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 Old 05-11-2011, 03:51 PM   #1121
 
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I just ordered the DO stage 2 kit and am hoping to spray for a decent amount of time.

Am I missing something in the ability to spray @ low boost to max?
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 Old 05-11-2011, 03:57 PM   #1122
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nah, I was speaking about over spraying meth to cool down a turbo that you are trying to push out of its efficiency range. Doing this with a nozzle that otherwise would be too large may cause some bogging down in the lower RPM/PSI range if you start the spray at the same time as a properly sized nozzle.

I am purely speculating here.

The progressive controller allows for some flexibility in this regard.

I hope you got at least a 4 and 5 nozzle and not the suggested 3 for a K04
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 Old 05-11-2011, 03:58 PM   #1123
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
nah, I was speaking about over spraying meth to cool down a turbo that you are trying to push out of its efficiency range. Doing this with a nozzle that otherwise would be too large may cause some bogging down in the lower RPM/PSI range if you start the spray at the same time as a properly sized nozzle.

I am purely speculating here.

The progressive controller allows for some flexibility in this regard.

I hope you got at least a 4 and 5 nozzle and not the suggested 3 for a K04
I'm going to be switching to a 2 hopefully soon....



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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:00 PM   #1124
 
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So for a k04 we should go with a 4 or 5 instead of the 3?
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:01 PM   #1125
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I think 8-9 would be my current "sweet spot" So to get there would require a 10 and some controller configuration.
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:01 PM   #1126
 
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
nah, I was speaking about over spraying meth to cool down a turbo that you are trying to push out of its efficiency range. Doing this with a nozzle that otherwise would be too large may cause some bogging down in the lower RPM/PSI range if you start the spray at the same time as a properly sized nozzle.

I am purely speculating here.

The progressive controller allows for some flexibility in this regard.

I hope you got at least a 4 and 5 nozzle and not the suggested 3 for a K04
Now you tell me.

I looked @ the chart, and assumed too much I guess.

Nozzles are the least of my worries before install. LOL

Thanks for the heads up.

This will be my first experience with meth, although I've been trying to read as much as possible. I'm not looking to make huge power over my current tune, but I'm @ a loss for a decent front mount (I'm starting to join the CP-E non-fan club), and summer is coming.
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:02 PM   #1127
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
but I'm @ a loss for a decent front mount (I'm starting to join the CP-E non-fan club), and summer is coming.
I wish turboxs made one for you guys
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:04 PM   #1128
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WMI > IC for many reasons. you need both to be sure but WMI is pure win.

in my experience the DO3/M3 nozzle didn't provide me with much afr shift on my K04/ETS TMIC setup. The 4 was the bottom bar for me.

If anyone want's a 3 I have one so order your kit with a 4/5 and if you want to nozzle down hit me up.
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:06 PM   #1129
 
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Originally Posted by jwilkins88 View Post
I wish turboxs made one for you guys
I would even go as far as to pay up for a Cobb (gen2 is going to be released, but no eta as of now), but I refuse to do any more business with CP-E.

I have to admit, we are starting to get decent gen2 support, but I have to be patient (another of my character flaws).

I would be down for a turbo XS, and am really only concerned with crash bar modification.

I think the job can be done cooling wise without changing the crash bar, but I am no engineer.
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:10 PM   #1130

 
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For those that care, it appears boost based map has better boost control than a load based one (duh). I'm spiking higher than I want on my tune but hitting just shy of the load numbers I'm requesting in the AP. Couple of load based third gear logs and a 3rd to 4th shift with an old boost based log showing multiple shifts.

I guess I need to figure out if I want consistent output or consistent boost.

Edit:
On the subject of intercoolers, anyone considering an air/water setup?
Attached Files
File Type: csv 3rd gear 1.csv (2.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: csv 3rd gear 2.csv (1.4 KB, 0 views)
File Type: csv 3-4 shift.csv (1.7 KB, 0 views)
File Type: csv boost tune.csv (2.5 KB, 0 views)
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:18 PM   #1131
 
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Originally Posted by Enki View Post
For those that care, it appears boost based map has better boost control than a load based one (duh). I'm spiking higher than I want on my tune but hitting just shy of the load numbers I'm requesting in the AP. Couple of load based third gear logs and a 3rd to 4th shift with an old boost based log showing multiple shifts.

I guess I need to figure out if I want consistent output or consistent boost.

Edit:
On the subject of intercoolers, anyone considering an air/water setup?
I think Dano has the idea when he says that psi tuning is where it is at, (consistency issues aside), if you have a map for changing weather conditions.


@Enki,

I took the liberty of converting your logs below...
Attached Files
File Type: xls enki1.xls (22.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: xls enki2.xls (19.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: xls enki3.xls (21.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: xls enki4.xls (23.0 KB, 0 views)
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:50 PM   #1132

 
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Thanks for the conversion, but I think every Excel type app can read CSVs dude.
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 Old 05-11-2011, 04:54 PM   #1133
 
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Originally Posted by Enki View Post
Thanks for the conversion, but I think every Excel type app can read CSVs dude.
@Enki , If the user of the program is versed in converting text to columns using a delimiter, they would probably have a look @ the logs.

Your welcome for the trl - x gear tip btw.

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 Old 05-11-2011, 05:32 PM   #1134
 
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Originally Posted by manelscout4life View Post
Did changing your BD table fix this?
I have not tried yet, It will have to wait until the weeked. Ill let you know the results soon.
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 Old 05-11-2011, 06:06 PM   #1135
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
IDK the trouble with the nozzle up approach is too much meth down low. Even on a progressive controller you want SOME spray around 8-10 PSI and still want full spray before max PSI. If you move that entire window up the PSI curve you lose spray in the lower ranges.

I know you run off of MAF but it would be similar right?

I guess with enough controller tuning it could be done.

Maybe a better approach is E85 mix in your tank for the power aspect and some sort of H2O/Meth mix in the WMI tank.

or just turbo up LOL

Have you tried the M10 yet? Worst case if you have a bit of a rich blip if you get into boost at lower RPM (and thus lower massflow), but this is very quickly diluted as RPMs rise.

I like triggering off of the MAF signal better, because it is looking at the actual process variable of interest with respect to impact on fueling. Thus, it can much more effectively tune around the rich spot, but there are limits. I have had no issues with the M7 nozzle turning on as low as 3.1v on the MAF (~80g/s), and could easily increase to ~110 g/s if I upsized to the M10 without impacting the fueling at the turnon.

I am currently doing the ~25% ethanol in gas tank + 100% meth with an M7...My car is officially an alcoholic... LOL
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 Old 05-11-2011, 06:35 PM   #1136
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Word!!

Haven't tried the 10 yet but will need it for summer

I'll get off my ass and order one tomorrow. Been threatening to do it for months now LOL.
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 Old 05-12-2011, 06:44 PM   #1137
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Originally Posted by atvfreek View Post
cld12pk2go do you have a log we can look at too.... You are running some serious timing in the higher RPM. Thanks!
Here is a log from today.

Looks like 16° up top.

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 Old 05-13-2011, 06:11 PM   #1138
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I think everyone would agree that 12pk has pushed the K04 and his setup to the limits. Squeezed every ounce of HP out of it and makes it look pretty to boot
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 Old 05-13-2011, 07:05 PM   #1139
 
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Now that it's getting hotter, I'm trying to figure out how I can lower boost at higher BAT's like we could load tuning using the High BAT and Norm BAT requested load tables. With boost tuning, it doesn't seem like there are equivalent tables to do the same thing.
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 Old 05-13-2011, 08:23 PM   #1140

 
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Actually, they still kick in; at least in my gen 1 they do.
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Yeah high BAT tables should still neuter your boost, when/if Cobb successfully separates the load/boost logic that may not be the case though.

Has anyone tried playing with the 'WG Duty - IAT Comp'? If any of the ambient values line up with what you would consider hot that may apply, or possibly it only applies to the initial duty cycle before the boost dynamic logic kicks in..
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 Old 05-14-2011, 08:37 PM   #1142
 
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Originally Posted by evidence View Post
Has anyone tried playing with the 'WG Duty - IAT Comp'? If any of the ambient values line up with what you would consider hot that may apply, or possibly it only applies to the initial duty cycle before the boost dynamic logic kicks in..
I see that table being used to compensate for higher intake temps allowing you to increase WGDC's when it gets hotter to maintain boost, but I guess it can be used the opposite way. That's not how it's used from factory though.
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 Old 05-14-2011, 08:53 PM   #1143
 
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So, is it safe to conservatively manipulate the vvt table? It was suggested by Christian that this could bs the reason that my 2871 is spoiling slowly.

I read atr andthey don't seem to causation against this as much as the manipulation of some other tables. As such, I obtained a genpoo 2871 IWG map tuned by Christian (thx bwallace) which was less modded than me and applied his vvt table Which at most was ten degrees more aggresivethan mine.

Do u guys feel that it is safe to continue to adjust these slightly, or could I mess something up big time? I also added a touch of fuel as it mentioned that its affect on other parameters was what I had to watch out for... KR did not increase and the engine is supposed to have a pretty effective safe guard against adding too much vvt.

On a side note (now it's raining today so logging is tougher), it seems that these adjustments have already shaved 200+rpm off of spool up!!! So I wonder if an additional 5-10° would continue to help?
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 Old 05-16-2011, 03:04 PM   #1144
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Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 View Post
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So, is it safe to conservatively manipulate the vvt table? It was suggested by Christian that this could bs the reason that my 2871 is spoiling slowly.

I read atr andthey don't seem to causation against this as much as the manipulation of some other tables. As such, I obtained a genpoo 2871 IWG map tuned by Christian (thx bwallace) which was less modded than me and applied his vvt table Which at most was ten degrees more aggresivethan mine.

Do u guys feel that it is safe to continue to adjust these slightly, or could I mess something up big time? I also added a touch of fuel as it mentioned that its affect on other parameters was what I had to watch out for... KR did not increase and the engine is supposed to have a pretty effective safe guard against adding too much vvt.

On a side note (now it's raining today so logging is tougher), it seems that these adjustments have already shaved 200+rpm off of spool up!!! So I wonder if an additional 5-10° would continue to help?
You really need a dyno to effectively modify the VVT, but in "general" you want the intake camshaft advanced at lower rpms (<3500) to increase torque and reduce it to zero (or so...) as the revs come up. Here are some values that work well for my BNR 2871 at Loads 2.00 and up. With WG only(no help from EBCS), it spools to up to 10psi by ~2600 rpms.

Basically if the turbo fully spooled, you really don't need or want any intake cam advance as the DI setup puts the fuel inside the CC unlike a port injected or carbed car where you need the fuel/air mixture to flow in, so the highly pressurized manifold air is all thats needed to fill the CC.

Note that the 30 values are the OEM settings, so you could advance a bit more if you wanted, but be careful of popping the injector seals with too much CC pressure...


Code:
 0.00	30.00	30.00	30.00	30.00	30.00	15.00	15.00	15.00	5.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00
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 Old 05-16-2011, 03:37 PM   #1145
 
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Jesus! ^^^ i guess that is why u are orange. Thanks a ton for not only giving me the values but adding the detailed explanation of why to do it
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 Old 05-16-2011, 03:40 PM   #1146
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hahaha

there are deff different shades of orange....Forzda's is one of the brightest shades....
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http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...38/#post857582
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 Old 05-18-2011, 01:38 PM   #1148
 
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At last!!!!!!!!!!!!

It appears my KR is GONE! I spent some time yesterday under the hood. Pulled the TMIC off, stretched all the coil springs, tightened everything I could find (nothing seemed loose though..), switched my map over to 91 Oct Ign tables, and removed the ECU cover and battery box cover, both of which were missing a clip so they were all loose and whatnot.

Granted, I did a lot of things at once but from this morning and this afternoon's logs, it appears my KR is finally gone.

I'd gone to 91 Oct map before and it didn't change anything so I think I can rule that out. I'm using the same gas as I have been the last month (except when i thought I was getting bad gas), so that isn't it.

I'm not sure if the ECU box and battery cover being lose could actually show up as KR or not...but who knows.

My data logs...


Question is. In the afternoon, in 84*, it looks like I'm pegging out my WGDC starting at 5200-5300 RPM and up.

Is this the stock TMIC restricting me at this point? Thoughts?
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File Type: xls Datadump 5-17-2011 D04 72 Deg.xls (52.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: xls Data Dump 5-18-2011 Afternoon D04 84 Deg.xls (43.0 KB, 0 views)
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Yes. The stock tmic has a massive pressure drop across it at high flowrates. You would lower WGDC significantly by swapping it out and not upping your boost targets.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 03:39 PM   #1150
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Unless you have my car.

I swapped the stocker out for a corksport TMIC, and either I had a freakishly good stock TMIC, or I don't know what. I don't see any extra boost at max wgdc, and it doesn't look like my observed wgdc has changed at all from pre- to post- install.

Bah humbug.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 06:41 PM   #1152
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aren't OE ICs all fin type....fin type < bar/plate.

IIRC my OE was fin but its been a few years LOL.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 06:57 PM   #1153
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
aren't OE ICs all fin type....fin type < bar/plate.

IIRC my OE was fin but its been a few years LOL.
Yeah, the OEMs are tube/fin. All TMIC are not created the same either... IDK why 3eak didn't see any difference, but I checked mine with boost gauge on the WG only back in the day to verify the performance. The OEM TMIC dropped ~3psi compared to the ETS 3.25 TMIC with no change in observed BAT.

What this means is that the OEM TMIC is very good at cooling the air because it slows it down (a LOT of drag) to maintain contact longer HOWEVER the ETS is just as good at cooling the air, only much more efficient with less "drag".

The change in WGDC will not be drastic, it will be subtle, but measurable.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 07:10 PM   #1154

 
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Man my stock intercooler can't see 4th gear from a launch without climbing up to 140 degrees (from a standing 100). I've even cut out the mesh on the stock cover. The last time I tried to run it up in 6th, it fell on its face because the BAT got so high it switched load targets.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 08:49 PM   #1155
 
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Ok, so I keep thinking that I am getting this under control, and then I hit another wall. I have improved spool time (especially with the vvt table) and in 4th gear it is fine. I spool just after 3200... cool. 3rd, still sucks and I'm spooling at 3600 if I start at 2800 and 4000+ if I start at 3200!!!

So I started comparing the map that bwallace sent me (2871, dp, ebcs, stock boost control and stock tmic) and I got to an ignition table that I didn't recognize. Apparently it is not in the gen 1 atr and it is not listed in the gen2 online tuning guide.

Has anyone heard of the IGNITION TABLES: IGN TBLS (UNK)?

I would have just skipped over it, but mine is drastically different than his. I want to copy and paste his values to see if it helps me but I don't want to blow my car up... imagine that. I can't think of why it could hurt (since his car is less modded than mine), but I know it's not always that simple.

Here are photos of his and mine:

EDIT: I have a 2871 too, but I started my tuning from an ots stage 2 map with fmic, dp, intake tih and hpfp
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 Old 05-18-2011, 09:03 PM   #1156

 
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I would have to look at the timing tables in ATR to figure out which is which, but the "donated" table is significantly more retarded than the one you are using, so I think its safe. If you want to figure out which table its following, log the spark advance and compare it to the tables. If you are above a 2.0 load its pretty simple.

Remember, retarding timing is a good way to get spool time decreased.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 09:53 PM   #1157
 
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I don't want to go out to do a full pull at night, so I'll do more research tomorrow to see how it affects the rest of the pull, but the effect on spool up is as follows

Earlier today 3rd gear: spool up took 823rpm measured by: -.58psi at 3268 to 18.85psi at 4091.

Tonight after changes 3rd gear: spool up took 642rpm measured by: -1.31psi at 3138 to 19.72 at 3780... It was actually a bit less than that but that was the best point to get a good measurement... the next value was 2.9psi for a starting point.

Implementing the above table was the only difference between these two runs... The difference in final boost is due to my BD table I believe. I have it a bit too aggressive for ebcs, but earlier today while doing logs, I noticed more over boost with it, but quicker spool time.

So, it appears that this table is affecting spool time on my car... especially because the range is bigger on tonight's pull, yet the rpms are still less by 181! I don't want to jump to conclusions yet, as every time that I do, they end up being wrong, so I will look into this tomorrow...

Is this table used for spool up only or something on gen2s? IDK if that is completely absurd, but judging by those conservative values in the table, I would think that there is no way that this could be used for the whole pull... shit, I really should have said fuck it, and gotten a whole pull.

Unfortunately, if this is one key to my problem, I have no idea how to fine tune it

I'm sure no one does, but let me know if you want to see the logs.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 10:03 PM   #1158
 
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Ok, I will post the log from tonight, as I just went back and noticed that my afr's are a bit weird... My afrs are set at 11.8. They peak at 12.05 and dip to 11.47, but w/o kr, I never see 10s or 12.35+.

Note that this log has two spool ups on it, but I was not doing a whole pull.
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog47.csv (11.8 KB, 0 views)
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 Old 05-18-2011, 10:11 PM   #1159

 
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Your WGDC is way low. You are nowhere near maxing it out. Up the WGDC in the spool area. I know you said it doesn't seem to help and you are using the 3 port, but thats where I would go first. Keep that WG slammed shut.
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 Old 05-18-2011, 10:19 PM   #1160
 
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What do you think about everything else? Could the afrs be because I just flashed the map... I was scanning the gen2 atr section the other day, and i thought that I remembered someone saying it takes a few minutes for that shit to settle.

Anyway, my wgdc is deceiving because my WGA is really tight and my wg is ported (I can hold 20+psi at 6000rpm with 13wgdc in atr). I can try to do that for like 2500 or so, but if I do it at 3000+ I end up with abig spike because the values in atr drop from 26 to 16 at 3500. I also feel like I've tried it a bunch, but maybe I've changed enough since last time so maybe it will have a different effect... I'll give it a try.
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