Stock TMIC on CS Turbo

[achulz]

Stupid question, and yes a stupid decision by me.

I know I need a better intercooler, I have literally everything else in supporting mods for my CS turbo. But I still have the stock TMIC. My BATs have been within reason, I haven't gotten around to upgrading it yet, as I have been getting all of the other parts needed. The intercooler setup and a new BPV are the last things on my mod list.

Should I go with a better TMIC or a small FMIC setup? I do not want to purchase (or fabricate) a new front crash bar, so if I end up with FMIC it would be a smaller core. I was looking at the Corksport TMIC or CP-E TMIC. That or the CX Racing FMIC, since it's about the same price as the TMIC.

And, can someone explain how I am restricting myself by using the stock TMIC? I understand it does not flow nearly as well as these aftermarket intercoolers but it at least does it's job of keeping BATs down (for me, all I do is roll race so it gets lots of airflow). Will it really make that big of difference considering I already have a big turbo and all the other supporting mods?

[speed23]

Stock TMIC has about 4 psi pressure drop before and after. Aftermarket is about 2psi. But since you have a bigger turbo that doesnt matter so much as you can just turn up the boost. If not heat soaking from a roll then maybe not absolutely needed. Stock one does cool well until it heatsoaks.

[tegxsi]

There is not enough thermal mass so the stock TMIC heatsoaks easily when you push it hard. What temperatures are you logging with the stock TMIC?

You can always do CXracing piping + TR6 IC + JBR brackets and retain the stock crash bar.

Look around for used parts. I was lucky to find JBR piping + crash bar and TR8 for less than above.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by tegxsi There is not enough thermal mass so the stock TMIC heatsoaks easily when you push it hard. What temperatures are you logging with the stock TMIC? You can always do CXracing piping + TR6 IC + JBR brackets and retain the stock crash bar. Look around for used parts. I was lucky to find JBR piping + crash bar and TR8 for less than above.

According to my WOT pulls, 118.4F is the max. With ambient temp of 100.4F (I live in Texas).

What's the advantage of the TR6 vs the intercooler that comes with the CX Racing kit?

[5doorsoffury]

Originally Posted by achulz Stupid question, and yes a stupid decision by me. Should I go with a better TMIC or a small FMIC setup? I do not want to purchase (or fabricate) a new front crash bar, so if I end up with FMIC it would be a smaller core. I was looking at the Corksport TMIC or CP-E TMIC. That or the CX Racing FMIC, since it's about the same price as the TMIC. And, can someone explain how I am restricting myself by using the stock TMIC?

Fuck the stock intercooler replace it. As to tmic vs fmic under 400 hp dosent fucking matter. Tmic heat soaks. Fmic fucks the boat if you hit something and it punctures it. Over 400 you need a FMIC. Treadstone tr6 fits under a gen 2 stock crash bar. ETS makes the best affordable TMIC IMHO. I have used both.

Fill a ballon thru a straw. The straw is the stock tmic. The speed the balloon fills is the hp limit of the motor. Make the straw bigger like a bubble tea straw and the ballon fills faster. Sooner or later it dosent matter how hard you blow thru the tiny straw it wont make much of a differance in how fast it blows up.

[danb]

Originally Posted by achulz According to my WOT pulls, 118.4F is the max. With ambient temp of 100.4F (I live in Texas). What's the advantage of the TR6 vs the intercooler that comes with the CX Racing kit?

Treadstone Core vs Ebay Cores before after logs?

[g00s3y]

Get the TMIC for simplicity. There are people pushing close to 500hp with a TMIC. I went with a TR8 and HTP piping for my BNR S3v2. If I could do it all over again I would just stick with an ETS TMIC.

[sharksinspace]

diaagree that tmic vs fmic under 400 isn't a difference. I went CS turbo last summer and already had CS tmic; BATs were spiking by more than 60° during a pull. I changed to a Cobb fmic and, on the same road and under the same logging conditions, gained 11whp in vdyno before adjusting the tune at all simply due to massively improved BAT. ETS or CPE tmic may fare better but jfc get rid of that stock garbage right away.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by 5doorsoffury Fuck the stock intercooler replace it. As to tmic vs fmic under 400 hp dosent fucking matter. Tmic heat soaks. Fmic fucks the boat if you hit something and it punctures it. Over 400 you need a FMIC. Treadstone tr6 fits under a gen 2 stock crash bar. ETS makes the best affordable TMIC IMHO. I have used both. Fill a ballon thru a straw. The straw is the stock tmic. The speed the balloon fills is the hp limit of the motor. Make the straw bigger like a bubble tea straw and the ballon fills faster. Sooner or later it dosent matter how hard you blow thru the tiny straw it wont make much of a differance in how fast it blows up.

Originally Posted by g00s3y Get the TMIC for simplicity. There are people pushing close to 500hp with a TMIC. I went with a TR8 and HTP piping for my BNR S3v2. If I could do it all over again I would just stick with an ETS TMIC.

Originally Posted by sharksinspace diaagree that tmic vs fmic under 400 isn't a difference. I went CS turbo last summer and already had CS tmic; BATs were spiking by more than 60° during a pull. I changed to a Cobb fmic and, on the same road and under the same logging conditions, gained 11whp in vdyno before adjusting the tune at all simply due to massively improved BAT. ETS or CPE tmic may fare better but jfc get rid of that stock garbage right away.

What if I'm aiming for exactly 400WHP? I'm still on stock internals, I want 380-400WHP on E30 mix with my CS turbo.

I like TMICs for three reasons, one for simplicity, the other to retain the hood scoop, and the other for total cost (JBR piping plus a TR6 and mounting hardware is way more expensive than even an ETS TMIC). What the hell is the point of the hood scoop if it's just going to create turbulence in the engine bay after a FMIC install?

I do see why I need a better intercooler now though. I received my second revision tune from PD, from only two WOT logs I could see my BATs quickly climbing despite going 110 MPH.

My boost target was set to 20 PSI, I only hit 16.5 PSI, not sure if that is because of the stock TMIC or because of my stock BPV leaking, which I am going to replace whether it is leaking or not.

[5doorsoffury]

ETS TMIC all the way. Very short path from turbo to TB so there very reaponsive. There simple and incase you go FMIC later on they have great resale value.

That boost differance will change when you upgrade. I reached my targets with less wgdc. So if you are having trouble now it should help out.

You should also look into meth. Meth is a hell of a drug. First you try it and it drops your bats below ambient and you get hooked.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by 5doorsoffury ETS TMIC all the way. Very short path from turbo to TB so there very reaponsive. There simple and incase you go FMIC later on they have great resale value. That boost differance will change when you upgrade. I reached my targets with less wgdc. So if you are having trouble now it should help out. You should also look into meth. Meth is a hell of a drug. First you try it and it drops your bats below ambient and you get hooked.

Here I am going straight to E85....

I’ve considered meth but I don’t like how much cost it adds for a reliable set up. Sure I can get a cheap kit and make it work but I would be putting my engine at a much higher risk of blowing up. Add in the cost of a good system, fail safe, etc. and things start to add up really quick.

[sharksinspace]

ETS for sale for a crazy low price on fb. Seller is legit.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by sharksinspace ETS for sale for a crazy low price on fb. Seller is legit.

Sent him a message. I saw a couple of other TMICs, including a really beat up ETS for $300 and a pretty new C-PE for $300.

Why does everyone recommend the ETS? Isn't the C-PE the same thickness?

[Fstrnyou]

Gen1: FMIC
Gen2: TMIC

Running 22psi on my CS turbo is hitting 160 degree BATS at the end of a 4th gear pull with mid 90's ambient temps...and that's with the CP-e TMIC.

TMICs, even upgraded ones, are purely worthless for cooling on MS6's and GenJuans.

The flow difference from stock to CP-e was huge. I had to pull quite a bit of WGDC because the turbo wasn't having to work as hard to push the air through.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Gen1: FMIC Gen2: TMIC Running 22psi on my CS turbo is hitting 160 degree BATS at the end of a 4th gear pull with mid 90's ambient temps...and that's with the CP-e TMIC. TMICs, even upgraded ones, are purely worthless for cooling on MS6's and GenJuans. The flow difference from stock to CP-e was huge. I had to pull quite a bit of WGDC because the turbo wasn't having to work as hard to push the air through.

Yeah I'm sitting at 80% WGDC at 18.5 PSI. I definitely need to upgrade to at least a TMIC to decrease that WGDC.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by achulz Yeah I'm sitting at 80% WGDC at 18.5 PSI. I definitely need to upgrade to at least a TMIC to decrease that WGDC.

Not directly comparable, but on a stock K04 with an ETS TMIC, 3" Intake, & Test Pipe, I'm boosting 20psi mid range tapering to 16.5 psi @ redline with about 80 WGDC. Unless it's crazy hot out here in Florida, in which case WGDC could be as much as 92 to hold boost. But at 70-80 degree weather,hovers around 80.

I saw you have a lot of corksport mods, do you want to use their TMIC to match everything else?

No but seriously, think about long term goals and benefits, as there are a lot of Intercooler upgrade options. CP-E & Corksport are good budget options, but after my research, it seemed like ETS was the best. I bought one new with a coupon code so I wouldn't have to worry about any existing damage, but it was still about $500. That being said, I'm very glad I did.

TMIC vs FMIC is a whole different can of worms. A good FMIC will cool better especially in hot environments and will prevent engine caused heat-soak. An after market Top Mount is far easier to swap and supposedly has better throttle response.

No right or wrong answer, depends on goals, but they're all better than stock.

[sharksinspace]

fwiw, i didn't notice any adverse change in throttle response when i swapped cs tmic for cobb fmic. just sweet, sweet BAT relief.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by sharksinspace fwiw, i didn't notice any adverse change in throttle response when i swapped cs tmic for cobb fmic. just sweet, sweet BAT relief.

Good to hear, I've heard mixed feedback on that, which is why I say "supposedly", lol. I personally have never had an FMIC, so I have no personal experience in the matter. But I know the ETS TMIC is way better than stock for sure! But for lowest possible BATs, FMIC FTW!

[Fstrnyou]

Originally Posted by Carskick But for lowest possible BATs, FMIC FTW!

Secondary cooling aside (meth), that's fairly accurate.

I'm working on a W2A setup that I'm hoping does a pretty good job. But I've seen several W2A attempts on this forum that were far less than stellar. I won't let it get me down though.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Gen1: FMIC Gen2: TMIC Running 22psi on my CS turbo is hitting 160 degree BATS at the end of a 4th gear pull with mid 90's ambient temps...and that's with the CP-e TMIC. TMICs, even upgraded ones, are purely worthless for cooling on MS6's and GenJuans. The flow difference from stock to CP-e was huge. I had to pull quite a bit of WGDC because the turbo wasn't having to work as hard to push the air through.

Interesting. My K04 @ 20psi to 16.5psi taper isn't getting over 160 degree BATs in the mid 90s. After successive 4th gear pulls in mid-90 degree weather, I'm in the 130's or 140s. I only get over 160 if I idle for extended periods, in which case it gets to 170 or so. Then cools back down once I get moving. This is gen juan MS3.

I guess this could be the difference between ETS & CP-E or the CS Turbo @ 22PSI is making far more heat than my K04. Or a combination of both.

[Fstrnyou]

From K04 to CS, I was able to run a few more PSI and have the same/similar BATs. When I changed to the CP-e TMIC, I could add another couple PSI and have the same/similar BATs.

I think the difference here is, I don't taper my boost. I'm full target pressure from 4k to 6500.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou From K04 to CS, I was able to run a few more PSI and have the same/similar BATs. When I changed to the CP-e TMIC, I could add another couple PSI and have the same/similar BATs. I think the difference here is, I don't taper my boost. I'm full target pressure from 4k to 6500.

So are your BATs in the 130s to 140s in the mid range and it climbs to 160 at redline?

[Fstrnyou]

Ya, sounds about right. I can check logs tonight and verify the midrange BATs.
K04: 18psi
CS: 20psi
CP-e: 22psi
All on pump 93 (E10).

[kTaLgsTo]

I have an ETS for sale gen pu, put on car, basically test drove it.and took off. Asking 350 shipped. Is pristine, can get better pictures of it. But it's in the for sale section

I would do 340.00 shipped to absorb some of your vip access. Or find it on Facebook, I posted there too.

[Fstrnyou]

Log attached.
It's a bit deceiving with my BAT's starting off in the 130's. I think I had just recently been sitting at a stop light. After leaving the light, I went around a clover leaf to get on the interstate. At which point I started logging my 4th gear "merge technique". Shifted a little early but decided to send it in 5th for a little bit. The boost taper you see is because I have load being above 140 degree BATs.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Log attached. It's a bit deceiving with my BAT's starting off in the 130's. I think I had just recently been sitting at a stop light. After leaving the light, I went around a clover leaf to get on the interstate. At which point I started logging my 4th gear "merge technique". Shifted a little early but decided to send it in 5th for a little bit. The boost taper you see is because I have load being above 140 degree BATs.

Looks pretty good, lots of flow through that CPE. I have the same BATs with my stock TMIC but it climbs much faster and the boost is lower because of the flow. I think I'm going to go with a TMIC, I mainly am after more flow because my WGDC is really high.

[Fstrnyou]

You could add some preload to your wastegate if you want to run lower WGDC....but your baseline boost will be higher. In that log, you'll see that my WGDC drops to zero by 6k-ish and I'm still at 16-17psi.

[achulz]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou You could add some preload to your wastegate if you want to run lower WGDC....but your baseline boost will be higher. In that log, you'll see that my WGDC drops to zero by 6k-ish and I'm still at 16-17psi.

Does the preload actually let you lower the WGDC? I understand the turbo is working a lot harder to compensate for the lack of flow but will it give me more boost in the end?

[Fstrnyou]

You can make a small increase in preload without too much issue but you can only go so far before problems begin. Increasing the preload is squeezing the wastegate spring which takes more pressure to get it moving (higher boost). However, because you're squeezing the spring and making it effectively shorter, the amount of travel to coil bind is less. Go too far and your wastegate might barely open at all.

Boost creep is a sign of a wastegate port that's too small or too much wastegate preload. With the preload I was running, I was tapering off WGDC in the upper RPM range to maintain boost targets. WGDC going down as RPMs go up is literally boost creep compensation. I didn't see that phenomenon until I installed the CP-e TMIC. So, if you're going for an upgraded intercooler, I'd leave your wastegate preload alone for now to see how it goes. If it turns out that your WGDC is still kinda high, then try adjusting the wastegate preload.

Also, consult your tuner. You can't just tighten up the preload and not adjust the WGDC tables.

[5doorsoffury]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou You could add some preload to your wastegate if you want to run lower WGDC..

Do not do this. Dont start screwing with your wastegate. If its not broken dont fux with it.... your tune will loose its shit when the wastegate is changed with out a tune change. Remember the best 2 acronyms. RTFM and KISS.

ETS is the shit. There are 2 models of thickness. There is the 3.25" thickness models and the much older 3.5" thick models. I had the 3.5" and it fit great. Was even able to get it to work with the st mani.
I wouldnt pay more then 300+ shipping for one. Hell you could get a cs mani and tmic then you will be able to flow even more. All the flow mods to the head allows for greater efficiency. Raising the efficiency means you need less boost to make power and allowing more boost to be run. The ported intake mani netted me 1.5-2 psi and the intercooler got me a solid 1.5-2 psi as well.

[Carskick]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Log attached. It's a bit deceiving with my BAT's starting off in the 130's. I think I had just recently been sitting at a stop light. After leaving the light, I went around a clover leaf to get on the interstate. At which point I started logging my 4th gear "merge technique". Shifted a little early but decided to send it in 5th for a little bit. The boost taper you see is because I have load being above 140 degree BATs.

Sorry for the delayed response, been crazy busy last week. In the middle of selling my house and buying a new one. Craziness!

Anyways, thanks for posting. I find it interesting to compare logs of different setups! I tried to find my closest heat soaked log for comparison sake. Mine seemed to drop from a similar starting BAT and then didn't climb as high. This is one of my early revisions still running rich and on 93, but that shouldn't affect BATs too much. It was 95 degrees and this was the last run after about 5 or 6 3rd/4th gear pulls. This one pretty well represents my "worst case scenario."

I also attached a much more recent run from 2 months ago that is my final E33 tune just for comparison sake if anyone is interested. It was done in probably 80 something degree weather, so BATs are lower as well.

I know your boost was tapering due to BATs, but that gives a close comparison to my K04 boost curve. I'm just surprised your BATs are that much higher on a larger turbo at similar boost. I wonder if it's just the intercooler difference. Is the ETS really better than the CP-e?