stopped giving away ATR. They could be getting $500 for ATR alone.....

Ti nailed it, the fact that we get atr for free more than makes up for the cost of the AP. If all we got for the money was the AP and OTS maps, then it would not be worth it. But, we get the software that allows you to self or etune any way you want to. From intake only custom tunes to BT/built motor 500+ hp setups, the ap more than pays for itself. Its why when I get another car, it will most likely be another speed and why I haven't sold my parts.

Edit: Cobb also provides continued support and adds new features at no cost to us, so there's that too.

Tappin'

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Sweetsandman Let's be honest...you bought coilovers for moar low...like a majority of the folks on here...no need to try to justify it with words like "stable" and "controllable." The stock suspension is more than adequate to take turns at 60 as you say...tires are what improve your on ramp cornering. Back on topic...While R&D, and lifetime updates are all fantastic...let's not forget that you're paying for the name. A brand new laptop has R&D and lifetime updates...and does a heck of a lot more than an AP for around the same price. In fact, I wish Cobb would take notes from HPTuners and ditch this stupid plastic thing that is as flimsy as all get out. Just go strictly software with a USB to OBD2 like HPTuners or even Trifecta. I'd still gladly pay the same price...the AP looks and feels cheap...feels like I have to treat it like I'm holding an egg or I'll crack it. And if you sneeze near it the screen scratches. But, as I mentioned, you're paying for the name at least in some capacity. I mean ALL of their parts are expensive...like going through AMS...or Crawford...Cobb probably produces their catted downpipe for around 200 bucks...don't tell me they don't mark their shit up...a lot. Having said that, the AP is the ONLY way to go. And until someone else comes out with something as good or better for less money, plan on paying for an AP... Also OP... If you pay full retail for an AP, you're an idiot. I Tapped that

Full disclosure here, my car isn't that low at all. It was set lower when I got the coils but I raised them a bit.


I'm basically waiting for either a used AP or for Cobb to throw a sale on the Mazda APs like they're doing with the Evos. I'd pay $420 for a new AP tonight if they did that.

[DylanFYHN]

In b4 can crusher
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1363792733.068614.jpg

[Sid3wayS]

Im surprised that no one has addressed the fact that on any other platform, jumping on a dyno and getting a single tune will run you $500 easy. Here you're paying $500 once and able to tune yourself for as many different scenarios as you please.

[chuckms6]

The ap is like a gm vehicle. All the money is in the drivetrain and the body is shit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[forcedinduktion]

Originally Posted by 2.0t03speed Where do you see them for 420? Just checked the site and they are still at 449. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

ETS had it for 420 and then they dropped it to 409 with next day shipping free

[2.0t03speed]

Originally Posted by forcedinduktion ETS had it for 420 and then they dropped it to 409 with next day shipping free

Ugh that is just nuts

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[reidclark]

If Cobb sold ap for that price tomorrow I'd buy it immediately. But so would a million other people and they would all be back ordered lol.

[Sweetsandman]

Originally Posted by reidclark If Cobb sold ap for that price tomorrow I'd buy it immediately. But so would a million other people and they would all be back ordered lol.

You don't honestly believe they'd be back ordered if they dropped the price 100 bucks...

All Cobb did was maximize profit. Make it cheap enough that people will buy it...but not without releasing a sigh of disgust right before they hit the order button...it's a business move. Their price point on this product has nothing to do with the ability to keep these in stock.

The AP looks the same no matter if you have a subaru or a GTR...Yet the cost is massively different. The only difference is the software...so it's not a supply issue... It's a maximum profit issue

I Tapped that

[reidclark]

Check your math, 595-409=$195. So almost 200 off I feel would cause a back order, yes.

[MS3inDC]

The Evo X APs are on sale because Cobb is trying to get a larger portion of that market. Plain and simple. They're making the price more attractive to get consumers off the fence and buying their product.

It's not on sale for the MS3 because... well... it's the tuning solution nearly our entire community turns to. They've "cornered" the ms3 market already.

Companies put things on sale to entice buyers, not to "do favors".

[Bisquick Mehoff]

Originally Posted by Tommy Specialty software with a small market always costs a lot. Photoshop is $700 and probably has more sales than the AP.

I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS

Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by Bisquick Mehoff I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

I don't know a single photographer who has stolen it.

[Chuthor]

All the artists I know that are doing work professionally have bought themselves legit licensed copies of PS.

[BlackBandit]

Originally Posted by Bisquick Mehoff I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

If you are a legit business using it for work, you don't ever want to get caught with an unlicensed photoshop. The lawsuit can end your business right then and there.



One of my friends drives an SRT-4 and he would give his left nut to have a $500 tuning solution like the AP. HE's dropped thousands on shit like MBC, Turbo Timer, Standalone ECU, and at least a dozen dyno runs to try to get properly tuned. We're lucky we have this option.

[turboKart]

Originally Posted by Bisquick Mehoff I don't know a single person who has ever paid money for PS Pretty easy to get for free honestly.

Since I'm not a professshonal, I borrow my software - long live paintshop. Back when it was current, it use to take all the photoshop plugins, like KAI, which I borrowed as well.

[Yatta]

I said this earlier, the only thing comparable to the value you get out of the AP on our platform is Megasquirt, even so, doing Megasquirt would likely cost as much (you would want an MegaSquirt3 for logging and such) and when you were finished getting it running you would then have to set down the path of trying to learn why our motors are the way they are.... to do this 'cheaply' you would have to solder a circuit board (did that), roll your own harness (did this), or adaptors (and this), 'wire wrap' and tack solder in any mods you might want (like the AC enrichment or the cooling fan) and when that is all in place learn more about VE/Spark tables than you ever thought you could.(still learning).. I don't like the AP dongle, in fact, I hate it; its too small, too light and an awkward shape, the display is a passive LCD that shows artifacts when fast refreshes occur and it requires a hard wire to the ODBII port; the megasquirt I am installing on my VW has BT wireless and needs a laptop, not ideal in either case, we have ATR (not on the Mac, Cobb are your reading this?) and Megasquirt has TunerStudio MS, but, the AP is still a wonderful product and none of the faults I see are anything that would prevent me from recommending it to anyone who would ask. I have more HP/TQ and better MPG because of it, not sure about having a warranty though, I tend to void those quickly.

[sidekick]

They have our market cornered with the exception of versatuner. I imagine that versatuner will grow in popularity eventually. It is bigger in other countries, where they just recently released the AP for our platform.

It sucks though, because I feel as though Cobb is beginning to spread themselves pretty thin. They spend much more time focusing on the STI/EVO/GTR. Now even the ST. It's understandable from a business perspective, because they are all larger markets than ours, but shit, we always get put on the backburner when it comes time to make updates to the AP/ATR.

[08cosmic3]

Throwing engine mods on this car with out a tune resulted in many blown engines before the AP came out. How much does replacing our engine cost?

I monitor with my Galaxy S2 now, cost $30 for the BT reader and the apps.

[magicka]

Originally Posted by BlackBandit One of my friends drives an SRT-4 and he would give his left nut to have a $500 tuning solution like the AP. HE's dropped thousands on shit like MBC, Turbo Timer, Standalone ECU, and at least a dozen dyno runs to try to get properly tuned. We're lucky we have this option.

I've killed for something like the AP when I had my Audi. Compared to $500 for a flash from APR (and I was lucky to be close enough to a dealer that I didn't have to send my ECU in) the AP is a steal.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Forum Runner

[kaprikorn]

Originally Posted by Sid3wayS Im surprised that no one has addressed the fact that on any other platform, jumping on a dyno and getting a single tune will run you $500 easy. Here you're paying $500 once and able to tune yourself for as many different scenarios as you please.

Here in Mexico AP is a very good deal for flashing your Mazda. Piasini flash here is around the 900 USD and an update if you add bolts its around 100 USD

For other brands like VW/Audi, Dodge, Ford etc there are solutions near to the 600 USD (hand held style), and flashes are cheaper but kind the cost for updates like Piasini

[Cobb Tuning]

Originally Posted by Roddiy So Cobb, I have a question: Why are the APs so expensive? Is it the R&D? is it because of some sort of licensing with the manufacturer of the ECUs? Surely it can't be because of the hardware, unless there's some crazy chip inside there, the thing costs as much as a new computer! I'm not complaining per say(though I do think $600 is a rather high price point, but the AP is pretty much the best solution out there, if I had the money lying around I would happily pay for a new one!) but I would just like to know the reason for so much money.

The price covers a lot of things that we do - but it is mostly there to create and maintain products that our customers enjoy using and upgrading.

The real reverse engineering process is time consuming and expensive. Depending on the platform, there can be anywhere from 3 months to a year+ of breaking into the ECU. Then there is the amount of time analyzing the logic, figuring out how to re-flash it properly, and then design something that can be tunable and sell-able as a finished product. Then you have to factor in the the time spent testing, the time spent on the dyno, and the time/resources spent making both AP Firmware and ATP/ATR.

You are right in that the AP isn't that expensive hardware wise, but your hard earned money is paying for the software inside it. Notice the amount of times the firmware has been updated since its introduction, along with the testing that needs to go into it. In order for us (Cobb) to continue to deliver a product that grows even after you buy it, we have to cover our costs and pay for engineers like me to make that dream happen for the customer.

Even for me to find certain things in the ECU (like the Fuel scalar almost a year ago), it can take a few months to figure out and test it on the dyno. That time and money is justified with the margin of the AP and is directly correlated with the sales. The better the Mazda AP does, the more R&D we can put into it to make it better.

To answer the question of why the Mazda AP is still $595 ( in comparison to Mitsu), its because we have a lot of resources on my end being poured into it. Some for some of the stuff you can see in the latest firmware release, but a lot of it for stuff you haven't seen yet. It's a strong product with a great future ahead of it - and I'm happy to be the one at Cobb to make that happen.

Hope that answers your question.

Thanks,

-David@COBB

[Kdawg207]

because it works!


Love the new images that show on the AP since my update today.
Had a blast today logging

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by David@COBB The price covers a lot of things that we do - but it is mostly there to create and maintain products that our customers enjoy using and upgrading. The real reverse engineering process is time consuming and expensive. Depending on the platform, there can be anywhere from 3 months to a year+ of breaking into the ECU. Then there is the amount of time analyzing the logic, figuring out how to re-flash it properly, and then design something that can be tunable and sell-able as a finished product. Then you have to factor in the the time spent testing, the time spent on the dyno, and the time/resources spent making both AP Firmware and ATP/ATR. You are right in that the AP isn't that expensive hardware wise, but your hard earned money is paying for the software inside it. Notice the amount of times the firmware has been updated since its introduction, along with the testing that needs to go into it. In order for us (Cobb) to continue to deliver a product that grows even after you buy it, we have to cover our costs and pay for engineers like me to make that dream happen for the customer. Even for me to find certain things in the ECU (like the Fuel scalar almost a year ago), it can take a few months to figure out and test it on the dyno. That time and money is justified with the margin of the AP and is directly correlated with the sales. The better the Mazda AP does, the more R&D we can put into it to make it better. To answer the question of why the Mazda AP is still $595 ( in comparison to Mitsu), its because we have a lot of resources on my end being poured into it. Some for some of the stuff you can see in the latest firmware release, but a lot of it for stuff you haven't seen yet. It's a strong product with a great future ahead of it - and I'm happy to be the one at Cobb to make that happen. Hope that answers your question. Thanks, -David@COBB

This answers my question perfectly, thanks David!

[Keko]

Extremely disappointed in OPs question. He is an engineer and the answer is obvious, as everyone else and Cobb have explained. This should be Very familiar to an engineer lol.

[ABolewski]

Originally Posted by Roddiy If I could do that you'd be buying Rod's Tooning Device haha, it's not NEARLY as easy as it seems. I'm sure they spent months cracking the ECU.

I'm not in the industry or anything, however my buddy does a lot of ECU work for GM. He started back in the early 90's and chose to stay away from the imports because the companies always make sure that the ECU software gets leaked- so to speak. I'm sure that's not the right terminology for it all.

I'm pretty sure Cobb accesses the ECU information pretty quickly for all the cars they support. Don't quote me on this, and I know COBB won't admit to this, but Ken (that works for GM) says that that's how the import industry works. If COBB (and other companies) can tune Mazdaspeed's, Mazda will sell more speeds. That's why.

EDIT: Just read the rest of the thread, including COBB's answer. I'm ready, flame suit is on. Haha

[KyleMS32010]

I was happy to pay $540 for my AP. For what you get, it is a great deal. I came from a VW with mostly just flash tunes available for about the same price.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by Keko Extremely disappointed in OPs question. He is an engineer and the answer is obvious, as everyone else and Cobb have explained. This should be Very familiar to an engineer lol.

<--- Engineering student

I'm still learning haha. But I wanted to know if EVERYTHING was R&D, was there some licensing involved, and other things.


Basically I overlooked Software Updates and constant work on David's part to further the platform. It seems like they haven't even cracked 100% of the ECU yet (as he suggested that development is still ongoing) also, there is no licensing required (phew...) as a STUDENT, I wanted to find out more about the industry, as I plan on going that route when I finish school (aftermarket car mods and whatnot)


Anyways, Thanks David for the solid answer, and Cobb for making this device.



Mine has already shipped and will be here on Wednesday

[tinboi479]

If 600 is expensive check out the AP for the gtr lol