why the double standard cobb?

[leo766]

supposedly maps are locked cuz the tuners requested it... from what i gather from ap posts across many different car forums

so you think every tuner who asks for this mandary default locking is an honest person...?

i fail to see your logic in saying, maps must be locked by default because the poeple who buy the AP are crooks, yet protuners, who are just ppl who are spending a bit more for the exact same product with a bit more versatility are beyond question?

ive had some bad experiances with tuners(next time go to a tuner and act like you know nothing about cars, youll be shocked at who youll find lying to your face)

so how could i tell a protuner didnt just put an ots map on my car and locked it?

if anything i would say the map im running now is 99.9% ots, and that is unacceptable or 600$, so why the double standard?

its unacceptable for us to steal tuner maps, which i doubt even happens since who did the investigating to prove this... i can think of alot of bad reasons tuners would want their maps locked the least of which is cuz people are steal maps left and right(especially for the ms6 due to the low production numbers)

i could imagine part of the real reason is so they can instead of having their work stolen, just put an OTS map on and lock it, change two things here and there and call it tuning ur car... how would you know how they arrived at the final tune unless u stood over their shoulder the whole time

this black box effect you created, in my eyes devalues your product to an unacceptable level, and had i know you would do this to your end user, i would never do business with you, so until this balance of power shifts out of the tuners hands, i will continue to use the ap until it breaks, and then make a point to never buy a product from a company that treats its patrons that way since i sunk 1300 and have nothing but a humuliatingly low dyno graph to show for it, with a hp number i expect my car to make bone stock.... the only other rational explanation being that the hp number on your site are beyond exaggerated... i hope not

i am not trying to flame, i am simply trying to reason that i have spent probably almost as much money to get my car running right as these tuners have getting the software, yet clearly you seem to put them beyond suspision... at the very least set up a complaint system to report dishonest tuners so that you may steer your clients away from them, when i tried i felt like i was essentialy told that im the crook and should be quiet because tuners have no reason to decieve me ever nor would they try(right......)

since locking your maps by default and also listing tuners who have no idea how to use ur software properly is what i call a double whammy... i dont appretiate being treated like im some theif, and i especially dont appretiate that the only thing that puts these tuners into a privilaged position of trust is the amount of money they spent

if you cant trust us then clearly we cant trust the tuners, humans are humans and no one is beyond suspicion, if you have to take steps like making ur cobb into a black box to protect the tuners, then you need to take equivalent steps to insure that the unsavory elements out there dont use this to mask their lack of any kind of knowledge or actual tuning ability

somehow i dont hear about the standback having its maps locked... so to believe theft goes on for a car as rare as say a mazdaspeed 6... but ONLY on the AP... cmon now, i think if there was an issue it would be a cross platform concern, there is only one protuner in the state i live in, what other tuner is gonna steal their work? and if they do who cares, i doupt someone would drive 400 miles if they really need a tune(unless their very brave or dont really need a tune at all)...

if anything locking maps during a recession, only makes it that much more tempting to do very little and charge alot, since i could put a car in a shop for a week.... do a days worth of work, and claim it took me years to do it, in fact unless a tuner provides you with several dyno graphs how do you know he even ran it on a dyno more than once (esp since the tuner i used supposedly somehow tuned my car, and got it pefrect, then dynod it, gave me the graph, and then went and street tuned it, but didnt dyno it after that, so in fact i might have alot less that 220whp, cuz there were tons of changes made as i was told during the test drive(cuz it took them 3 hours to come back, i htought they totalled my car at first))

so please cobb, if you want to keep me, and im sure alot of others as future customers, please even the playing field... because both drivers and tuners are humans, and humans lie, every one of them... even me... so i dont ask for you to start unlocking maps, but you must do something to validate the work that is being performed behind this "veil of secrecy" you placed into your products after the fact, because i have tons of suspicion and when voicing it to you in countless emails, in return i get hostility as if im trying to trick them or something, when my appeal from the start was that you simply look at the map and tell me if changes were really made beyond that of OTS

so i figure maybe i should ask this for all of us, since i dont wish this nightmare of a tune i got on anyone.... incompetent beyond belief are words that i currently associate with the cobb Protuner list...

if anyone knows of an actually competent tuner on the east coast around dc please let me know, i hear IAG or AIG... whatever its called in MD is pritty good... but as it stands I would not recommend tuning anything cobb related in NoVA unless you got more money than you know what to do with, or consider someone who can do nothing more for your car than dial in your maf sensor a PRO anything much less a tuner.

p.s. i have been trying to figure out a non offensive way to articulate this, so please forgive any hostility that comes across, but how would you feel if you found that you bought a 1300 car part, and it literally didnt do half of what it promised... and then the manufacturer responded to you email going "so what? lower your expectations it is what it is"

[crazyp]

hmm, I don't understand why your blaming cobb for he tuner locking the map. as far as I knew its up to the tuner if its locked or not, not cobb they just provide the functionality. as far as a shitty tuner, im sure thats what you got but my question is how do your tuned numbers compare to your base line numbers?

Any ways don't bad mouth a company that simply gives more options to a higher paying customer especially when they give you the ability for free to tune your car yourself with ATR. try doing this with a hypertech and see what it gets you

[memin]

that is waaaaay too much reading

[Haltech]

If you were a tuner, you too would want a way to protect your intellectual property against competitors. I find nothing wrong with locking your maps. John@theshop is a perfect example of why you want your map locked.

[triplejumper18]

Yeah you should be directing your anger at the tuner and not Cobb because Cobb didn't make your shitty locked tune, the tuner did.

[aaronc7]

fail thread

[rodrigo]

---

Important Moderator/Administrator Notes Below TL , DR, NCE, SMNF, & YMSCIH

[taf0422]

^^^^HAHAHAHA

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 fail thread

Fail thread fails


Sent from my iPhone using lame ass Tapatalk

[superskaterxes]

this is why you do a baseline and after dyno to see the curve/numbers difference.

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Dude, if you're going to bitch and moan....at least do it about the correct topic.
It's the tuner, not Cobb....

Thank you for your post and we understand your concerns. A fair amount of thought and debate has gone into our decision to offer vendor-lockable protuned maps. We offer vendor-lockable maps based on the idea that a tune is the intellectual property of the tuner. This functionality essentially allows the tuner to offer his services in a way that allows them to protect their methods and the services they have provided. The tuners have the option to lock or unlock a calibration. Some tuners will leave these calibrations unlocked or will even save them in an AccessTUNER Race-editable format so that the enthusiast can tinker with his tune later as he sees fit. We leave it up to the tuner to decide how to offer their maps to their customers.

We understand that the tuning experience for some consumers isn't always the best. It is our belief that the market will drive consumers to those vendors and tuners that offer the best services and customer experience. We highly recommend researching any modification and tuner before doing business with them.

If you have a specific concern feel free to contact us directly at sales@cobbtuning.com or call us at 1-866-922-3059 and we are more than happy to do what we can!

[MS6 Sanchez]

Originally Posted by Travis@Cobb Thank you for your post and we understand your concerns. A fair amount of thought and debate has gone into our decision to offer vendor-lockable protuned maps. We offer vendor-lockable maps based on the idea that a tune is the intellectual property of the tuner. This functionality essentially allows the tuner to offer his services in a way that allows them to protect their methods and the services they have provided. The tuners have the option to lock or unlock a calibration. Some tuners will leave these calibrations unlocked or will even save them in an AccessTUNER Race-editable format so that the enthusiast can tinker with his tune later as he sees fit. We leave it up to the tuner to decide how to offer their maps to their customers. We understand that the tuning experience for some consumers isn't always the best. It is our belief that the market will drive consumers to those vendors and tuners that offer the best services and customer experience. We highly recommend researching any modification and tuner before doing business with them. If you have a specific concern feel free to contact us directly at sales@cobbtuning.com or call us at 1-866-922-3059 and we are more than happy to do what we can!

This is how an adult answers a question. +1
great service

[smakdown61]

It's not cobb's fault you went to a shitty tuner. Either go to a better one or tune it yourself.

[DSIT995]

imho cobb offers some of the best products & services in the aftermarket community. I dont see how u can blame them for the way YOUR tuner used their software. I dont see the connection.

I said it one of your other threads u need to get ur $$$ back from the tuner, not blame cobb

[Harry Warden]

Dear Cobb:

F-you for being a business and wanting to make money. F-you for selling your products to all types of consumers. F-you for not overseeing all the applications/installations of said products. And finally, F-me for being a buyer of your products.

[MS3inDC]

IMO, it is on you to reserch the tuner before doing business with them

on the other hand...


from a business perspective

if that tuner is listed on Cobb's website then it is partially Cobb's responsibility to certify that the tuners is competent to work with their product (like Cisco/Windows certs). It's bad business to refer clients to someone that does shitty work with YOUR product. This thread is the perfect example. This guy had a bad experience with a tuner recommended by Cobb, and look where he aims his discourse. Then its word of mouth after that...

I had a bad experience buying whiteline sways for my '91 240. I delt with the vendor several times and got frustrated because they fabricated excuses and passed on bull-shit info to me as though it came from whiteline itself. When I contacted whiteline directly, they corrected my issue swiftly and at no charge, then discontinued their relationship with that vendor as they felt that vendor didn't represent the type of business whiteline wanted to be associated with.

Either way, researching the tuner thoroughly before you laid money on it would have been the move. Either that or utilize this community. There are a bunch of ppl in the area that are savvy with ATR tuning...

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by MS3inDC IMO, it is on you to reserch the tuner before doing business with them on the other hand... from a business perspective if that tuner is listed on Cobb's website then it is partially Cobb's responsibility to certify that the tuners is competent to work with their product (like Cisco/Windows certs). It's bad business to refer clients to someone that does shitty work with YOUR product. This thread is the perfect example. This guy had a bad experience with a tuner recommended by Cobb, and look where he aims his discourse. Then its word of mouth after that... I had a bad experience buying whiteline sways for my '91 240. I delt with the vendor several times and got frustrated because they fabricated excuses and passed on bull-shit info to me as though it came from whiteline itself. When I contacted whiteline directly, they corrected my issue swiftly and at no charge, then discontinued their relationship with that vendor as they felt that vendor didn't represent the type of business whiteline wanted to be associated with. Either way, researching the tuner thoroughly before you laid money on it would have been the move. Either that or utilize this community. There are a bunch of ppl in the area that are savvy with ATR tuning...

I'm pretty sure the tuners listed on cobb's site are just approved VENDORS. It would be impossible from business standpoint to be able to certify each and every tuner that wants some kind of "certification." Kinda like how I can be "microsoft certified" and not know dick about their shit.

[MS3inDC]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 I'm pretty sure the tuners listed on cobb's site are just approved VENDORS. It would be impossible from business standpoint to be able to certify each and every tuner that wants some kind of "certification." Kinda like how I can be "microsoft certified" and not know dick about their shit.

Could you say the same about a Cisco cert, or Red Hat? Ok, so microsoft may heave been a bad example, but then again, look at how many people hate microsoft. And to what is that attributed? But the point remains. OP trusted info from Cobb's website and from his perspective he got burned and posted his discontent. Do you really think he'll recommend Cobb to anyone? Who knows, but if he does it won't be confidence inspiring.

Look, I ran a store in a new and small market for 6 years. That store had a $4 billion budget. Increasing foot-traffic was just as important as retaining long time customers. Word of mouth is the most powerful advertising that anyone can do. And all I'm saying is that part, not all, the blame does fall on Cobb. If that tuner developes a bad rep using "Cobb AP Tuning Specialst" as the selling point to their business, Cobb's name gets drug through the mud as well. And Cobb is allowing him to do so...

But if you dont see it that way, fine. But people like me who have no loyalty to Cobb may now be more reluctant to go with Cobb after reading something like this. Companies do it all the time, they disassociate themselves from anything that puts them in a negative light.

[RacingToaster]

That may be however it is up to the customer to actually talk to whos doing the work. Like your vendor story, whiteline corrected the issue that was caused by a third party. It was not whitelines fault for this, but rather the other party. You cant blame whiteline for what a vendor does because you were not dealing with whiteline directly. Same hold true with cobb the OP cant blame cobb for a shitty tune done by a shitty tuner. You always got to talk to the people who are going to work on your car order parts etc etc BEFORE you deal with them. YOU have to do the leg work, and also remember cobb supports other cars than us. A tuner that uses cobb may be able to do EVO, Subies, or what ever well but maybe not our car since they have never done one. AGAIN it goes back to YOU finding these things out about the tuner.